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* [COFF] ARPAnet now 4 nodes
@ 2020-12-05 23:14 jnc
  2020-12-09  2:41 ` dave
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread
From: jnc @ 2020-12-05 23:14 UTC (permalink / raw)


     > The ARPAnet reached four nodes on this day in 1969 ..
     > the nodes were UCSB, UCLA, SRI, and Utah.

Yeah; see the first map here:

  http://www.chiappa.net/~jnc/tech/arpageo.html

Missing maps gratefully received!

	Noel


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* [COFF] ARPAnet now 4 nodes
  2020-12-05 23:14 [COFF] ARPAnet now 4 nodes jnc
@ 2020-12-09  2:41 ` dave
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread
From: dave @ 2020-12-09  2:41 UTC (permalink / raw)


On Sat, 5 Dec 2020, Noel Chiappa wrote:

> > The ARPAnet reached four nodes on this day in 1969 .. the nodes were 
> > UCSB, UCLA, SRI, and Utah.
>
> Yeah; see the first map here:
>
>  http://www.chiappa.net/~jnc/tech/arpageo.html

Yep; I know that first map well :-)  For the newbies here, the ARPAnet was 
the predecessor of the Internet (no, it didn't spring from the brow of 
Zeus, nor Billy Gates), and what we now call "routers" were then IMPs 
(look it up).

> Missing maps gratefully received!

Indeed; history needs to be kept alive, lest it die.

-- Dave


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* [COFF] ARPAnet now 4 nodes
@ 2020-12-10  8:12 rudi.j.blom
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread
From: rudi.j.blom @ 2020-12-10  8:12 UTC (permalink / raw)


I like a challenge although it wasn't really much of it. A simple arpa
imp in yahoo spilled the beans :-)

"The Interface Message Processor (IMP) was the packet switching node
used to interconnect participant networks to the ARPANET from the late
1960s to 1989. It was the first generation of gateways, which are
known today as routers.[1][2][3] An IMP was a ruggedized Honeywell
DDP-516 minicomputer with special-purpose interfaces and software.[4]
In later years the IMPs were made from the non-ruggedized Honeywell
316 which could handle two-thirds of the communication traffic at
approximately one-half the cost.[5] An IMP requires the connection to
a host computer via a special bit-serial interface, defined in BBN
Report 1822. The IMP software and the ARPA network communications
protocol running on the IMPs was discussed in RFC 1, the first of a
series of standardization documents published by the Internet
Engineering Task Force (IETF)."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interface_Message_Processor

Cheers,
uncle rubl

From: Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org>
To: Computer Old Farts Followers <coff at tuhs.org>
Cc:
Bcc:
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2020 13:41:11 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Re: [COFF] ARPAnet now 4 nodes
On Sat, 5 Dec 2020, Noel Chiappa wrote:

> The ARPAnet reached four nodes on this day in 1969 .. the nodes were > UCSB, UCLA, SRI, and Utah.

Yeah; see the first map here:

 http://www.chiappa.net/~jnc/tech/arpageo.html

Yep; I know that first map well :-)  For the newbies here, the ARPAnet
was the predecessor of the Internet (no, it didn't spring from the
brow of Zeus, nor Billy Gates), and what we now call "routers" were
then IMPs (look it up).

Missing maps gratefully received!

Indeed; history needs to be kept alive, lest it die.

-- Dave


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* [COFF] ARPAnet now 4 nodes
@ 2020-12-04 21:05 dave
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread
From: dave @ 2020-12-04 21:05 UTC (permalink / raw)


The ARPAnet reached four nodes on this day in 1969; at least one "history" 
site reckoned the third node was connected in 1977 (and I'm still waiting 
for a reply to my correction).  Well, I can believe that perhaps there 
were only three left by then...

According to my notes, the nodes were UCSB, UCLA, SRI, and Utah.

