From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 12182 invoked from network); 4 Jan 2023 16:58:44 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 4 Jan 2023 16:58:44 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D151742561; Thu, 5 Jan 2023 02:58:43 +1000 (AEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tuhs.org; s=dkim; t=1672851523; h=from:from:reply-to:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-owner:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post; bh=O/bLZADimiJbxDjPALDSZTzcDFPIWGfVC4t73E9rGRk=; b=4zJqEsIYsimU6C57QK6qChq6X8fU8OUJKpFA9f6pey5NexHc+8yk8iaSw+k+0j9rkdayC9 E7akbtQKRuiC3a+uqKbzsfNMe3dYrEpWORybE5K3Qa8NPODx7qS70VPy4YZPFLXsTyfytS UUSWpIy2PH7/+hOtM0tXwhK+yNvhGa0= Received: from mail-4319.protonmail.ch (mail-4319.protonmail.ch [185.70.43.19]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C9B0B42552 for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2023 02:58:37 +1000 (AEST) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2023 16:58:14 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=protonmail.com; s=protonmail3; t=1672851514; x=1673110714; bh=O/bLZADimiJbxDjPALDSZTzcDFPIWGfVC4t73E9rGRk=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=j7gmi1KwS3p4+yrq8/yqZoKlaypH5jJOAawycfih+i/cIDgT1U2BxDP2IGtuHVBxQ fRSNGIWv4zdpkjqhkQhybRd2Km/gnTJ8P+Tv63Vtr4KJ/yzOdjC5hk7ifTV9JJidFv wRkV8hV1zrUNOUJbyPF7eBaEkNwwLmwM5DfbwnJyrrlFK1op+5KY9/LbqSYAOLDswI 9NHYfRbq7x8mC6AkQ2D/9P9N4uzQwGJmTGC61WxjCH/J/EKYRevCKygZJyh0ET3xkn 9oyzxLbKcTxDVeF/VJKvJyTGC9kDxy/MRMkzWuz8aHDod776xCE9zwZFIpIXGWDco8 uvRWVubm2GqiA== To: Larry McVoy Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20230104160642.GF25689@mcvoy.com> References: <20230102203646.GT25547@mcvoy.com> <7AC50DD1-DAB2-443A-B275-E3FB08031167@gmail.com> <20230103025836.GZ25547@mcvoy.com> <20230104030610.GB25689@mcvoy.com> <20230104160642.GF25689@mcvoy.com> Feedback-ID: 35591162:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID-Hash: WAC72IVT7W45LH5ZJ5IW756LSFUVNZXY X-Message-ID-Hash: WAC72IVT7W45LH5ZJ5IW756LSFUVNZXY X-MailFrom: segaloco@protonmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: COFF X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [COFF] Re: [TUHS] Interview question List-Id: Computer Old Farts Forum Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: From: segaloco via COFF Reply-To: segaloco I do like the conversation that has spun up here and I think a good takeawa= y is that different projects require different workmanship. Different goal= s hinge on different ideas of what a team should look like and how work is = delegated. The question on what one would do upon seeing a coworker some random place = out in public is quite an interesting one these days what with remote work = and all. Admittedly there are a few coworkers I've done on-site assignment= s with in the past that I'd be encouraged to know were around and bump into= every now and then, but by and large it would feel uncomfortable and awkwa= rd just by default. As grateful as I am to have the sort of flexibility th= is work style allows, there's a part of me that feels hobbled by not having= a big table to gather the team around and a white board at the end of the = room to scribble all sorts of ideas on. Oh for the day that I could find a= local software job... As for the sweeping, I'll echo other sentiments that it depends on whether = it's a genuine need or an exercise in authority. The former, of course, I = care about the cleanliness of my space and would be one of the first to gra= b a mop when there's a problem. On the flip side though, I've never sat we= ll with completely arbitrary authority, and so if I see a legitimate reason= to not do something, I most certainly will say so. Granted, I've been of = the persuasion for a while that the mindless drone direction is not the key= to success and that sometimes you just have to exercise the expertise you'= ve been trusted with, even if that means telling the boss something they do= n't want to hear. They pay you to be the best at what you do (hopefully) s= o should hopefully expect dissent when it is warranted. This was an area t= hat took some adjusting to in my early working days, that a good supervisor= is encouraging of criticism or alternative suggestions when those come fro= m a place of sound reasoning, and that only a fool would dictate over any a= nd all concerns voiced by those who will be doing the work. - Matt G. ------- Original Message ------- On Wednesday, January 4th, 2023 at 8:06 