From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.emacs.gnus.general/80428 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: chad Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel,gmane.emacs.gnus.general Subject: Re: smtp crap Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 16:13:37 -0700 Message-ID: <1C9CC457-A5D9-40F4-9D26-7A4C37829042@MIT.EDU> References: <8739f4kzp3.fsf@catnip.gol.com><87ipo0p1bc.fsf@stupidchicken.com><58C87CB9F44943A7BBE78F2D6B62A850@us.oracle.com><5997613E240C402C877A76C688773E65@us.oracle.com> <4D117A6B-0C4E-4F13-AC0E-C64DAB66C996@mit.edu> <447111A2EC694399973999C249891686@us.oracle.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1251.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1319670832 27253 80.91.229.12 (26 Oct 2011 23:13:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 23:13:52 +0000 (UTC) Cc: ding@gnus.org, 'Emacs devel' To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Oct 27 01:13:49 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RJCfM-0007eb-9n for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 27 Oct 2011 01:13:48 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:35773 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RJCfL-0000a1-LM for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 19:13:47 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:37400) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RJCfI-0000Zw-RT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 19:13:45 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RJCfG-0002CZ-Bv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 19:13:44 -0400 Original-Received: from dmz-mailsec-scanner-8.mit.edu ([18.7.68.37]:60846) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RJCfG-0002CT-6W for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 19:13:42 -0400 X-AuditID: 12074425-b7f116d0000008fe-bb-4ea8942582d7 Original-Received: from mailhub-auth-1.mit.edu ( [18.9.21.35]) by dmz-mailsec-scanner-8.mit.edu (Symantec Messaging Gateway) with SMTP id 26.AC.02302.52498AE4; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 19:13:41 -0400 (EDT) Original-Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (OUTGOING-AUTH.MIT.EDU [18.7.22.103]) by mailhub-auth-1.mit.edu (8.13.8/8.9.2) with ESMTP id p9QNDepx015007; Wed, 26 Oct 2011 19:13:41 -0400 Original-Received: from [10.0.1.4] (c-67-183-32-38.hsd1.wa.comcast.net [67.183.32.38]) (authenticated bits=0) (User authenticated as yandros@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.13.6/8.12.4) with ESMTP id p9QNDbWP027285 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 26 Oct 2011 19:13:39 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <447111A2EC694399973999C249891686@us.oracle.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1251.1) X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFupmleLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42IR4hRV1lWdssLPYPUlJYvHWxpZLS4ffsVi 8XjBE1YHZo+2aWYeB9uyPD4+vcUSwBzFZZOSmpNZllqkb5fAlbF74mHGgl6eip33vjI3MB7n 7GLk5JAQMJF4N/MAO4QtJnHh3no2EFtIYB+jxNwbnl2MXED2BkaJR1dvMUE4J5gkLiydD+Rw cAgDdRzukgVp4BUwllhz6x0LiM0soCVx499LsBI2ARmgoRogYU4BW4kZFy+zgtgsAqoS91vf MEKUW0mcunodytaWWLbwNTPESCuJ2/fvMEOs3cIkcf5LD9ihIgJqEie/PYc6Wl6i5esdtgmM grOQnDELyRmzkMxdwMi8ilE2JbdKNzcxM6c4NVm3ODkxLy+1SNdCLzezRC81pXQTIyic2V1U dzBOOKR0iFGAg1GJh3em8wo/IdbEsuLK3EOMkhxMSqK8UyYDhfiS8lMqMxKLM+KLSnNSiw8x SnAwK4nwLvAByvGmJFZWpRblw6SkOViUxHlf73DwExJITyxJzU5NLUgtgsnKcHAoSfAqgwwV LEpNT61Iy8wpQUgzcXCCDOcBGt4EUsNbXJCYW5yZDpE/xajL0XRqwSlGIZa8/LxUKXHeTJAi AZCijNI8uDmwNPSKURzoLWHeFpAqHmAKg5v0CmgJE9ASZfalIEtKEhFSUg2MfheXyOy88LDz 66EFGhx/ZvippC9/FX/P7AK7ltDKG5+W7ZgQv/zYgxtuyqfubO1vK0pa4P2BnYtTzc5C/YjC SaHJZrryafpX+otS37S7PlebJMp9Q+yx/f945hVvd9RPbtbUlMyomV59e8dqqTUa X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 18.7.68.37 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:145608 gmane.emacs.gnus.general:80428 Archived-At: On Oct 26, 2011, at 3:32 PM, Drew Adams wrote: >>> This is nothing but a regression - reporting a bug with `emacs >>> -Q' has never been a problem in past releases. Why burden=20 >>> and confuse users now? >>=20 >> I have personally seen dozens, of emacs bug reports sitting=20 >> stuck in local mail queues, with the user having no idea that=20 >> the bug never made it beyond the local workstation. =20 >> I am not the only one to report this kind of problem.=20 >> This type of configuration is (as near as we can tell) at=20 >> least as common now than it was then. >=20 > Yes, that is undesirable. Undesirable, well know, and obviously the opposite of ``has never been a problem in the past'', as you knew before you wrote those words. It also pretty clearly answers the question ``Why burden and confuse users now?''. > The solution is to simply _mention_ in the bug-report instructions = that "IF you > have no mail client and IF you have not yet configured Emacs itself as = a mailer, > THEN invoke `M-x XYZ' to so configure it.", where XYZ is a command = that leads > you down whatever configuration garden path is required. So, you want to ask the user, in the middle of reporting a bug, to notice that there's a warning somewhere, and then guess whether or not emacs can send mail without extra steps on their part, when we know that a common failure mode is ``it doesn't work and the user can't reasonably know that it didn't/won't work''. Seems like a pretty poor default to me. YMMV. *Chad=