* [Request for Correction]To Gnus team -- Gnus Info about spam biased to Chinese @ 2004-01-10 7:41 Cheng Gao 2004-01-11 1:32 ` [Request for Correction]To Gnus team -- Gnus Info about spam Richard Hoskins 2004-01-11 6:42 ` Ted Zlatanov 0 siblings, 2 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Cheng Gao @ 2004-01-10 7:41 UTC (permalink / raw) As I read Gnus *info*, under "Thwarting Email System"->"The Problem of Spam", I got: "If you get lots of spam from China, for example, you try to filter all mail from Chinese IPs." Obviously spam is a world-wide disaster, and we Chinese should not be treated as only species of morons existed on this earth, though I know oftentimes we are treated like this way. You need not respect Chinese, but please dont let us feel insulted. Please correct this biased wording. Suggest you use some forged country name (or rather USA :-p). Thank you very much for your help. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [Request for Correction]To Gnus team -- Gnus Info about spam 2004-01-10 7:41 [Request for Correction]To Gnus team -- Gnus Info about spam biased to Chinese Cheng Gao @ 2004-01-11 1:32 ` Richard Hoskins 2004-01-11 2:08 ` Simon Josefsson 2004-01-11 6:42 ` Ted Zlatanov 1 sibling, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Richard Hoskins @ 2004-01-11 1:32 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Cheng Gao <chenggao@cyberhut.org> writes: > Please correct this biased wording. Suggest you use some forged > country name (or rather USA :-p). Elbonia -- Lift me down, so I can make the Earth tremble. --Bucky Katt ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [Request for Correction]To Gnus team -- Gnus Info about spam 2004-01-11 1:32 ` [Request for Correction]To Gnus team -- Gnus Info about spam Richard Hoskins @ 2004-01-11 2:08 ` Simon Josefsson 2004-01-11 4:37 ` Cheng Gao 0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Simon Josefsson @ 2004-01-11 2:08 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: Cheng Gao, ding Richard Hoskins <rmh@apk.net> writes: > Cheng Gao <chenggao@cyberhut.org> writes: > >> Please correct this biased wording. Suggest you use some forged >> country name (or rather USA :-p). > > Elbonia Done. Sorry about that, Cheng. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [Request for Correction]To Gnus team -- Gnus Info about spam 2004-01-11 2:08 ` Simon Josefsson @ 2004-01-11 4:37 ` Cheng Gao 0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Cheng Gao @ 2004-01-11 4:37 UTC (permalink / raw) >>>>> "Simon" == Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes: Simon> Richard Hoskins <rmh@apk.net> writes: >> Cheng Gao <chenggao@cyberhut.org> writes: >> >>> Please correct this biased wording. Suggest you use some forged >>> country name (or rather USA :-p). >> >> Elbonia Simon> Done. Sorry about that, Cheng. Thank you very much! Gnus is the best, and the spirit behind Gnus is the bestest! -- Let bygones be bygones ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [Request for Correction]To Gnus team -- Gnus Info about spam 2004-01-10 7:41 [Request for Correction]To Gnus team -- Gnus Info about spam biased to Chinese Cheng Gao 2004-01-11 1:32 ` [Request for Correction]To Gnus team -- Gnus Info about spam Richard Hoskins @ 2004-01-11 6:42 ` Ted Zlatanov 2004-01-11 7:36 ` Simon Josefsson 2004-01-11 13:52 ` Cheng Gao 1 sibling, 2 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Ted Zlatanov @ 2004-01-11 6:42 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding On Sat, 10 Jan 2004, chenggao@cyberhut.org wrote: > "If you get lots of spam from China, for example, you try to filter > all mail from Chinese IPs." > > Obviously spam is a world-wide disaster, and we Chinese should not > be treated as only species of morons existed on this earth, though I > know oftentimes we are treated like this way. You need not respect > Chinese, but please dont let us feel insulted. > > Please correct this biased wording. Suggest you use some forged > country name (or rather USA :-p). I wrote that passage, and I think you're overreacting a bit. First of all, this is obviously an example, and it should be clear to any reader from "for example" in the sentence. No judgment on China is implied. Your assumption that by using China as an example, I am treating the Chinese as "morons" and with disrespect, is unwarranted and unfounded. Second, I don't want to invent a country. I happen to think that Elbonia, to take the example proposed, is just as insulting to Albanians. Also, I don't want to write a manual with invented country names, that's slightly insulting to the intelligent reader IMHO. Third, China is actually a pretty good example, being a big country, because the very next paragraph makes the point that blocking a whole country from contacting you is obviously not a good idea. Fourth, this is a real-life situation. People that get lots of spam from China do try to block all Asian IPs. You may not like it, but I'm not stereotyping Chinese people in any way. The existence of spammers