Re: Proposed new introductory section to the Gnus manual

[Michael <beriah@opensuse.us>]

On 9/13/19 1:19 AM, Eric Abrahamsen wrote:
> Michael <beriah@opensuse.us> writes:
>
>> On 9/10/19 3:50 PM, Eric Abrahamsen wrote:
>>> dick <dick.r.chiang@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> EA> Gnus has a lot of variables with
>>>> EA> pretty convoluted value-structures. I wonder if its Customize support is
>>>> EA> currently up to snuff
>>>>
>>>> It is not.  One such convoluted value-structure is `gnus-parameters`.
>>>> Configuring that via the Customize interface is like digging a ditch with a
>>>> toy shovel.  Even a basic parameter like `gnus-secondary-select-methods`
>>>> requires knowledge of how a Gnus METHOD is composed.
>>> Yeah, I suppose. Customize just wasn't meant to handle values that
>>> complicated. Gnus also has its own home-grown (of course) "edit forms"
>>> (gnus-eform.el) which currently just dump you in an elisp buffer where
>>> you have to edit elisp forms, but could be smarter about
>>> presenting/parsing complicated values in a user-friendly way.
>>>
>>>> It bears repeating that introducing `gnus-secondary-select-methods` instead of
>>>> vectorizing `gnus-select-method` was a mistake that can still be
>>>> corrected fairly easily.
>>> That's on my list of things to do, but as a user-facing change, it's at
>>> the bottom of the list.
>>>
>>>
>> I really like Gnus and I have tried to use it a couple of times, but
>> always gave up. It is getting harder for me, at my age, to
>> remember/memorize all the different commands.
> A hindrance for users at any age :) There are whole aspects of Gnus
> (scoring, spam, agent categories, etc) that I have never touched, simply
> because I couldn't be bothered with the learning curve.
>
>> Not knowing lisp is for me also a hindrance.
>>
>> However, I want to thank you for working on the introduction and the
>> quick guide. It has given me a better understanding. With that, and
>> the added links posted, I'm getting more familiar with how to use Gnus
>> and close to using it for all my news and email :)
>>
>> I'd love to help since I'm just an old retired man, but don't know
>> enough to help :)
> With all due respect, your ignorance of Gnus might be just the thing we
> need :) I think most people on this list remember that the early
> experience was bad, but don't really remember the details, or what would
> have helped. If you kept an eye on discussion here, and piped up
> whenever a bit of information seemed a) nonsensical or b) just the thing
> you needed to figure out a problem, that might be the biggest help you
> could provide.
>
> For instance, what part of my intro (and the other links posted in this
> thread) was most useful?
>
> Thanks!
> Eric
>
>
Ok, here are some thoughts while reading the intro and comments:

I actually laughed, and liked, the "DON"T PANIC", but how about adding 
one sentence with something like, "Here is some brief help to get you 
started using Gnus". Something brief and easy, before delving into the 
origin of Gnus?

"tick" is mentioned a couple of times, but what is a "tick"? At this 
point, would a more generic term suffice, such as "mark" or "flag" since 
this is the intro?

I like the improvement comments that others have mentioned and that you 
have agreed with, so no need to add anything to them :)


I am very glad for the part mentioning what to type when Gnus has 
started. I do have a "code" comment/question about this. When I start 
Gnus, I see the menu bar and Gnus mascot/icon/whatever it's called. So, 
how about a line under the menu showing different keyboard keys to type, 
such as "q", "L", "AA", "r or R", "f" and what each means? It could be a 
line that could be removed via customization when the experienced user 
didn't need it there?

A number of times when I would start, I couldn't figure out how to get 
out of where I was at to get back to beginning screen (or wherever). So, 
I would just just quit gnus/emacs and wait some time before trying 
again. A line similar to above might help newbies when first starting 
if/when they start and get confused and don't know what to do :)


Ok I'll quit for now.

Thanks for allowing my input.