From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 13063 invoked from network); 1 Oct 2023 19:23:09 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (2600:3c01:e000:146::1) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 1 Oct 2023 19:23:09 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EA40402A5; Mon, 2 Oct 2023 05:23:04 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ej1-x62c.google.com (mail-ej1-x62c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::62c]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6098F40269 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 2023 05:22:57 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ej1-x62c.google.com with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-9adca291f99so2143052066b.2 for ; Sun, 01 Oct 2023 12:22:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1696188175; x=1696792975; darn=tuhs.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=OjZkWW3APkuX7S+N97OjpKS27raUWo3fG2XYE1ETJtI=; b=CIyhrFDdLszzT2fUzfMBXLaAp/UCij7RDyzt40MDE5g+jEwueemAAckSeeCSpULe3+ o4WOXI1qJt/eOu5omonJPR5cXRypnrH3AYrYwv1xaTjDx0UVwvpUcy2UL61EgaFVRTWw iB+slIHPOeqlsZbGEu4e9eZeTzm/xOFBldsMOO3oSPLHO4ceiSKrUP3x27V2fqQ8NNsi C3umJO8P2vHo1aUP31uE6aIMbIL/yMJIqeCD6wPETQcYW581H0yVDnIDnQ7QZ6897R0D HGD3IzVtGKQPi0RmY4O8iEXp5IiCh70NQppwOfqCpSrHolqIVmqAr5kmZTDCWMN0nBW+ +iJQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1696188175; x=1696792975; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=OjZkWW3APkuX7S+N97OjpKS27raUWo3fG2XYE1ETJtI=; b=IJKl3AwIIUZBggVFJ0WB53DGsbtvpwOERO7/cqXe6gSe3+CgBnNA//dzm0JDzPuOtC RxwHZWDOuC8FHqe/iejiqtq1/PPB6GVqjH/zjIrSNZLMEtG6I8hy+pcB6PmQRCo+TzeD DXCfruBoakYT8OnyVlvCPXUskifcXayXGud/x8YDOObX0jSz7RKgagc9SgT6nFsb2Gpa 28QnEJt8VKtXaQFGCUSrUaHS8/isWIzLsHry+CvzgrU9xJbORLI1N+9fp20+ddevlnsi 1uVEEFUH6xkheJzj/QPr2r2Vsf9S5/mAlOTXQkYwDnV/52wg3JrxyMQpLkK9nMGv/qDK 1OZQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxA/SYHKyuo9MJAu9SRsHqp+mx568uLEus+fJZqd6j+a0mywJpt FRboMOHlUTMCUcuQIfRQqIK7IlERW/0DRuKsEpg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFd3Wb28aIz4PHOFCpOHtlahi/sWZ6f1J5HlchytP/L5WGvMCbPBZUyti44OLYfGYp0CmpAwCwvilW6ZN7iTNE= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:3094:b0:9b2:6f52:5868 with SMTP id 20-20020a170906309400b009b26f525868mr8914240ejv.48.1696188174614; Sun, 01 Oct 2023 12:22:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Adam Thornton Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2023 12:22:43 -0700 Message-ID: To: steve jenkin Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009ee76f0606ac95cd" Message-ID-Hash: 72CRWNKHNZJO75B27E6STYNOGANCBFHG X-Message-ID-Hash: 72CRWNKHNZJO75B27E6STYNOGANCBFHG X-MailFrom: athornton@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: COFF X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [COFF] Re: late 1990's servers vs R-Pi 5: quantifiable Performance vs Cost improvements? List-Id: Computer Old Farts Forum Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --0000000000009ee76f0606ac95cd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable https://mvsevm.fsf.net runs a bunch of historical systems on, mostly, a single RPi 4. Several years ago I wrote a blog post where I giggled that I was running a Multics system at much greater than original speed on something that cost fifty bucks and was the size of a pack of cigarettes. Pretty soon I will have the time and energy to get my home file/mail/web-server migrated off its old (2008ish?) Sun x86_64 box, which is big and noisy and sucks a lot of power onto the 1L PC I bought for the purpose. At that point, finally, the overhead fan will be the loudest thing in my home office. Also when I do that the only spinning rust in systems in my house that I leave powered on (and the number of other ones is shrinking as real SCSI drives give up the ghost and are replaced by SCSI2SD) will be in my home NAS. On Sat, Sep 30, 2023 at 10:20=E2=80=AFPM steve jenkin wrote: > An Old Farts Question, but answers unrestricted :) > > In the late 1990=E2=80=99s I inherited a web hosting site running a numbe= r of > 300Mhz SPARC SUNs. > Probably 32-bit, didn=E2=80=99t notice then :) > > Some were multi-CPU=E2=80=99s + asymmetric memory [ non-uniform memory ac= cess > (CC-NUMA) ] > We had RAID-5 on a few, probably a hardware controller with Fibre Channel > SCSI disks. > > LAN ports 100Mbps, IIRC. Don=E2=80=99t think we had 1Gbps switches. > > Can=E2=80=99t recall how much RAM or the size of the RAID-5 volume. > I managed to borrow from SUN a couple of drives for 2-3 months & filled > all the drive bays for =E2=80=98busy time'. > With 300MB drives, at most we had a few GB. > > Don=E2=80=99t know the cost of the original hardware - high six or seven = figures. > A single additional board with extra CPU=E2=80=99s & DRAM for one machine= was > A$250k, IIRC. > > TB storage & zero =E2=80=99seek & latency=E2=80=99 with SSD are now cheap= and plentiful, > even using =E2=80=9CAll Flash=E2=80=9D Enterprise Storage & SAN=E2=80=99s= . > Storage system performance is now 1000x or more, even for cheap M.2 SSD. > > Pre-2000, a =E2=80=98large=E2=80=99 RAID was GB. > Where did all this new =E2=80=98important=E2=80=99 data come from? > > Raw CPU speed was once the Prime System Metric, based on an assumption of > =E2=80=98balanced=E2=80=99 systems. > IO performance and Memory size needed to match the CPU throughput for a > desired workload, > not be the =E2=80=9CRate Limiting Step=E2=80=9D, because CPU=E2=80=99s we= re very expensive and > their capacity couldn=E2=80=99t be =E2=80=98wasted=E2=80=99. > > I looked at specs/ benchmarks of the latest R-Pi 5 and it might be > ~10,000x cheaper than the SUN machines > while maybe 10x faster. > > I never knew the webpages/ second my machines provided, > I had to focus on Application throughput & optimising that :-/ > > I was wondering if anyone on-list has tracked the Cost/ Performance of > systems over the last 25 years. > With Unix / Linux, we really can do =E2=80=9CApples & Apples=E2=80=9D com= parisons now. > > I haven=E2=80=99t done the obvious Internet searches, any comments & poin= ters > appreciated. > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > Raspberry Pi 5 revealed, and it should satisfy your need for speed > No longer super-cheap, but boasts better graphics and swifter > storage > > > ~$150 + PSU & case, cooler. > > Raspberry Pi 5 | Review, Performance & Benchmarks > < > https://core-electronics.com.au/guides/raspberry-pi/raspberry-pi-5-review= -performance-and-benchmarks/ > > > > Benchmark Table > < > https://core-electronics.com.au/media/wysiwyg/tutorials/Jaryd/pi-les-go/B= enchmark_Table.png > > > [ the IO performance is probably to SD-Card ] > > 64 bit, 4-core, 2.4Ghz, > 1GB / 2GB / 4GB / 8GB DRAM > 800MHz VideoCore GPU =3D 2x 4K displays @ 60Hz > single-lane PCI Express 2.0 [ for M.2 SSD ] > 2x four-lane 1.5Gbps MIPI transceivers [ camera & display ] > 2x USB 3.0 ports, > "RP1 chip reportedly allows for simultaneous 5-gigabit > throughput on both the USB 3.0s now." > 2x USB 2.0 ports, > 1x Gigabit Ethernet, > 27W USB-C Power + active cooler (fan) > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > -- > Steve Jenkin, IT Systems and Design > 0412 786 915 (+61 412 786 915) > PO Box 38, Kippax ACT 2615, AUSTRALIA > > mailto:sjenkin@canb.auug.org.au http://members.tip.net.au/~sjenkin > > --0000000000009ee76f0606ac95cd Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
https://mvsevm.fsf= .net runs a bunch of historical systems on, mostly, a single RPi 4.