in a country hardly qualifies its people as "morons" as you suggest. Again, the next paragraph makes the point that presuming to block mail from a whole country is very risky. So are you complaining that I'm suggesting that there are spammers in China? On those grounds, you're definitely overreacting, because it's true, and does not make all Chinese "morons." Or maybe you don't like that China specifically is used as an example? I can use Bulgaria, I guess, but it makes (3) and (4) above less valid. Ted ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [Request for Correction]To Gnus team -- Gnus Info about spam 2004-01-11 6:42 ` Ted Zlatanov @ 2004-01-11 7:36 ` Simon Josefsson 2004-01-11 12:35 ` Xavier Maillard 2004-01-11 13:30 ` Ted Zlatanov 2004-01-11 13:52 ` Cheng Gao 1 sibling, 2 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Simon Josefsson @ 2004-01-11 7:36 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com> writes: > Second, I don't want to invent a country. I happen to think that > Elbonia, to take the example proposed, is just as insulting to > Albanians. I think Elbonia refer to Dilbert. Feel free to modify the text again, I should have let you, as the author, fix it. IMHO, I think Cheng has a point; using a specific country does not improve the understanding, and may be perceived as insulting, regardless of the intended meaning. If imaginary country names are not good, perhaps "a certain region of the world" or something. Or use Norway. ;-) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [Request for Correction]To Gnus team -- Gnus Info about spam 2004-01-11 7:36 ` Simon Josefsson @ 2004-01-11 12:35 ` Xavier Maillard 2004-01-11 13:30 ` Ted Zlatanov 1 sibling, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Xavier Maillard @ 2004-01-11 12:35 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 473 bytes --] On 11 Jan 2004, Simon Josefsson<jas@extundo.com> mused: > Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com> writes: > >> Second, I don't want to invent a country. I happen to think that >> Elbonia, to take the example proposed, is just as insulting to >> Albanians. > > I think Elbonia refer to Dilbert. Yes. <snip> > Or use Norway. ;-) Mwarf ;) -- Xavier Maillard 7 rue Jeanne Jugan, 51100 Reims, France phone: +33 3 26 77 02 21, mobile: +33 6 62 59 68 62 email: zedek@gnu-rox.org [-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 188 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [Request for Correction]To Gnus team -- Gnus Info about spam 2004-01-11 7:36 ` Simon Josefsson 2004-01-11 12:35 ` Xavier Maillard @ 2004-01-11 13:30 ` Ted Zlatanov 1 sibling, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Ted Zlatanov @ 2004-01-11 13:30 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding On Sun, 11 Jan 2004, jas@extundo.com wrote: > Feel free to modify the text again, I should have let you, as the > author, fix it. That's not a problem at all. > IMHO, I think Cheng has a point; using a specific country does not > improve the understanding, I think specific real-life examples are always better than "country X" or "Jumanji." I know hackers have a tendency to be cute, but throwing in a Dilbert reference is worse than an example that I've seen in real life (yes, there are real people that block Asian IPs, and I've argued with them about what a bad idea that is). See the fadden.com URL below for one of many stories about blocking mail from Asia. > and may be perceived as insulting, regardless of the intended > meaning. If imaginary country names are not good, perhaps "a > certain region of the world" or something. OK, but "certain region" lacks specificity, so it's no better than "country X." Korean ISPs have also been known to relay spam. > Or use Norway. ;-) Yes, I could. As everyone by now has understood, mentioning a specific country in that example does not imply an insult to that country. This brings me to the real reason why I was upset by Cheng Gao's comment. He assumes that because I use China as an example country, I think badly of the Chinese (as "morons" in his words). This is simply not true, and I don't want the implication to be that I did something wrong, and now we must change the language because it's offensive to the Chinese. I did not say or suggest that China or its population were beneath anyone else, as Cheng Gao implies. Even if one assumes that I used China because there are spammers there, that does not mean that I or anyone else thinks badly of the Chinese. Actually the situation is more complex. See the following URLs for more information (it's just a sampling, there's LOTS of information on this topic), and then maybe you'll see my point with using China as an example. http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/computing/04/06/chinese.spam.idg/ http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,50856,00.html http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,50455,00.html http://www.fadden.com/techmisc/asian-spam.htm http://www.newhouse.com/archive/story1c050102.html