From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 29856 invoked from network); 16 Jun 2023 02:58:03 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 16 Jun 2023 02:58:03 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EEB142562; Fri, 16 Jun 2023 12:58:01 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ej1-x62c.google.com (mail-ej1-x62c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::62c]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 30B184254C for ; Fri, 16 Jun 2023 12:57:53 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ej1-x62c.google.com with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-977ed383b8aso24448566b.3 for ; Thu, 15 Jun 2023 19:57:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1686884271; x=1689476271; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=FGBITluBqXdkjDxw3RmGn/wE/p229pepbZWAyOmNVCQ=; b=VUrUlIYl0Rrvn/KsvWN1mrovLDXdwPwZaKsC0vGMSrYBZYPDcP3FPN7X0m7ZO9u0gf 6csbdF11lfwcGHCY6C5o5ezvTlMpF+OhCQC0HHn/i+ldTJQCcgQaAO8/NeRbvWB0p5rs n6M9NpC0IkJAZVvIYrHAnnPm79nzEqoCgE2SnqdDy4qriAtjCkERPVCyJ1ZoLJkYTEyw WN8UtYK3W9wHFkeqegcHbC13dI931LFCvbnLgNPjJ5KILarorAXWEzTtiGQ1In8PrYf3 zBqQZdquwEFpDZfad6pPZTP/hyB64xj7jsNZsli3D0NpCJCsihk2a54MAt6o1aHgpgFq HD+g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1686884271; x=1689476271; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=FGBITluBqXdkjDxw3RmGn/wE/p229pepbZWAyOmNVCQ=; b=BmT9Qh4/fu2FPTvmbgu3NdDtUUYpMofBD1HfUk0/0/mwVWdlxHGoEbxfM562HjJEJP cOANQk0ng/y+UlI2nnIFsc36X/QVefhPcH/lCWmDIkLHXoxgIk4BrRxXZsg9UV5SM41t jpqLYHSht3bAZ82oDJyr8VFcTERdkF9aIlgiQ0bBcfhNZqksO4Kxg5fBsK/acmF8MzRI s5nY6MBdHfs0L03UMNYNcdlPsWTGD1DiR29Uhtb3X/HzAOJR0ZAX0h1WeEcpYOQ85IrW hXjsEpowH89fbhJRzk8uy7bcqyapOHeNwzabABzUoe4MNFU5mE8IVE7FdSsfYowTkmBN To4w== X-Gm-Message-State: AC+VfDwjxYDkM4ahFc0xl9CIGqPbxqtLwCayj1iqMgyLlSCeBHvvAAkI OD+b5uvU2O5SbWxulT7FmvcIQl2v3m1phP3zZkk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACHHUZ4BI1hRGp4m4gyy68qxXDtV9woG6wlm/uMPk8T1O64WHMTHsje25zS70+AHOsgRhuc/1zILQZ7iUGKeuYBb7zQ= X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:6d0e:b0:982:c2ef:19ae with SMTP id sa14-20020a1709076d0e00b00982c2ef19aemr743252ejc.10.1686884271186; Thu, 15 Jun 2023 19:57:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Adam Thornton Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2023 19:57:39 -0700 Message-ID: To: Warner Losh Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c2e59205fe365950" Message-ID-Hash: 24QW5CZVCKT4DUTBMVHN7GMWF3YNVDED X-Message-ID-Hash: 24QW5CZVCKT4DUTBMVHN7GMWF3YNVDED X-MailFrom: athornton@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: segaloco , COFF X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [COFF] Re: White Backgrounds on GUIs after Dark Backgrounds on Terminals? List-Id: Computer Old Farts Forum Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000c2e59205fe365950 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would, however, assume that given that there's bleed (or maybe it's "bloom"? IDK) on a CRT, light-on-dark is more readable. I think Dark Mode is just because the kids these days have become troglodytes whose only interaction with other beings is mediated through their screens, and they keep themselves in the dark because the light, it burns us, it burns us, my precioussss. At least I no longer have to worry about them getting off my lawn. On Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 6:25=E2=80=AFPM Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Thu, Jun 15, 2023, 2:56 PM segaloco via COFF wrote: > >> Good afternoon everyone. I've been thinking about the color/contrast >> landscape of computing today and have a bit of a nebulous quandary that = I >> wonder if anyone would have some insight on. >> >> So terminals, they started as typewriters with extra steps, a white piec= e >> of paper on a reel being stamped with dark ink to provide feedback from = the >> machine. When video terminals hit the market, the display was a black >> screen with white, orange, green, or whatever other color of phosphor th= ey >> bothered to smear on the surface of the tube. Presumably this display st= yle >> was chosen as on a CRT, you're only lighting phosphor where there is >> actually an image, unlike the LCD screens of today. So there was a compl= ete >> contrast shift from dark letters on white paper to light letters on an >> otherwise unlit pane of glass. >> > > Many terminal had a reverse video setting even in advance of the graphica= l > interfaces > > Step forward to graphical systems and windows on the Alto? Light >> background with dark text. >> Windows on the Macintosh? Light background with dark text. >> Windows on MS Windows? Light backgrounds with dark text. >> Default HTML rendering in browsers? Light backgrounds with dark text. >> > > You can add x10/x11 to the early list... as well as decwindows on the VAX > station ii era... > > Fast forward to today, and it seems that dark themes are all the rage, >> light characters on an otherwise dark background. This would've made so >> much sense during the CRT era as every part of the screen representing a >> black pixel is getting no drawing, but when CRTs were king, the predomin= ant >> visual style was dark on light, like a piece of paper, rather than light= on >> dark, like a video terminal. Now in the day and age of LCDs, where every >> pixel is on regardless, now we're finally flipping the script and puttin= g >> light characters on dark backgrounds, long after any hardware benefit (t= hat >> I'm aware of) would be attained by minimizing the amount of "lit surface= " >> on the screen. >> >> Anyone know if this has all been coincidental or if the decision for >> graphical user interfaces and such to predominantly use white/light colo= rs >> for backgrounds was a relatively intentional measure around the industry= ? >> Or is it really just that that's how Xerox's system looked and it was al= l >> domino effect after that? At the end of the day I'm really just finding >> myself puzzling why computing jumped into the minimalism seen on termina= l >> screens, keeping from driving CRTs super hard but then when GUIs first >> started appearing, they didn't just organically align with what was the >> most efficient for a CRT. I recognize this is based largely in subjectiv= e >> views of how something should look too, so not really expecting a "Perso= n >> XYZ authoritatively decided on that GUI elements shall >> overwhelmingly only be dark on light", just some thoughts on how we got >> going down this path with color schemes in computing. Thanks all! >> > > Dark on light was to mimic paper. > > I'm also skeptical that light on dark uses less power or was easier to > implement except maybe in the very earliest vector displays... > > Warner > > - Matt G. >> >> --000000000000c2e59205fe365950 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I would, however, assume that given that there's = bleed (or maybe it's "bloom"?=C2=A0 IDK) on a CRT, light-on-d= ark is more readable.