Several years ago I wrote a blog post where I giggled= that I was running a Multics system at much greater than original speed on= something that cost fifty bucks and was the size of a pack of cigarettes.= =C2=A0 Pretty soon I will have the time and energy to get my home file/mail= /web-server migrated off its old (2008ish?) Sun x86_64 box, which is big an= d noisy and sucks a lot of power onto the 1L PC I bought for the purpose.= =C2=A0 At that point, finally, the overhead fan will be the loudest thing i= n my home office.=C2=A0 Also when I do that the only spinning rust in syste= ms in my house that I leave powered on (and the number of other ones is shr= inking as real SCSI drives give up the ghost and are replaced by SCSI2SD) w= ill be in my home NAS.

On Sat, Sep 30, 2023 at 10:20=E2=80=AFPM st= eve jenkin <sjenkin@canb.auu= g.org.au> wrote:
An Old Farts Question, but answers unrestricted :)

In the late 1990=E2=80=99s I inherited a web hosting site running a number = of 300Mhz SPARC SUNs.
Probably 32-bit, didn=E2=80=99t notice then :)

Some were multi-CPU=E2=80=99s + asymmetric memory [ non-uniform memory acce= ss (CC-NUMA) ]
We had RAID-5 on a few, probably a hardware controller with Fibre Channel S= CSI disks.

LAN ports 100Mbps, IIRC. Don=E2=80=99t think we had 1Gbps switches.

Can=E2=80=99t recall how much RAM or the size of the RAID-5 volume.
I managed to borrow from SUN a couple of drives for 2-3 months & filled= all the drive bays for =E2=80=98busy time'.
With 300MB drives, at most we had a few GB.

Don=E2=80=99t know the cost of the original hardware - high six or seven fi= gures.
A single additional board with extra CPU=E2=80=99s & DRAM for one machi= ne was A$250k, IIRC.

TB storage & zero =E2=80=99seek & latency=E2=80=99 with SSD are now= cheap and plentiful,
even using =E2=80=9CAll Flash=E2=80=9D Enterprise Storage & SAN=E2=80= =99s.
Storage system performance is=C2=A0 now 1000x or more, even for cheap M.2 S= SD.

Pre-2000, a =E2=80=98large=E2=80=99 RAID was GB.
Where did all this new =E2=80=98important=E2=80=99 data come from?

Raw CPU speed was once the Prime System Metric, based on an assumption of = =E2=80=98balanced=E2=80=99 systems.
IO performance and Memory size needed to match the CPU throughput for a des= ired workload,
not be the =E2=80=9CRate Limiting Step=E2=80=9D, because CPU=E2=80=99s were= very expensive and their capacity couldn=E2=80=99t be =E2=80=98wasted=E2= =80=99.

I looked at specs/ benchmarks of the latest R-Pi 5 and it might be ~10,000x= cheaper than the SUN machines
while maybe 10x faster.

I never knew the webpages/ second my machines provided,
I had to focus on Application throughput & optimising that :-/

I was wondering if anyone on-list has tracked the Cost/ Performance of syst= ems over the last 25 years.
With Unix / Linux, we really can do =E2=80=9CApples & Apples=E2=80=9D c= omparisons now.

I haven=E2=80=99t done the obvious Internet searches, any comments & po= inters appreciated.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Raspberry Pi 5 revealed, and it should satisfy your need for speed
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 No longer super-cheap, but boasts better graphi= cs and swifter storage
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <https= ://www.theregister.com/2023/09/28/raspberry_pi_5_revealed/>

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ~$150 + PSU & case, cooler.

Raspberry Pi 5 | Review, Performance & Benchmarks
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <https://core-electronics.com.au/guides/ra= spberry-pi/raspberry-pi-5-review-performance-and-benchmarks/>

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Benchmark Table
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <https://core-electronics.com.au/media/wysiwyg/tutori= als/Jaryd/pi-les-go/Benchmark_Table.png>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[ the IO perf= ormance is probably to SD-Card ]

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 64 bit, 4-core, 2.4Ghz,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 1GB / 2GB / 4GB / 8GB DRAM
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 800MHz VideoCore GPU=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =3D 2x 4K dis= plays @ 60Hz
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 single-lane PCI Express 2.0 [ for M.2 SSD ]
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2x four-lane 1.5Gbps MIPI transceivers [ camera= & display ]
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2x USB 3.0 ports,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 "RP1 chip repo= rtedly allows for simultaneous 5-gigabit throughput on both the USB 3.0s no= w."
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2x USB 2.0 ports,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 1x Gigabit Ethernet,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 27W USB-C Power + active cooler (fan)

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

--
Steve Jenkin, IT Systems and Design
0412 786 915 (+61 412 786 915)
PO Box 38, Kippax ACT 2615, AUSTRALIA

mailto:sjenki= n@canb.auug.org.au http://members.tip.net.au/~sjenkin
--0000000000009ee76f0606ac95cd--