From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.emacs.gnus.general/33501 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Fran=E7ois_Pinard?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.gnus.general Subject: Re: tick and backtick in unicode Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 01:01:22 -0500 (EST) Sender: owner-ding@hpc.uh.edu Message-ID: <20001128060122.C12DC231C6@titan.progiciels-bpi.ca> References: <00Aug28.151432edt.115218@gateway.intersys.com> <00Aug28.173634edt.115213@gateway.intersys.com> <200009051429.PAA09826@djlvig.dl.ac.uk> <200009082240.XAA16800@djlvig.dl.ac.uk> <87n1h86w6a.fsf@deneb.enyo.de> <200009181407.PAA02748@djlvig.dl.ac.uk> <87wvg7roi1.fsf@deneb.enyo.de> <871ywi31rj.fsf@deneb.enyo.de> <20001127134028.44631F705@titan.progiciels-bpi.ca> <87y9y5a3ff.fsf@totally-fudged-out-message-id> <20001127165629.2A72F231C6@titan.progiciels-bpi.ca> <20001127194722.59B38DD432@tux.gnu.franken.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: coloc-standby.netfonds.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-=" X-Trace: main.gmane.org 1035169596 25483 80.91.224.250 (21 Oct 2002 03:06:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@main.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 03:06:36 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Alan Shutko , ding@gnus.org Return-Path: Original-Received: from spinoza.math.uh.edu (spinoza.math.uh.edu [129.7.128.18]) by mailhost.sclp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83FCBD049A for ; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 01:03:14 -0500 (EST) Original-Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (lists@Sina.HPC.UH.EDU [129.7.3.5]) by spinoza.math.uh.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAB23017; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 00:02:53 -0600 (CST) Original-Received: by sina.hpc.uh.edu (TLB v0.09a (1.20 tibbs 1996/10/09 22:03:07)); Tue, 28 Nov 2000 00:01:51 -0600 (CST) Original-Received: from mailhost.sclp.com (postfix@66-209.196.61.interliant.com [209.196.61.66] (may be forged)) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA07567 for ; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 00:01:38 -0600 (CST) Original-Received: from titan.progiciels-bpi.ca (unknown [199.84.132.86]) by mailhost.sclp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B26FD049A for ; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 01:02:03 -0500 (EST) Original-Received: by titan.progiciels-bpi.ca (Postfix, from userid 405) id C12DC231C6; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 01:01:22 -0500 (EST) Original-To: Karl Eichwalder X-Face: "b_m|CE6#'Q8fliQrwHl9K,]PA_o'*S~Dva{~b1n*)K*A(BIwQW.:LY?t4~xhYka_.LV?Qq `}X|71X0ea&H]9Dsk!`kxBXlG;q$mLfv_vtaHK_rHFKu]4'<*LWCyUe@ZcI6"*wB5M@[m User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.0.91 Original-Lines: 72 Precedence: list X-Majordomo: 1.94.jlt7 Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.gnus.general:33501 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.gnus.general:33501 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit [Karl Eichwalder] > On my US keyboard both keys showing "accents" are not symmetrical: > `...'. Neither on mine, actually. So, the keycaps are not showing ASCII. Anyway, I would not take the keyboard, your or mine, as a reference. > Using ISO-8859-1 these are the symmetrical accents: `...´ (where ´ > is 8bit). Using a recent xterm with recents fonts this is visible. I do not remember the text of ISO 8859-1, nor if it addresses that problem. I'm using ETL fonts, which do something sensible. I'm including a picture of a small part of this message composition buffer... --=-=-= Content-Type: image/png Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=quotes.png Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =89PNG  þ ýþüüþ þøøþùùþþööþþúúþòòþûûþ÷÷ýùùþýûû  øøø úúú ÷÷÷öööòòòýýþûûýüüýüüþûûþ þ þùùþ þøøþŽoû k! åGýe0Fq~ypqTça?¶G¸=7©ß´ËíWÕyQ¿8¸rŽ/5a?¶.wqcz.¢ß|nÜû:Ž›ð T)u>ê×Ü"¦çÆúÍ®îqË×ÄMøy¶-³h¿jçrN·…m;zÎ<áH¿Yp¹@8ê/nŠÊ(nÂ/”í ïÂ~Ùór¯mõœÕ…#ýf7C¶2…‹ŠÚôaÜ”_ë»°hã» m=çèÂiýfõ–Ö_<^y£þÄ©¸Ü¯¼j­íè›û7ÐoßO‡,Ün ·…ÛÂmá¶p[¸-Ünÿ{nØ· ônlú®øö ¬"0ÏmSA´†Á²7ÛI|Cì`”’}ãÉŸž)KÉNJK™ðiÿ…v¸šƒÄ‡˜¯ýnÑoÇ¡ ÙÿÚºÔZqÉζíH'8)Û³–Ú6·ß¶c~ wèZâß?ømÜ€ïŒÓíÉžxÔ ïYÇXÛSÚµ½¶ÍñÀO–t=N ! ò*>Ÿ\Ü$Ø15žî8÷òÛc/Ïw'¿=†øY?rý(º1·ã®y¸3‘¯}Fq\ÆàU'÷ª'üã‹gjˆx)s„—xוoNùÄ~W‡aøàt_r{çıq:oJ¿yx¦†€_ !9ýy:ýåWJðu¸÷EtŸ-í½Í`uœž'â95Ä¿žžŸÄu:ÝJR@¨‡çÄ)ýöòò·¼^nÅ-¢‡çÚø¿q^¾<ŸNO_nÇíUÏçöõY~>}½Kn'Ç,Ün ·…Ûnp¿ÜŒ2rì½pÛÿƒœºÎZAêtÜ>ã—®³VœY’Üó{s#£•gý¿‚Üó¿ï}Ö³Ø>Eôò’¼/·h ®ä¹Ýǵp[¸}gnwK½[r”4÷úÂÐæ?Ì_‹Š:,[ --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > I know that many people, and even very competent ones, are throwing of > > confusion in this field, trying to "repair" ASCII. This is unfortunate. > At first, this was what I thought, too. Then I read Markus Kuhn's > article on this subject and I fear he's right: > http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/ucs/quotes.html > ;) Yes. I was silently referring to Markus, above. Markus is usually very right, and quite dynamic as a guy, but I'm not following him on this one, even if I was much tempted to. I had to calm down and think a bit more, before deciding that his proposal is a confusing compromise, however serious it may look like. In fact, Markus invited me to look at the Unicode reference, and this is what really convinced me that Unicode is really made to compatible with ASCII, including the ambiguous usage of the quote. I might be wrong, of course. That would not have been the first time, nor the last. Yet, I still honestly think that the problem has been invented by font makers and later users, but is away from both Unicode and ASCII standards. Many active people are busy at producing complex software solutions around a problem which should rather be corrected by font makers, which did propagate the problem by imposing debatable, non-standard views. -- François Pinard http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard --=-=-=--