-- Dave


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* [COFF] ARPAnet now 4 nodes
  2019-12-06 17:33 jnc
  2019-12-06 18:02 ` lm
  2019-12-06 19:38 ` lars
@ 2019-12-09  1:09 ` stewart
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread
From: stewart @ 2019-12-09  1:09 UTC (permalink / raw)


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[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1995 bytes --]


> On 2019, Dec 6, at 12:33 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu <mailto:jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>> wrote:
> 
>> From: Lars Brinkhoff
> 
>>> PARC's MAXC appears in the mid-1970s.
> 
>> Maybe this is a good time to ask if anyone knows whether any of those
>> diverse systems has software preserved? Specifically, the
>> implementation of the NCP and 1822 Host-to-IMP protocols?
> 
> Both MAXC's were PDP-10 re-implementations, and ran TENEX. So the basic
> system is still around, not sure if they had any interesting local hacks
> (well, probably PUP support; MIT tried to put it in MIT-XX, so it may
> still exist on thats backup tapes).
> 


I am pretty sure that the NCP implementation for the MAXCs was the TENEX version, with local mods by Ed Taft.

I designed the Alto BBN-1822 interface, which was used for connecting to the  Bay Area Packet Radio network and also used for PARC-MAXC2.  MAXC1 had a Nova as the front end, about which I know nothing, but MAXC2 used an Alto. Both machines were  40 bit word microcoded machines programmed to be PDP-10s.  Corporate wanted PARC to use SDS but the CSL folks wanted a 10, so they had to build one.

The software specifically for the Alto 1822 survives, oddly enough, because Marc Verdiell (CuriousMarc)’s 
Alto Restoration project showed my old 1822 development disk pack in  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxFv2JNNW-A <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxFv2JNNW-A>  I found the bits at 
http://xeroxalto.computerhistory.org/Indigo/Alto-1822/.index.html <http://xeroxalto.computerhistory.org/Indigo/Alto-1822/.index.html>

I only tested my own code up to successful loopback to the local IMP, then Ed took over.  I did the low level code for the PRNet interface, which was not NCP, and hooked it up to  Hal Murray’s Mesa implmentation of the Pup stack.

-Larry

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* [COFF] ARPAnet now 4 nodes
  2019-12-06 17:33 jnc
  2019-12-06 18:02 ` lm
@ 2019-12-06 19:38 ` lars
  2019-12-09  1:09 ` stewart
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread
From: lars @ 2019-12-06 19:38 UTC (permalink / raw)


Noel Chiappa wrote:
>     > Maybe this is a good time to ask if anyone knows whether any of those
>     > diverse systems has software preserved? Specifically, the
>     > implementation of the NCP and 1822 Host-to-IMP protocols?
>
> Both MAXC's were PDP-10 re-implementations, and ran TENEX. So the
> basic system is still around

That's kind of the thing.  All NCP implementations I know about are for
DEC computers.  Nothing for IBM, SDS, etc.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* [COFF] ARPAnet now 4 nodes
  2019-12-06 17:33 jnc
@ 2019-12-06 18:02 ` lm
  2019-12-06 19:38 ` lars
  2019-12-09  1:09 ` stewart
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread
From: lm @ 2019-12-06 18:02 UTC (permalink / raw)


On Fri, Dec 06, 2019 at 12:33:38PM -0500, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> Interesting; I also have a large collection of maps:
> 
>   http://mercury.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/arpanet.html#Maps

And there it is, October 1981, UWISC is on the arpanet.  Looks like there
were about 70 IMPs at the time.

This is awesome info Noel, thanks!


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* [COFF] ARPAnet now 4 nodes
@ 2019-12-06 17:33 jnc
  2019-12-06 18:02 ` lm
                   ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 20+ messages in thread
From: jnc @ 2019-12-06 17:33 UTC (permalink / raw)


    > From: Lars Brinkhoff

    >> PARC's MAXC appears in the mid-1970s.

    > Maybe this is a good time to ask if anyone knows whether any of those
    > diverse systems has software preserved? Specifically, the
    > implementation of the NCP and 1822 Host-to-IMP protocols?

Both MAXC's were PDP-10 re-implementations, and ran TENEX. So the basic
system is still around, not sure if they had any interesting local hacks
(well, probably PUP support; MIT tried to put it in MIT-XX, so it may
still exist on thats backup tapes).


    > From: Rob Gingell gingell at computer.org 

    > A collection of maps of the ARPAnet over time is available from the 
    > Computer History Museum

Interesting; I also have a large collection of maps:

  http://mercury.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/arpanet.html#Maps

all with hi-res versions (click on the thumbnails). Some of the ones
at the CHM I don't have, but the coverage time-wise is similar.

I also have a modest collection of hosts.txt files, ranging from 
Jul-77 to Apr-94.

    > I've forgotten at this point whether the assignments were documented in
    > RFCs or other assigned numbers documents from the Network Information Center

The first 'Assigned numbers' RFC was #739, from November 1977. It never
contained host addresses. There were a very few early RFC's which contained
host adresses (#226, #229, #236), but pretty quickly host addresses were done
via the hosts.txt file, distributed from the NIC. (Given the churn rate, using
RFC's didn't make sense.) Early RFCs about this are #606 and #627.  There were
a bunch of RFC's that reported on 'host status' (e.g. how their software was
doing), but their goal was different.


PS: A number of people are leaving out the definite article before 'ARPANET';
this seems to be popular these days (especially in the UK it seems, not sure
why), but it is incorrect. 

Also, the correct spelling is all capitals (check e.g. through old RFCs).
Until of course the AP gets their hands on it (I'm breathlessly awaiting
their announcement that the U.S. President's reference is to be referred
to as the 'white house').

	Noel


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* [COFF] ARPAnet now 4 nodes
  2019-12-06  4:19             ` amp1ron
@ 2019-12-06  4:43               ` amp1ron
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread
From: amp1ron @ 2019-12-06  4:43 UTC (permalink / raw)


[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4099 bytes --]

I searched for files on saildart that include the text SRI-ARC .  The oldest one I can find is file NET.SYS dated 1973-04-08: https://www.saildart.org/NAMES[NET,SYS]4

It appears to be an older version of the 1974-04-04 file I mentioned in my previous message.

My apologies for top-posting.  I'll stop posting now as I don’t have any ideas for finding hosts files older than that one.

-----Original Message-----
From: amp1ron at gmail.com <amp1ron at gmail.com> 
Sent: Thursday, December 5, 2019 11:19 PM
To: 'Rob Gingell' <gingell at computer.org>; 'Larry McVoy' <lm at mcvoy.com>
Cc: coff at minnie.tuhs.org
Subject: RE: [COFF] ARPAnet now 4 nodes

I see there's a LOT of hosts files in at least several different formats archived on saildart.  A duck duck go search for "site:saildart.org hst.net filedate 197" found me lots of files dated in the 1970s.  In the first few pages of search results there's this 1974-04-04 file https://www.saildart.org/NAMES%5BNET,SYS%5D3 .  At least that's in the mid-70s date range you're looking for.  And maybe there are even older files on saildart.  I've pulled out the entries from that file with the lowest 20 numbers and ordered them by number.  Between number 1 and 23 in that 1974-04-04 file hosts 17, 20, and 22 are missing.  So even if hosts hadn't yet been renumbered, by 1974-04-04 it appears some hosts were dropped from at least this file NET.SYS .

; Here we define the names (long and short) of the sites and their numbers
	X <UCLA-NMC>,NMC,1,0
	X <SRI-ARC>,NIC,2,noslf!noelf
	X UCSB,UCSB,3,0
	X UTAH,UTAH,4,noslf!noelf
	X <BBN-NCC>,NCC,5,noslf!noelf
	X <MIT-MLTX>,MLTX,6,0
	X <RAND-65>,RAND,7,0
	X SDC,SDC,8,0
	X <HARV-10>,HARV,9,0
	X <LL-67>,LL67,10,0
	X <SU-AI>,SAIL,11,noelf
	X <ILL-11>,ILL11,12,0
	X CASE,CASE,13,0
	X <CMU-10B>,CMU,14,0
	X <NASA-AMES>,AMES,15,noslf!noelf
	X <AMES-67>,AME67,16,0
	X RADC,RADC,18,0
	X NBS,NBS,19,0
	X TINKER,OCAF,21,0
	X USC,USC,23,0

-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Gingell <gingell at gmail.com> On Behalf Of Rob Gingell
Sent: Thursday, December 5, 2019 10:26 PM
To: amp1ron at gmail.com; 'Larry McVoy' <lm at mcvoy.com>
Cc: coff at minnie.tuhs.org
Subject: Re: [COFF] ARPAnet now 4 nodes

On 12/5/19 5:19 PM, amp1ron at gmail.com wrote:
> Maybe some of these hosts files that Lars Brinkhoff gathered together will help:
> 
> 	https://github.com/ttkzw/hosts.txt

Thanks for the pointer. I had come across those. The trouble is, for the 
NCP era, there's only one host file in the collection. The rest are all 
from the post-Internet transition (and thus the numbers can't be 
inferred to convey a probable chronological sequence.)

And for the one from the NCP era, it's the one that only has the first 
page and so it's missing a bunch of stuff. (It's not really a HOSTS.TXT 
file but a prettified annotated edition with other information, and so 
the file in the repository is a PDF of a scanned physical printout.)

Still even that one page adds some information. From the information 
exchanged previously we had hosts 1 through 4, and then host 13. And the 
likely matches for about two dozen numbers. And the fragment from the 
one page in the repository adds 5 (though it's clear from the comments 
that it was a recycled number), 9, 12, confirms 13, 14, 15, 16, and then 
a smattering of others up to 232.

Some of the liaison names are tickling memories of long ago acquaintances!

I had thought that once upon a time there was an archive of a mid-1970s 
TENEX distribution, like 1.33 or 1.34. The distribution might have 
embedded a stale HOSTS.TXT file that would have been complete for the 
time. But I haven't managed to find it again.

Still none of this really answers Larry's query in a satisfying way. I 
imagine somewhere there's just a ledger that has the answer to the 
question I thought he posed about who showed up when with what on the 
ARPAnet. The collected papers of someone like Jon Postel might have 
something of that nature (but a brief search doesn't reveal an archive 
literally like that) but then substantial body of his work lives on in 
the RFC library.








^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* [COFF] ARPAnet now 4 nodes
  2019-12-06  3:25           ` gingell
@ 2019-12-06  4:19             ` amp1ron
  2019-12-06  4:43               ` amp1ron
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread
From: amp1ron @ 2019-12-06  4:19 UTC (permalink / raw)


I see there's a LOT of hosts files in at least several different formats archived on saildart.  A duck duck go search for "site:saildart.org hst.net filedate 197" found me lots of files dated in the 1970s.  In the first few pages of search results there's this 1974-04-04 file https://www.saildart.org/NAMES%5BNET,SYS%5D3 .  At least that's in the mid-70s date range you're looking for.  And maybe there are even older files on saildart.  I've pulled out the entries from that file with the lowest 20 numbers and ordered them by number.  Between number 1 and 23 in that 1974-04-04 file hosts 17, 20, and 22 are missing.  So even if hosts hadn't yet been renumbered, by 1974-04-04 it appears some hosts were dropped from at least this file NET.SYS .

; Here we define the names (long and short) of the sites and their numbers
	X <UCLA-NMC>,NMC,1,0
	X <SRI-ARC>,NIC,2,noslf!noelf
	X UCSB,UCSB,3,0
	X UTAH,UTAH,4,noslf!noelf
	X <BBN-NCC>,NCC,5,noslf!noelf
	X <MIT-MLTX>,MLTX,6,0
	X <RAND-65>,RAND,7,0
	X SDC,SDC,8,0
	X <HARV-10>,HARV,9,0
	X <LL-67>,LL67,10,0
	X <SU-AI>,SAIL,11,noelf
	X <ILL-11>,ILL11,12,0
	X CASE,CASE,13,0
	X <CMU-10B>,CMU,14,0
	X <NASA-AMES>,AMES,15,noslf!noelf
	X <AMES-67>,AME67,16,0
	X RADC,RADC,18,0
	X NBS,NBS,19,0
	X TINKER,OCAF,21,0
	X USC,USC,23,0

-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Gingell <gingell at gmail.com> On Behalf Of Rob Gingell
Sent: Thursday, December 5, 2019 10:26 PM
To: amp1ron at gmail.com; 'Larry McVoy' <lm at mcvoy.com>
Cc: coff at minnie.tuhs.org
Subject: Re: [COFF] ARPAnet now 4 nodes

On 12/5/19 5:19 PM, amp1ron at gmail.com wrote:
> Maybe some of these hosts files that Lars Brinkhoff gathered together will help:
> 
> 	https://github.com/ttkzw/hosts.txt

Thanks for the pointer. I had come across those. The trouble is, for the 
NCP era, there's only one host file in the collection. The rest are all 
from the post-Internet transition (and thus the numbers can't be 
inferred to convey a probable chronological sequence.)

And for the one from the NCP era, it's the one that only has the first 
page and so it's missing a bunch of stuff. (It's not really a HOSTS.TXT 
file but a prettified annotated edition with other information, and so 
the file in the repository is a PDF of a scanned physical printout.)

Still even that one page adds some information. From the information 
exchanged previously we had hosts 1 through 4, and then host 13. And the 
likely matches for about two dozen numbers. And the fragment from the 
one page in the repository adds 5 (though it's clear from the comments 
that it was a recycled number), 9, 12, confirms 13, 14, 15, 16, and then 
a smattering of others up to 232.

Some of the liaison names are tickling memories of long ago acquaintances!

I had thought that once upon a time there was an archive of a mid-1970s 
TENEX distribution, like 1.33 or 1.34. The distribution might have 
embedded a stale HOSTS.TXT file that would have been complete for the 
time. But I haven't managed to find it again.

Still none of this really answers Larry's query in a satisfying way. I 
imagine somewhere there's just a ledger that has the answer to the 
question I thought he posed about who showed up when with what on the 
ARPAnet. The collected papers of someone like Jon Postel might have 
something of that nature (but a brief search doesn't reveal an archive 
literally like that) but then substantial body of his work lives on in 
the RFC library.







^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* [COFF] ARPAnet now 4 nodes
  2019-12-06  1:19         ` amp1ron
@ 2019-12-06  3:25           ` gingell
  2019-12-06  4:19             ` amp1ron
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread
From: gingell @ 2019-12-06  3:25 UTC (permalink / raw)


On 12/5/19 5:19 PM, amp1ron at gmail.com wrote:
> Maybe some of these hosts files that Lars Brinkhoff gathered together will help:
> 
> 	https://github.com/ttkzw/hosts.txt

Thanks for the pointer. I had come across those. The trouble is, for the 
NCP era, there's only one host file in the collection. The rest are all 
from the post-Internet transition (and thus the numbers can't be 
inferred to convey a probable chronological sequence.)

And for the one from the NCP era, it's the one that only has the first 
page and so it's missing a bunch of stuff. (It's not really a HOSTS.TXT 
file but a prettified annotated edition with other information, and so 
the file in the repository is a PDF of a scanned physical printout.)

Still even that one page adds some information. From the information 
exchanged previously we had hosts 1 through 4, and then host 13. And the 
likely matches for about two dozen numbers. And the fragment from the 
one page in the repository adds 5 (though it's clear from the comments 
that it was a recycled number), 9, 12, confirms 13, 14, 15, 16, and then 
a smattering of others up to 232.

Some of the liaison names are tickling memories of long ago acquaintances!

I had thought that once upon a time there was an archive of a mid-1970s 
TENEX distribution, like 1.33 or 1.34. The distribution might have 
embedded a stale HOSTS.TXT file that would have been complete for the 
time. But I haven't managed to find it again.

Still none of this really answers Larry's query in a satisfying way. I 
imagine somewhere there's just a ledger that has the answer to the 
question I thought he posed about who showed up when with what on the 
ARPAnet. The collected papers of someone like Jon Postel might have 
something of that nature (but a brief search doesn't reveal an archive 
literally like that) but then substantial body of his work lives on in 
the RFC library.






