Well, what the title says. Some folks here wandered what the future may be. I suppose destroying Linux, or making it irrelevant. What would happened, if systemd development went in two ways, one gnu-licenced and the other commercial? https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Systemd-Creator-Microsoft -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola@bigfoot.com **
Tomasz Rola <rtomek@ceti.pl>, 2022-07-08 09:40 (+0200): > Well, what the title says. Some folks here wandered what the future > may be. I suppose destroying Linux, or making it irrelevant. Microsoft of today is really not the Microsoft of the 1990s. There are a lot of people at MSFT working on Linux in different forms. > What would happened, if systemd development went in two ways, one > gnu-licenced and the other commercial? I suppose more distributions would look at the alternatives like OpenRC or S6. -- MC, https://hack.org/mc/
On Fri, Jul 08, 2022 at 12:26:23PM +0200, Michael Cardell Widerkrantz wrote: > Tomasz Rola <rtomek@ceti.pl>, 2022-07-08 09:40 (+0200): > > > Well, what the title says. Some folks here wandered what the future > > may be. I suppose destroying Linux, or making it irrelevant. > > Microsoft of today is really not the Microsoft of the 1990s. There are a > lot of people at MSFT working on Linux in different forms. If you know this first hand, then great. I admit, after 1995 I have only used anything MS about few times a year or so. The experience was always a bit miserable - my index finger got stiff from constant clicking, my mouse-arm got tired from precision moves etc. You may thing I am exagerrating, in such case try moving your finger up and down for an hour - I was just trying to port my Linux workflow under Windows, and I am sure if I really had to work under Windows, I would have invented some shortcuts to save my finger. But I digress. You wrote, MS is not the same as in 1990. I think, sure, thirty years later, they would not be the same. But you seem to imply that "so old-thinking guys are out of the doors already". This might be. However, I am more likely to believe that "old thinking guys" made sure to hire new guys who would be able to get the torch from their cold hands and carry on. On the surface, a business is all new ("hey we hire new people every day"). Under the surface, a business is almost the same ("why change something that works so well"). > > What would happened, if systemd development went in two ways, one > > gnu-licenced and the other commercial? > > I suppose more distributions would look at the alternatives like OpenRC > or S6. Maybe. I am still trying to evaluate various alternatives to Debian and I am not so sure. Debian was so bloody good (for me) that finding alternative is hard (especially that I expect to do something with computer at the same time). -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola@bigfoot.com **
Hello, Tomasz, On Sat, Jul 09, 2022 at 02:29:07AM +0200, Tomasz Rola wrote: >Maybe. I am still trying to evaluate various alternatives to Debian >and I am not so sure. Debian was so bloody good (for me) that finding >alternative is hard (especially that I expect to do something with >computer at the same time). https://www.devuan.org/ Devuan GNU+Linux is a fork of Debian without systemd that allows users to reclaim control over their system by avoiding unnecessary entanglements and ensuring Init Freedom. Cheers, Ángel
On Sat, Jul 09, 2022 at 03:52:30AM +0200, Angel M Alganza wrote: > Hello, Tomasz, > [...] > Devuan GNU+Linux is a fork of Debian without systemd that allows > users to reclaim control over their system by avoiding > unnecessary entanglements and ensuring Init Freedom. Thank you. I have Devuan on a (very short) list. Right now I am testing a systemd based Debian derivative, to see what I will be missing. Testing takes time etc. I am not very impressed, so far. During last months, nothing I would like to have so much that I would go with systemd. It just behaves predictably, which is a lot, but not really lot. After all, it is still a Linux. However, performance seems to be worse. I have a really old (like, decade) desktop with really antique Debian (pre-systemd) and it seems to behave faster than a newish (bought from second hand) laptop with integrated CPU/GPU and Parrot installed on it. The clocks - I always downclock as a rule. So old Debian is clocked @800MHz and Parrot @1100MHz. Hence Parrot really could do a bit more, but nope. Feels sluggish, but I might be making this up. After all, I do not like the whole idea of systemd and stuff. Well, a small difference - Debian runs on four cores, and Parrot cannot. On four cores it overheats and shuts down whenever I try to use it - be it computing control sums or compiling. In order to be any usable at all I have to boot it with maxcpus=1. This probably tells more about quality of laptop than Parrot. But I will see more when I install something else on it. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola@bigfoot.com **
On Sat, Jul 09, 2022 at 10:35:53AM +0200, Tomasz Rola wrote:
>Thank you. I have Devuan on a (very short) list. Right now I am
>testing a systemd based Debian derivative, to see what I will be
Well, Devuan isn't really a Debian based (different) distro.
It actually is Debian without SystemD, as it used to be.
Also, it is maintained by a few of previously Debian devs.
Cheers,
Ángel
On Jul 9, 2022, at 1:35 AM, Tomasz Rola <rtomek@ceti.pl> wrote:
>
> However, performance seems to be worse.
There's a reason replacements for init and /etc/rc like launchd, upstart, and systemd exist.
I just wish Linux hadn't rolled its own and had gone with launchd. Of course, that'd have also required having a reasonable kernel-level IPC system like Mach.
-- Chris
Chris Hanson wrote in <2598435A-B098-4449-9327-86BE981A2CD0@eschatologist.net>: |On Jul 9, 2022, at 1:35 AM, Tomasz Rola <rtomek@ceti.pl> wrote: |> |> However, performance seems to be worse. | |There's a reason replacements for init and /etc/rc like launchd, upstart, \ |and systemd exist. | |I just wish Linux hadn't rolled its own and had gone with launchd. \ |Of course, that'd have also required having a reasonable kernel-level \ |IPC system like Mach. Oh! I finally find a second good thing of systemd: it does not use XML resource files! The other is the "startup-completed" notification of fork-fork- away daemons via socket, but of course the daemons have to be especially coded to use that. The third is that administrators can play easy? But they do need ansible, puppet or whatever there is (i am luckily no admin). I do not give in the fourth, as of course you can integrate anything into one via dynamic modules, and it gives you a bit. With just four separate programs running? Like kernel, systemd, emacs and a graphical web browser? I personally see three errors here, but do not get away without the browser myself. To me the problem is that you always have those trains that everybody jumps on. You could pimp login(1) to use "reap control", like Linux prctl(2) PR_SET_CHILD_SUBREAPER, and FreeBSD's procctl(2) does that even better (with _STATUS, _GETPIDS, _KILL available). You could integrate PAM to use REAP if sessions get used. (PAM is a desaster because it does not, actually. As i found out. Heh.) You could offer some additional inittab(5) keywords that do this reaping, that unshare daemons early, in effect something like [filesystem overlay setup] cd / ip netns exec ${netns} \ /usr/bin/env -i TERM=${TERM} DISPLAY=${DISPLAY} \ /usr/bin/unshare --ipc --uts --pid --fork \ --mount --mount-proc ${kill_child} \ ${rooter} ${prog} And then you have the isolation from a normal POSIX shell level. But no, all these things are left behind and noone cares no more, even though it would be relatively easy to integrate all these isolation and control techniques into small and UNIXish environments. Only corpses! At least in Linux user space land. --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt)
Tomasz Rola <rtomek@ceti.pl>, 2022-07-09 02:29 (+0200): > On Fri, Jul 08, 2022 at 12:26:23PM +0200, Michael Cardell Widerkrantz wrote: >> Tomasz Rola <rtomek@ceti.pl>, 2022-07-08 09:40 (+0200): >> >> > Well, what the title says. Some folks here wandered what the future >> > may be. I suppose destroying Linux, or making it irrelevant. >> >> Microsoft of today is really not the Microsoft of the 1990s. There are a >> lot of people at MSFT working on Linux in different forms. > > If you know this first hand, then great. I do. I have friends at Microsoft. > I admit, after 1995 I have only used anything MS about few times a > year or so. Ha! I haven't actually used anything from Microsoft for a long time. Last time I was forced to was in 2004, I think. I even had to use Word! When I found VBacs which turned MS Word into a resemblance of Emacs my productivity soured. https://www.rath.ca/Misc/VBacs/ SWMBO has a Windows laptop, though, so I still see it sometimes. >> I suppose more distributions would look at the alternatives like OpenRC >> or S6. > > Maybe. I am still trying to evaluate various alternatives to Debian > and I am not so sure. Alpine is very popular. It's using OpenRC and eyeing S6, I've heard. https://www.alpinelinux.org/ -- MC, https://hack.org/mc/
On Mon, 11 Jul 2022, Michael Cardell Widerkrantz wrote: > Ha! I haven't actually used anything from Microsoft for a long time. > Last time I was forced to was in 2004, I think. I even had to use Word! > When I found VBacs which turned MS Word into a resemblance of Emacs my > productivity soured. My home is now 100% M$-free; the last time I had to use it was to update the firmware on a GPS device which is now useless because of the GPS rollover bug. In the meantime, WINE works quite well. > Alpine is very popular. It's using OpenRC and eyeing S6, I've heard. > > https://www.alpinelinux.org/ Alpine? Where do Penguin/OS users get off using the name of a well-known MUA (the one I'm using now)? -- Dave