AM, Larry McVoy wrot= e: > I think people are bike shedding this so I'm gonna let it go. What > worked for me might not work for you, so be it. You guys have fun. >=20 > On Wed, Jan 04, 2023 at 10:42:03AM -0500, Dan Cross wrote: >=20 > > On Tue, Jan 3, 2023 at 10:06 PM Larry McVoy lm@mcvoy.com wrote: > >=20 > > > Bakul gets it. "Entirely by you" does not mean "go get some sand > > > because you need to make some silicon ..." > > >=20 > > > "Entirely by you" means given a set of tools, show me what you did. > > > Just you. Not your team, just you. > >=20 > > Hmm. I've worked on projects where all code had to be reviewed prior > > to submission into a shared repository (though there was a carve-out > > for a little experimental area). In that context, how does one define > > "just you"? > >=20 > > > It's not an arbitrary question, Warner, it's giving people have done > > > it a chance to say so. And weeding out the people who haven't. > > >=20 > > > Which is not a great way to sort people in general, it was a great > > > way to sort people for my 12 person company. We needed people who > > > could do that, we were too small for people who couldn't. > >=20 > > It seems to me that the outcome is more important than the specifics > > of this exercise. Reading between the lines, it sounds like you were > > using this as a proxy for whether someone can come in and start > > contributing largely unguided and without a lot of handholding, and > > drive something to completion without a lot of external help. That's > > all well and good, but I don't know if this is the best way to assess > > that; as worded, it sounds mostly like you're asking if someone has > > built some tool explicitly used by (at least?) a few other people, but > > some people make much bigger contributions with much higher impact in > > very complex systems without ever doing that. > >=20 > > I think Warner's point is sound: you're building something within a > > framework/system/design/whatever that's been shaped by many others > > before you; what is the meaning of an individual contribution in that > > sense? In some sense, I've written software used by billions of > > people, but they would never know that. I remember when my late mother > > called me once and said, "I saw that Google was in the news for doing > > , was that you?" and I replied, "mom, if you ever hear > > about anything that I did at Google in the news, then I messed up very > > badly and I'm really in a lot of trouble and probably looking for a > > new job." "Oh," my crestfallen mother said, "I told my friends you > > worked on that." "Sorry, ma." Internally, I might have built something > > or changed something used by tens of thousands of engineers, > > well-documented, etc, but again, most wouldn't think about it that > > way; most of them wouldn't even know. Warner's example of working > > inside the FreeBSD kernel similarly: that's used in all kinds of > > places by many, many people, but most don't give a second thought to > > wondering how it works. > >=20 > > > And Bakul, yes, I asked a lot of other questions. The only other one = that > > > came up repeatedly was the "Safeway question". What's that? If you sa= w > > > a coworker at the store, do you go talk to them or do you hide in ano= ther > > > aisle and hope they don't see you? There is your hire/don't hire answ= er. > >=20 > > Ha! Which is the right answer? :-) > >=20 > > Seriously, though, this seems highly contextually dependent: I see > > folks I now around town not infrequently, and I generally smile and > > nod or say hello if I catch their eye, but if they look like they're > > in a rush or are shepherding a couple of screaming kids, I'm not going > > to bother them. > >=20 > > > Bill Moore's question was "If we need you to, will you sweep the floo= rs?" > >=20 > > This better be well contextualized. Does this mean, "we're a small > > organization and everyone needs to be willing to pitch in as needed?" > > or does it mean, "are you willing to prostrate yourself before the > > altar of this organization in order to prove yourself?" If the former, > > sure. If the latter, then no: sorry, I've done my time in more ways > > than one, including literally sweeping and mopping the floors (and > > cleaning the head) in the Marines. There's a tendency in technology to > > basically haze the friendly new guy; I'm done with that. > >=20 > > - Dan C. >=20 >=20 > -- > --- > Larry McVoy Retired to fishing http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat