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[107.215.223.229]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 2-20020a170902c20200b00178aaf6247bsm22975367pll.21.2023.01.03.18.44.53 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 03 Jan 2023 18:44:54 -0800 (PST) From: Bakul Shah Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A5AB3E89-9E1D-48E7-84E3-E30C54764C21" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3731.300.101.1.3\)) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2023 18:44:42 -0800 In-Reply-To: To: Warner Losh References: <20230102203646.GT25547@mcvoy.com> <7AC50DD1-DAB2-443A-B275-E3FB08031167@gmail.com> <20230103025836.GZ25547@mcvoy.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3731.300.101.1.3) Message-ID-Hash: YRMVXJJKFOD2SNYANWGEJ426GXCUERVV X-Message-ID-Hash: YRMVXJJKFOD2SNYANWGEJ426GXCUERVV X-MailFrom: bakul@iitbombay.org X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: COFF X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [COFF] Re: [TUHS] Interview question List-Id: Computer Old Farts Forum Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --Apple-Mail=_A5AB3E89-9E1D-48E7-84E3-E30C54764C21 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Jan 3, 2023, at 7:57 AM, Warner Losh wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Mon, Jan 2, 2023 at 7:59 PM Larry McVoy > wrote: >> On Mon, Jan 02, 2023 at 02:13:45PM -0700, Adam Thornton wrote: >> > Which of these, if any, do you count? >>=20 >> Any of them that are entirely done by you.=20 >=20 > With due respect, this seems like an impossible thing to have done. I = think it's an arbitrary question. I see the point of Larry asking this. Presumably it is *one* of the = questions he asks! There are a lot of smart people who don't know or = don't have experience with how to deliver a product. Product delivery is = a lot more than hacking up some code. It is writing good design and user = documentation, thorough testing, lots of trial and error to make the = UI/GUI as intuitive as possible, making it as bug free as possible, may = be even dealing with customer bug reports and requests etc. etc. At = least to me it would not be a pass/fail question (IMHO there is no point = in asking such questions to an interviewee). > "No man is an Island" John Donne. >=20 > Nobody on this list can claim to have anything they did entirely by = themselves. Everybody used tools built by others. Everybody used an OS = built by others. Even people that did a full OS + all the tools used = other tools to boostrap that were done by others. They used hardware = that was designed by others, made from chips made by others from raw = materials mined by others. Right but even with a complete set of tools and detailed plans not = everyone can do good carpentry. It requires care, knowing your craft, = knowing what shortcuts you can take, knowing who to ask for advice etc. = etc. And it is a different challenge when you have to make a dozen = matching chairs as opposed to one. When I was interviewing people my job was to assess their experience, = abilities & aptitude. Nobody is perfect so you have to find where they = would be a good fit in some job for which there is an opening, as well = as whether it is of sufficiently interesting/challenging for them etc. > We all "stand on the shoulders of giants"[*]. While I get the = connection to looking for someone that's independent, self sufficient, = etc, it seems a bit arbitrary. I've done a ton of work on the FreeBSD = kernel, for example, but it isn't all 100% me. Others have contributed = to it, others have reviewed my work, others have given me (or the = project) bug fixes. That project, as with so many others, are so much = better due to the collaboration that happened between people. In many = ways that's more important than doing something 100% yourself. >=20 > Warner >=20 > [*] "If I have seen further it is by standing on the sholders[sic] of = others" -- Isaac Newton in a 1675 letter to his rival Robert Hooke --Apple-Mail=_A5AB3E89-9E1D-48E7-84E3-E30C54764C21 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii On Jan 3, = 2023, at 7:57 AM, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> = wrote:



On Mon, Jan 2, 2023 at 7:59 PM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> = wrote:
On Mon, Jan 02, 2023 at 02:13:45PM = -0700, Adam Thornton wrote:
> Which of these, if any, do you = count?

Any of them that are entirely done by = you. 

With due respect, this = seems like an impossible thing to have done. I think it's an arbitrary = question.

I see the = point of Larry asking this. Presumably it is *one* of the questions he = asks! There are a lot of smart people who don't know or don't have = experience with how to deliver a product. Product delivery is a lot more = than hacking up some code. It is writing good design and user = documentation, thorough testing, lots of trial and error to make the = UI/GUI as intuitive as possible, making it as bug free as possible, may = be even dealing with customer bug reports and requests etc. etc. At = least to me it would not be a pass/fail question (IMHO there is no point = in asking such questions to an interviewee).

"No = man is an Island" John Donne.

Nobody on this = list can claim to have anything they did entirely by themselves. = Everybody used tools built by others. Everybody used an OS built by = others. Even people that did a full OS + all the tools used other = tools to boostrap that were done by others. They used hardware that was = designed by others, made from chips made by others from raw = materials mined by = others.

Right but = even with a complete set of tools and detailed plans not everyone can do = good carpentry. It requires care, knowing your craft, knowing what = shortcuts you can take, knowing who to ask for advice etc. etc. And it = is a different challenge when you have to make a dozen matching chairs = as opposed to one.

When I was interviewing = people my job was to assess their experience, abilities & aptitude. = Nobody is perfect so you have to find where they would be a good fit in = some job for which there is an opening, as well as whether it is of = sufficiently interesting/challenging for them = etc.

We all "stand on the shoulders of giants"[*]. = While I get the connection to looking for someone that's independent, = self sufficient, etc, it seems a bit arbitrary. I've done a ton of work = on the FreeBSD kernel, for example, but it isn't all 100% me. Others = have contributed to it, others have reviewed my work, others have given = me (or the project) bug fixes. That project, as with so many others, are = so much better due to the collaboration that happened between people. In = many ways that's more important than doing something 100% = yourself.

Warner

[*] = "If I have seen further it is by standing on the sholders[sic] of = others" -- Isaac Newton in a 1675 letter to his rival Robert = Hooke


= --Apple-Mail=_A5AB3E89-9E1D-48E7-84E3-E30C54764C21--