^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* [COFF] ARPAnet now 4 nodes
  2019-12-05 20:41       ` gingell
@ 2019-12-06  1:19         ` amp1ron
  2019-12-06  3:25           ` gingell
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread
From: amp1ron @ 2019-12-06  1:19 UTC (permalink / raw)


Maybe some of these hosts files that Lars Brinkhoff gathered together will help:

	https://github.com/ttkzw/hosts.txt

-----Original Message-----
From: COFF <coff-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org> On Behalf Of Rob Gingell
Sent: Thursday, December 5, 2019 3:41 PM
To: Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com>
Cc: coff at minnie.tuhs.org
Subject: Re: [COFF] ARPAnet now 4 nodes

On 12/5/2019 11:05 AM, Larry McVoy wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 05, 2019 at 10:20:06AM -0800, Rob Gingell wrote:
>> One decent concise accounting is at
>> https://www.zakon.org/robert/internet/timeline/
> 
> That seems to list the 1st 4 and then none?  Or did I miss it?

There's another list of the membership (but not the addresses) under 
1971 but the descriptions peter out after that.

I was doing some digging for old HOSTS.TXT files, one of which would 
give a roughly chronological order, and a sequence of which would allow 
for reconstructing the history, but didn't come up with anything.

Well, I did find one file from 1973 that seemed to have the information 
but the trouble is that file was a document scan that stopped after the 
first page.

Once internetworking experiments started there were sequences of 
"assigned number" RFCs that showed the evolution of internetworking and 
component networks but I came up empty looking for just the plain old 
HOSTS.TXT files.

>> A collection of maps of the ARPAnet over time is available from the Computer
>> History Museum at
>> https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102646704
> 
> Too blurry to read the names.

Admittedly a couple of the maps are hard to process even with zooming in 
but a lot of them are very readable even to my old eyes. And yeah, they 
don't answer the history question except by inference through visual 
comparison. Just couldn't find anything better.

_______________________________________________
COFF mailing list
COFF at minnie.tuhs.org
https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* [COFF] ARPAnet now 4 nodes
  2019-12-05 19:05     ` lm
@ 2019-12-05 20:41       ` gingell
  2019-12-06  1:19         ` amp1ron
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread
From: gingell @ 2019-12-05 20:41 UTC (permalink / raw)


On 12/5/2019 11:05 AM, Larry McVoy wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 05, 2019 at 10:20:06AM -0800, Rob Gingell wrote:
>> One decent concise accounting is at
>> https://www.zakon.org/robert/internet/timeline/
> 
> That seems to list the 1st 4 and then none?  Or did I miss it?

There's another list of the membership (but not the addresses) under 
1971 but the descriptions peter out after that.

I was doing some digging for old HOSTS.TXT files, one of which would 
give a roughly chronological order, and a sequence of which would allow 
for reconstructing the history, but didn't come up with anything.

Well, I did find one file from 1973 that seemed to have the information 
but the trouble is that file was a document scan that stopped after the 
first page.

Once internetworking experiments started there were sequences of 
"assigned number" RFCs that showed the evolution of internetworking and 
component networks but I came up empty looking for just the plain old 
HOSTS.TXT files.

>> A collection of maps of the ARPAnet over time is available from the Computer
>> History Museum at
>> https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102646704
> 
> Too blurry to read the names.

Admittedly a couple of the maps are hard to process even with zooming in 
but a lot of them are very readable even to my old eyes. And yeah, they 
don't answer the history question except by inference through visual 
comparison. Just couldn't find anything better.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* [COFF] ARPAnet now 4 nodes
  2019-12-05 18:20   ` gingell
  2019-12-05 18:33     ` lars
@ 2019-12-05 19:05     ` lm
  2019-12-05 20:41       ` gingell
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread
From: lm @ 2019-12-05 19:05 UTC (permalink / raw)


On Thu, Dec 05, 2019 at 10:20:06AM -0800, Rob Gingell wrote:
> On 12/4/2019 8:19 PM, Larry McVoy wrote:
> > I'd love to know the order of nodes joining and how that was scored.
> 
> There are a number of sites that contain fragments of the history of
> sites/nodes joining the ARPAnet. Wikipedia's entry for ARPAnet has some of
> that along with several logical maps of the network (though these stopped
> including host #'s pretty early on.) One decent concise accounting is at
> https://www.zakon.org/robert/internet/timeline/

That seems to list the 1st 4 and then none?  Or did I miss it?