I'm not making things up, and pretending that China does not host spammer ISPs and open relays in the name of political correctness does not change that fact. Ted ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [Request for Correction]To Gnus team -- Gnus Info about spam 2004-01-11 6:42 ` Ted Zlatanov 2004-01-11 7:36 ` Simon Josefsson @ 2004-01-11 13:52 ` Cheng Gao 2004-01-11 16:00 ` Adam Sjøgren 2004-01-12 21:01 ` Ted Zlatanov 1 sibling, 2 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Cheng Gao @ 2004-01-11 13:52 UTC (permalink / raw) >>>>> "Ted" == Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com> writes: Ted> On Sat, 10 Jan 2004, chenggao@cyberhut.org wrote: >> "If you get lots of spam from China, for example, you try to >> filter all mail from Chinese IPs." >> >> Obviously spam is a world-wide disaster, and we Chinese should >> not be treated as only species of morons existed on this earth, >> though I know oftentimes we are treated like this way. You need >> not respect Chinese, but please dont let us feel insulted. >> >> Please correct this biased wording. Suggest you use some forged >> country name (or rather USA :-p). Ted> I wrote that passage, and I think you're overreacting a bit. Ted> First of all, this is obviously an example, and it should be Ted> clear to any reader from "for example" in the sentence. No Ted> judgment on China is implied. Your assumption that by using Ted> China as an example, I am treating the Chinese as "morons" and Ted> with disrespect, is unwarranted and unfounded. I am sorry if my post gets you some red and nervous. I know,to some extent, my post seems like a bit overreacted. my mistake is maybe I should be more polite in wording of my original post. I dont mean to accuse of you or anyone else. Ted> Second, I don't want to invent a country. I happen to think Ted> that Elbonia, to take the example proposed, is just as Ted> insulting to Albanians. Also, I don't want to write a manual Ted> with invented country names, that's slightly insulting to the Ted> intelligent reader IMHO. My opinion is maybe an invented country is better. Reasons follows below. Ted> Third, China is actually a pretty good example, being a big Ted> country, because the very next paragraph makes the point that Ted> blocking a whole country from contacting you is obviously not a Ted> good idea. Yes you are right. Chins is a big country, and sometimes I feel it's too big and too populous. It's too big that till now 99.9999% of China is unknown land to me. Its popularity makes you feel fatique all the time. Ted> Fourth, this is a real-life situation. People that get lots of Ted> spam from China do try to block all Asian IPs. You may not Ted> like it, but I'm not stereotyping Chinese people in any way. Ted> The existence of spammers in a country hardly qualifies its Ted> people as "morons" as you suggest. Again, the next paragraph Ted> makes the point that presuming to block mail from a whole Ted> country is very risky. Yes. Real-life example is good for user to understand something. But to my understanding, if some user starts to use Gnus as his/her everyday tool for news and mail, I dare say it's fairly clear for him/her what the real situation is. Ted> So are you complaining that I'm suggesting that there are Ted> spammers in China? On those grounds, you're definitely Ted> overreacting, because it's true, and does not make all Chinese Ted> "morons." Or maybe you don't like that China specifically is Ted> used as an example? I can use Bulgaria, I guess, but it makes Ted> (3) and (4) above less valid. I dont complain that. I dont mean that. And to me, it's the same unfair to change China to USA or Norway or any country. To tell the truth, I read many manuals and tech-related materials. I dont think it's common practice to use name of a real Country or Person in the way as in Gnus *info* file which we are arguing about. Every use has headache of spam problem. So every Gnus user need read the *info*, and everyone will read the example with China as the victim (or I should say, every user feels themself as the victim of China wrongdoings). I know, and everyone knows that it's JUST an example. But please understand that when more and more users read the *info* and hit the section, this example will be some kind of propaganda. I dont think my worry is exaggeration. I know I can not exert any influence. I just express my opinion and concerns. Ted> Ted -- No God blessing me No Dog barking at me Gonna adopt a Dog Name it God Get blessed and barked at ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [Request for Correction]To Gnus team -- Gnus Info about spam 2004-01-11 13:52 ` Cheng Gao @ 2004-01-11 16:00 ` Adam Sjøgren 2004-01-12 21:01 ` Ted Zlatanov 1 sibling, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Adam Sjøgren @ 2004-01-11 16:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Whoa, this discussion reminds me a lot of this article I recently stumbled upon: "How to Deconstruct Almost Anything--My Postmodern Adventure" by Chip Morningstar, Electric