I think Dark Mode is just be= cause the kids these days have become troglodytes whose only interaction wi= th other beings is mediated through their screens, and they keep themselves= in the dark because the light, it burns us, it burns us, my precioussss.

At least I no longer have to worry about them getti= ng off my lawn.

On Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 6:25=E2=80=AFPM Warner Los= h <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:


= On Thu, Jun 15, 2023, 2:56 PM segaloco via COFF <coff@tuhs.org> wrote:
Good afternoon everyone. I've= been thinking about the color/contrast landscape of computing today and ha= ve a bit of a nebulous quandary that I wonder if anyone would have some ins= ight on.

So terminals, they started as typewriters with ex= tra steps, a white piece of paper on a reel being stamped with dark ink to = provide feedback from the machine. When video terminals hit the market, the= display was a black screen with white, orange, green, or whatever other co= lor of phosphor they bothered to smear on the surface of the tube. Presumab= ly this display style was chosen as on a CRT, you're only lighting phos= phor where there is actually an image, unlike the LCD screens of today. So = there was a complete contrast shift from dark letters on white paper to lig= ht letters on an otherwise unlit pane of glass.

Many terminal had a revers= e video setting even in advance of the graphical interfaces

Step forward to graphical systems = and windows on the Alto? Light background with dark text.
Windows o= n the Macintosh? Light background with dark text.
Windows on MS Windo= ws? Light backgrounds with dark text.
Default HTML rendering in brows= ers? Light backgrounds with dark text.

You can add x10/x11 to the early li= st... as well as decwindows on the VAX station ii era...

Fast forward to today, and it seems tha= t dark themes are all the rage, light characters on an otherwise dark backg= round. This would've made so much sense during the CRT era as every par= t of the screen representing a black pixel is getting no drawing, but when = CRTs were king, the predominant visual style was dark on light, like a piec= e of paper, rather than light on dark, like a video terminal. Now in the da= y and age of LCDs, where every pixel is on regardless, now we're finall= y flipping the script and putting light characters on dark backgrounds, lon= g after any hardware benefit (that I'm aware of) would be attained by m= inimizing the amount of "lit surface" on the screen.
Anyone know if this has all been coincidental or if the decision f= or graphical user interfaces and such to predominantly use white/light colo= rs for backgrounds was a relatively intentional measure around the industry= ? Or is it really just that that's how Xerox's system looked and it= was all domino effect after that? At the end of the day I'm really jus= t finding myself puzzling why computing jumped into the minimalism seen on = terminal screens, keeping from driving CRTs super hard but then when GUIs f= irst started appearing, they didn't just organically align with what wa= s the most efficient for a CRT. I recognize this is based largely in subjec= tive views of how something should look too, so not really expecting a &quo= t;Person XYZ authoritatively decided on <date> that GUI elements shal= l overwhelmingly only be dark on light", just some thoughts on how we = got going down this path with color schemes in computing. Thanks all!
=

Dark= on light was to mimic paper.

I'm also skeptical that light on dark uses less power or was easi= er to implement except maybe in the very earliest vector displays...
<= div dir=3D"auto">
Warner
=
- Matt G.
<= div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;color:rgb(0,0,0)">=
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