On 12 Jul 2022 09:01 +1000, from dave@horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall): >> Alpine is very popular. It's using OpenRC and eyeing S6, I've heard. > > Alpine? Where do Penguin/OS users get off using the name of a well-known > MUA (the one I'm using now)? If Wikipedia is to be believed, the MUA came later. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_Linux> "Initial release August 2005" as compared to <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_(email_client)> "Initial release December 20, 2007" to say nothing of all the other uses <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine> -- Michael Kjörling • https://michael.kjorling.se • michael@kjorling.se “Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 752 bytes --] On Tue, Jul 12, 2022 at 12:59 AM Michael Kjörling <michael@kjorling.se> wrote: > On 12 Jul 2022 09:01 +1000, from dave@horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall): > >> Alpine is very popular. It's using OpenRC and eyeing S6, I've heard. > > > > Alpine? Where do Penguin/OS users get off using the name of a > well-known > > MUA (the one I'm using now)? > If Wikipedia is to be believed, the MUA came later. > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_Linux> "Initial release August 2005" > as compared to > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_(email_client)> "Initial release > December 20, 2007" > > Yeah well where do those file compression Johnny-come-latelies get off on stealing the name of an Infocom-format Z-machine interpreter? Adam [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1434 bytes --]
Michael Cardell Widerkrantz <mc@hack.org>, 2022-07-11 23:04 (+0200): > When I found VBacs which turned MS Word into a resemblance of Emacs my > productivity soured. Ahem. "soared". But funny misspelling. I was definitely turning sour by being forced to use Windows. Thankfully I dual booted. -- MC, https://hack.org/mc/
Michael Cardell Widerkrantz wrote:
>> When I found VBacs which turned MS Word into a resemblance of Emacs
>> my productivity soured.
> Ahem. "soared".
I think a combination of soured and soared sounds very appropriate.
Adam Thornton wrote in <CAP2nic2GZg6S+WVzVGx89Hn5qzkyFBuYGbieA_A20Tv9H06knQ@mail.gmail.com>: |On Tue, Jul 12, 2022 at 12:59 AM Michael Kjörling <michael@kjorling.se> |wrote: |> On 12 Jul 2022 09:01 +1000, from dave@horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall): |>>> Alpine is very popular. It's using OpenRC and eyeing S6, I've heard. |>> |>> Alpine? Where do Penguin/OS users get off using the name of a |> well-known |>> MUA (the one I'm using now)? |> If Wikipedia is to be believed, the MUA came later. |> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_Linux> "Initial release August \ |> 2005" |> as compared to |> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_(email_client)> "Initial release |> December 20, 2007" | |Yeah well where do those file compression Johnny-come-latelies get off on |stealing the name of an Infocom-format Z-machine interpreter? I "always" thought of it as a "You can call me Al" extension, or better continuation, of the Pine mailer with the Pico editor (that i liked), which are much, much older. (TonyPine would have been an alternative: "Fix it again Tony".) --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt)
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 514 bytes --] On Tue, 12 Jul 2022, Michael Kjörling wrote: > If Wikipedia is to be believed, the MUA came later. > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_Linux> "Initial release August 2005" > as compared to > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_(email_client)> "Initial release December 20, 2007" Any fool can update Wikipedia (and they do). I give you PINE (Alpine's (predecessor): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_(email_client) 1992... I've been using it (then Alpine) since about then. -- Dave
On 13 Jul 2022 09:34 +1000, from dave@horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall): >> If Wikipedia is to be believed, the MUA came later. >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_Linux> "Initial release August 2005" >> as compared to >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_(email_client)> "Initial release December 20, 2007" > > Any fool can update Wikipedia (and they do). > > I give you PINE (Alpine's (predecessor): > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_(email_client) > > 1992... I've been using it (then Alpine) since about then. Sure; I used Pine in 1995-1996 or so, and then again around 2001-2002, so yes, Pine clearly predates a Linux distribution with an initial release in mid-2005. But your post was about _Alpine_, not _Pine_ (or at least, I can't immediately find any "Pine Linux", whereas Alpine Linux is rather well-known), so that's what I was responding to. -- Michael Kjörling • https://michael.kjorling.se • michael@kjorling.se “Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”