Communities. <http://www.info.ucl.ac.be/people/PVR/decon.html> Best regards, -- "Who ees thees Kählveen?" Adam Sjøgren asjo@koldfront.dk ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [Request for Correction]To Gnus team -- Gnus Info about spam 2004-01-11 13:52 ` Cheng Gao 2004-01-11 16:00 ` Adam Sjøgren @ 2004-01-12 21:01 ` Ted Zlatanov 2004-01-13 1:39 ` Cheng Gao 1 sibling, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Ted Zlatanov @ 2004-01-12 21:01 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding On Sun, 11 Jan 2004, chenggao@cyberhut.org wrote: > I am sorry if my post gets you some red and nervous. I know,to > some extent, my post seems like a bit overreacted. my mistake is > maybe I should be more polite in wording of my original post. I > dont mean to accuse of you or anyone else. You used words such as "biased" and "morons" which carry a pretty heavy emotional load in English. I can't help but feel that you are taking offense at what you imagine I am thinking, rather than at the actual content of the paragraph, since the actual content was completely lacking in emotional content. > Ted> So are you complaining that I'm suggesting that there are > Ted> spammers in China? [...] Or maybe you don't like that > Ted> China specifically is used as an example? I can use > Ted> Bulgaria, I guess, but it makes (3) and (4) above less > Ted> valid. > > I dont complain that. I dont mean that. And to me, it's the same > unfair to change China to USA or Norway or any country. Please, understand that it is not "unfair" to use a country as an example, when the example does not imply anything negative about the country, and especially when the example is 100%, undisputably, absolutely true. The references I posted clearly show that spam from Asia and Korea and China in particular is perceived to be a problem. I was trying to be nice and point out that blocking mail from China is a bad idea. > To tell the truth, I read many manuals and tech-related > materials. I dont think it's common practice to use name of a > real Country or Person in the way as in Gnus *info* file which > we are arguing about. I don't think any other part of the Gnus manual, or most other technical materials, deal with geopolitical and social problems such as spam. Very few manuals would even make the point that blocking spam from a whole country is a bad idea, which I was trying to do from the beginning. > Every use has headache of spam problem. So every Gnus user need > read the *info*, and everyone will read the example with China > as the victim (or I should say, every user feels themself as the > victim of China wrongdoings). I think you're the only one so far that believes this. > I know, and everyone knows that it's JUST an example. But please > understand that when more and more users read the *info* and hit > the section, this example will be some kind of propaganda. Because I prefer to write code, and I don't think this discussion will go anywhere, I've changed the example to use Bulgaria. China is mentioned as an example among with other countries and continents. If you don't like that, let me know and I'll make sure China (or Asia too, if you find that offensive as well) is not mentioned by name. I hope you find this satisfactory. Thanks Ted ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [Request for Correction]To Gnus team -- Gnus Info about spam 2004-01-12 21:01 ` Ted Zlatanov @ 2004-01-13 1:39 ` Cheng Gao 0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Cheng Gao @ 2004-01-13 1:39 UTC (permalink / raw) As for this topic, it's the last reply of me. Ted, please accept my apology. Owing to my different cultural background, I must admit I dont know or can not understand many words/prases/sentences/articles too much, and I may use words in some way bizarre or even offensive to those from western cultures. I dont mean to offend anyone though. I think this topic should freeze now. Maybe I was overreacted as you said. And sorry for wasting your precious time. From reading this group, I know you have been very busy working with Gnus. Please dont let my silly doing distracting you from your development. Sorry for disturbing. Best regards, Cheng Gao -- No God blessing me No Dog barking at me Gonna adopt a Dog Name it God Get blessed and barked at ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2004-01-13 1:39 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 12+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2004-01-10 7:41 [Request for Correction]To Gnus team -- Gnus Info about spam biased to Chinese Cheng Gao 2004-01-11 1:32 ` [Request for Correction]To Gnus team -- Gnus Info about spam Richard Hoskins 2004-01-11 2:08 ` Simon Josefsson 2004-01-11 4:37 ` Cheng Gao 2004-01-11 6:42 ` Ted Zlatanov 2004-01-11 7:36 ` Simon Josefsson 2004-01-11 12:35 ` Xavier Maillard 2004-01-11 13:30 ` Ted Zlatanov 2004-01-11 13:52 ` Cheng Gao 2004-01-11 16:00 ` Adam Sjøgren 2004-01-12 21:01 ` Ted Zlatanov 2004-01-13 1:39 ` Cheng Gao
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