From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=MAILING_LIST_MULTI, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 22160 invoked from network); 6 Jul 2023 08:48:51 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (2600:3c01:e000:146::1) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 6 Jul 2023 08:48:51 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E8F9402D8; Thu, 6 Jul 2023 18:48:48 +1000 (AEST) Received: from lists.tip.net.au (pasta.tip.net.au [203.10.76.2]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0CFC2402CE for ; Thu, 6 Jul 2023 18:48:39 +1000 (AEST) Received: from [192.168.1.5] (ppp118-208-161-109.cbr-trn-nor-bras39.tpg.internode.on.net [118.208.161.109]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailhost.tip.net.au (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4QxVYc5rN7z9QvY; Thu, 6 Jul 2023 18:48:36 +1000 (AEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) From: steve jenkin In-Reply-To: <_l_rdK2ywBoEAheCu4dCFyJ3cyXymIXgMK9-_bgAtMwLXtmr2sZnuRvjFc6jqn6K0X_E2MuSEMm5_iVO7eBeYTOpRHVRuypykZD_au00R-c=@protonmail.com> Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2023 18:48:32 +1000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <_l_rdK2ywBoEAheCu4dCFyJ3cyXymIXgMK9-_bgAtMwLXtmr2sZnuRvjFc6jqn6K0X_E2MuSEMm5_iVO7eBeYTOpRHVRuypykZD_au00R-c=@protonmail.com> To: COFF X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) Message-ID-Hash: SFM4CXXGLUL7X3RUBWCSDPPGBIQTDR3V X-Message-ID-Hash: SFM4CXXGLUL7X3RUBWCSDPPGBIQTDR3V X-MailFrom: sjenkin@canb.auug.org.au X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [COFF] Re: Bell System and the Video Game Industry? List-Id: Computer Old Farts Forum Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: > On 4 Jul 2023, at 11:57, segaloco via COFF wrote: >=20 > So this evening I've been tinkering with a WECo 2500 I've been using = for playing with telecom stuff, admiring the quality of the DTMF module, = and it got me thinking, gee, this same craftsmanship would make for some = very nice arcade buttons, which then further had me pondering on the = breadth of the Bell System's capabilities and the unique needs of the = video game industry in the early 80s. >=20 > In many respects, the combination of Western Electric and Bell = Laboratories could've been a hotbed of video game console and software = development, what with WECo's capability to produce hardware such as = coin slots, buttons, wiring harnesses for all sorts of equipment, etc. = and then of course the software prowess of the Labs. >=20 > Was there to anyone here's knowledge any serious consideration of this = market by Bell? The famous story of UNIX's origins includes Space = Travel, and from the very first manual, games of various kinds have = accompanied UNIX wherever it goes. It seems that out of most companies, = the Bell System would've been very well poised, what with their own CPU = architecture and other fab operations, manufacturing and distribution = chains, and so on. There's a looooot of R&D that companies such as = Atari and Nintendo had to engage in that the Bell System had years if = not decades of expertise in. Would anti-trust stuff have come into play = in that regard? Bell couldn't compete in the computer market, and I = suppose it would depend on the legal definitions applicable to video = game hardware and software at the time. >=20 > In any case, undercurrent here is the 2500 is a fine telephone, if the = same minds behind some of this WECo hardware had gone into video gaming, = I wonder how different things would've turned out. >=20 > - Matt G. Matt, An astute question and one that, IMHO, deserves an answer because, if = you=E2=80=99re asking, you never saw AT&T operate as a full throated = monopoly. A caveat, I wasn=E2=80=99t ever at Bell Labs, didn=E2=80=99t work in the = USA but have talked to folk. The short answer would be =E2=80=9CSuits and Lawyers=E2=80=9D. Second part is the postscript in Rob Pike=E2=80=99s story / history of = Music on the Plan 9 CD. P.S. No, I don=E2=80=99t have the music any more. Too = sad to keep. = The people on this list who built software and made hardware would=E2=80=99= ve put their case to =E2=80=98management=E2=80=99 and we know that the answer was =E2=80=9CNo=E2=80=9D. The same response = Ken got in 1969 when 127 asked for a PDP-10, forcing him to find the = PDP-7. If people haven't responded, it=E2=80=99s because decades later, it=E2=80=99= s still too raw. Rachel Chalmers in her 1999 article on John Lions,=20 quotes Dennis Ritchie commenting on Western Electric=E2=80=99s control = of Unix V7 and after: "Code Critic=E2=80=9D=20 "Even though in the 1970s Unix was not a commercial proposition, USG and the lawyers were cautious. At any rate, we in research lost the argument.=E2=80=9D [ for cheap = licences & teaching & commentaries ] Chalmers concludes, on Mike Tilson et al at (real) SCO making =E2=80=98legacy Unix=E2=80=99 source available for a nominal fee = again. [ ?year?] [ someone can correct me on versions & conditions ] "Research, at last, had won." The Bell Labs researchers were very innovative and =E2=80=98curious=E2=80=99= - did a whole bunch of stuff in many fields. That management & legal stance of =E2=80=98protecting=E2=80=99 all I.P. = it could claim and trying to charge as much as it could, how did it work out for them? In 1974, Ken, Dennis et al launched Unix to the world via CACM. In 1984, AT&T =E2=80=98demerged=E2=80=99 in the =E2=80=98Baby Bells=E2=80=99= and the new AT&T keeping Bells Labs, Western Electric (?) and =E2=80=98Lo= ng Lines=E2=80=99. This allowed them to compete with IBM et al in Computers and Software = (and vice versa, IBM bought Rolm & tried telephony) With USL and the large number of Unix licences granted with _zero_ = marketing and support, I=E2=80=99m guessing the =E2=80=9Csmart managers=E2=80=9D thought = they=E2=80=99d create another massive fortune. In 1994, AT&T sold off their Computers (to NCR) and Software (Unix) to = Novel, who=E2=80=99d already paid for some of it. [ Novel sold on USL and some rights to SCO later, which led to the = =E2=80=9Cnew SCO=E2=80=9D suit against The World, ] [ claiming Linux infringed its I.P. and it was owed gazillions in back = payments from anyone who could even spell Linux. ] [ smarter people than me will correct this, I=E2=80=99m sure ] In ~2004, AT&T was bought by one of the Baby Bells, SBC, which kept the = name but changed the business culture. The Proof is in the Pudding=E2=80=A6 AT&T management in the 1960=E2=80=99s & 70=E2=80=99s thought they could = =E2=80=98milk=E2=80=99 Unix and new IC-based computers in the same way they=E2=80=99d milked the telephone business since Alexander Graham Bell = invented a working telephone circa 1875. Their mismanagement killed the business, causing Bell Labs as we knew = it, to eventually fade away. I hope that=E2=80=99s somewhat an answer for me, if not correct & = complete, it also explains why the =E2=80=98combatants=E2=80=99 aren=E2=80=99t keen to talk about their experiences. all my best steve -- Steve Jenkin, IT Systems and Design=20 0412 786 915 (+61 412 786 915) PO Box 38, Kippax ACT 2615, AUSTRALIA mailto:sjenkin@canb.auug.org.au http://members.tip.net.au/~sjenkin