> A collection of maps of the ARPAnet over time is available from the Computer
> History Museum at
> https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102646704

Too blurry to read the names.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* [COFF] ARPAnet now 4 nodes
  2019-12-05 18:20   ` gingell
@ 2019-12-05 18:33     ` lars
  2019-12-05 19:05     ` lm
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread
From: lars @ 2019-12-05 18:33 UTC (permalink / raw)


Rob Gingell wrote:
> 1: UCLA: Sigma-7
> 2: SRI: SDS-940
> 3: UCSB: IBM 360/75
> 4: Utah: PDP-10
[...]
> If you peruse the maps at the Computer History museum site you can see
> some real diversity in the systems. For instance in April 1971
> Burroughs had an IMP and a B6500 front-ending the under-construction
> ILLIAC-IV (later moved to Ames and front-ended by a couple of
> PDP-10s). PARC's MAXC appears in the mid-1970s.

Maybe this is a good time to ask if anyone knows whether any of those
diverse systems has software preserved?  Specifically, the
implementation of the NCP and 1822 Host-to-IMP protocols?


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* [COFF] ARPAnet now 4 nodes
  2019-12-05  4:19 ` lm
  2019-12-05  8:01   ` lars
@ 2019-12-05 18:20   ` gingell
  2019-12-05 18:33     ` lars
  2019-12-05 19:05     ` lm
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 20+ messages in thread
From: gingell @ 2019-12-05 18:20 UTC (permalink / raw)


On 12/4/2019 8:19 PM, Larry McVoy wrote:
 > I'd love to know the order of nodes joining and how that was scored.

There are a number of sites that contain fragments of the history of 
sites/nodes joining the ARPAnet. Wikipedia's entry for ARPAnet has some 
of that along with several logical maps of the network (though these 
stopped including host #'s pretty early on.) One decent concise 
accounting is at https://www.zakon.org/robert/internet/timeline/

A collection of maps of the ARPAnet over time is available from the 
Computer History Museum at 
https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102646704

As others have noted the numbers were assigned chronologically starting 
at UCLA's Sigma-7 system (1) such that the first 4 were:

1: UCLA: Sigma-7
2: SRI: SDS-940
3: UCSB: IBM 360/75
4: Utah: PDP-10

I know Case-10 was node 13 (more colloquially referenced as 15, in 
octal, which was how we saw the numbers and updated the host table). 
I've forgotten at this point whether the assignments were documented in 
RFCs or other assigned numbers documents from the Network Information 
Center (NIC).

 > I've been told that UW-Madison "was the 11th IMP on the arpanet" but I'm
 > pretty sure that is not true.

You're correct that it's not true. Not sure when/if UW-Madison was on 
the ARPAnet. Hosts did get decommissioned and I think the numbers were 
eventually recycled so it's possible a later site got a lower number but 
now it's my turn not to be sure.

 > My guess is that there are the original
 > IMPs that were arpanet, then there was an expansion to educational sites
 > and Madison was 11 on that.  Or something like that.

ARPAnet "vs." educational sites isn't a distinction that existed. The 
first 4 nodes consisted of 3 educational institutions and a 
university-affiliated research organization (SRI). In 1971 when there 
were 23 hosts and 15 IMPs more than half of the organizations were 
universities though contractors and labs started appearing pretty 
rapidly. IMPs apart from ARPAnet weren't a thing really.

There's a podcast, "50 Things that Made the Modern Economy" that had a 
fairly recent episode about IMPs that was pretty interesting. Had a 
economic, Adam Smith-like spin on the emergence of IMPs as an example of 
specialization in an ecosystem which was a big part of "why IMPs": the 
network was kept homogeneous among the IMPs and whatever weirdness was 
associated with the different hosts (mostly) contained to the host-IMP 
interface.

Those first 4 nodes were all pretty different systems. Some differences 
percolated up to the applications protocols, TELNET's options set was 
complicated by the heterogeneity of the hosts in a protocol architecture 
pre-dating things like "presentation layers" in network models.

If you peruse the maps at the Computer History museum site you can see 
some real diversity in the systems. For instance in April 1971 Burroughs 
had an IMP and a B6500 front-ending the under-construction ILLIAC-IV 
(later moved to Ames and front-ended by a couple of PDP-10s). PARC's 
MAXC appears in the mid-1970s. One of the goals in creating the ARPAnet 
was to provide access to unique resources to a wider research community 
and you can certainly see a lot of unique systems in those early maps.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* [COFF] ARPAnet now 4 nodes
  2019-12-05  8:01   ` lars
@ 2019-12-05 12:37     ` clemc
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread
From: clemc @ 2019-12-05 12:37 UTC (permalink / raw)


On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 3:01 AM Lars Brinkhoff <lars at nocrew.org> wrote:

> Larry McVoy wrote:
> > I'd love to know the order of nodes joining and how that was scored.
>
>
> Are the IMP numbers any indication which order they were connected?
> ______________________________________________



It was always my understanding the numbers were the order they were
activated by bbn

>
> --
Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* [COFF] ARPAnet now 4 nodes
  2019-12-05  4:19 ` lm
@ 2019-12-05  8:01   ` lars
  2019-12-05 12:37     ` clemc
  2019-12-05 18:20   ` gingell
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread
From: lars @ 2019-12-05  8:01 UTC (permalink / raw)


Larry McVoy wrote:
> I'd love to know the order of nodes joining and how that was scored.

Some early RFC describe nodes being connected.

For example, RFC 254 says "The MIT PDP-10(AI) system uses the ITS
operating system and is similar to the MIT PDP-10(DMCG) system. At
present the host is not connected to the ARPANET."  RFC 342 has it as a
"network user", and in RFC 344 it's updated to a server.

Are the IMP numbers any indication which order they were connected?


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* [COFF] ARPAnet now 4 nodes
  2019-12-05  0:08 dave
@ 2019-12-05  4:19 ` lm
  2019-12-05  8:01   ` lars
  2019-12-05 18:20   ` gingell
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 20+ messages in thread
From: lm @ 2019-12-05  4:19 UTC (permalink / raw)


I'd love to know the order of nodes joining and how that was scored.
I've been told that UW-Madison "was the 11th IMP on the arpanet" but I'm
pretty sure that is not true.  My guess is that there are the original
IMPs that were arpanet, then there was an expansion to educational sites
and Madison was 11 on that.  Or something like that.

Anyone know?

On Thu, Dec 05, 2019 at 11:08:47AM +1100, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> The ARPAnet reached four nodes on this day in 1969 (anyone know their
> names?); at least one "history" site reckoned the third node was connected
> in 1977 (and I'm still waiting for a reply to my correction).  Well, I can
> believe that perhaps there were only three left by then...
> 
> Hmmm...  According to my notes, the nodes were UCSB, UCLA, SRI, and Utah.
> 
> -- Dave
> _______________________________________________
> COFF mailing list
> COFF at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff

-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

* [COFF] ARPAnet now 4 nodes
@ 2019-12-05  0:08 dave
  2019-12-05  4:19 ` lm
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread
From: dave @ 2019-12-05  0:08 UTC (permalink / raw)


The ARPAnet reached four nodes on this day in 1969 (anyone know their names?); 
at least one "history" site reckoned the third node was connected in 1977 (and 
I'm still waiting for a reply to my correction).  Well, I can believe that 
perhaps there were only three left by then...

Hmmm...  According to my notes, the nodes were UCSB, UCLA, SRI, and Utah.

-- Dave


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2020-12-10  8:12 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 20+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2020-12-05 23:14 [COFF] ARPAnet now 4 nodes jnc
2020-12-09  2:41 ` dave
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2020-12-10  8:12 rudi.j.blom
2020-12-04 21:05 dave
2019-12-06 17:33 jnc
2019-12-06 18:02 ` lm
2019-12-06 19:38 ` lars
2019-12-09  1:09 ` stewart
2019-12-05  0:08 dave
2019-12-05  4:19 ` lm
2019-12-05  8:01   ` lars
2019-12-05 12:37     ` clemc
2019-12-05 18:20   ` gingell
2019-12-05 18:33     ` lars
2019-12-05 19:05     ` lm
2019-12-05 20:41       ` gingell
2019-12-06  1:19         ` amp1ron
2019-12-06  3:25           ` gingell
2019-12-06  4:19             ` amp1ron
2019-12-06  4:43               ` amp1ron

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