Usage of gnus mailing list mode

Usage of gnus mailing list mode

[Tassilo Horn]

Hi all,

today I've found out, that `A M' in a mailing lists summary buffer will
activate `gnus-mailing-list-mode' which automagically detects the
mailing list's owner/posting/[un]subscribe address and more.

Well, that's very nice!  Before I had a to-address group parameter for
each mailing list group which was much more inconvenient.

But there's one thing I don't like.  With the to-address group parameter
set, a follow up to a mailing list message created "To:
mailing@list.example".  With this funky mailing list mode, the To header
is filled with the other poster's address and the mailing list is only
Cc-ed.

Personally, I don't like it too much if people reply to my mailing list
articles to both me and the list.  IMHO that's redundant and annoying.
Is that a convention and are there good reasons for such a double-reply?

If not, how do I teach gnus to put the mailing list in the To-header and
to omit the Cc (unless I do a wide reply).

Bye,
Tassilo

BTW: Ding is the only mailing list I have subscribed which doesn't work
with mailing list mode, cause the messages here don't contain the needed
headers.  What a shame!?!

Re: Usage of gnus mailing list mode

[David Engster]

Tassilo Horn <tassilo@member.fsf.org> writes:
> But there's one thing I don't like.  With the to-address group parameter
> set, a follow up to a mailing list message created "To:
> mailing@list.example".  With this funky mailing list mode, the To header
> is filled with the other poster's address and the mailing list is only
> Cc-ed.
>
> Personally, I don't like it too much if people reply to my mailing list
> articles to both me and the list.  IMHO that's redundant and annoying.
> Is that a convention and are there good reasons for such a double-reply?

AFAIK, that's what 'Mail-Followup-To' and 'Mail-Copies-To' headers are
for (see mine). However, not many mail clients know them...

> If not, how do I teach gnus to put the mailing list in the To-header and
> to omit the Cc (unless I do a wide reply).

I don't think this is possible with only the 'to-list parameter being
set. You could sync the 'to-address parameter with the 'to-list
parameter in mailing-list mode. Not really nice, but this should work:

(add-hook 'gnus-mailing-list-mode-hook 
	  (lambda ()
	    (unless (gnus-group-get-parameter 
		     gnus-newsgroup-name 'to-address)
	      (let ((to-list (gnus-group-get-parameter 
			      gnus-newsgroup-name 'to-list)))
		(when to-list
		  (gnus-group-set-parameter gnus-newsgroup-name 
					    'to-address to-list))))))

-David

Re: Usage of gnus mailing list mode

[Tassilo Horn]

David Engster <deng@randomsample.de> writes:

Hi David,

>> Personally, I don't like it too much if people reply to my mailing
>> list articles to both me and the list.  IMHO that's redundant and
>> annoying.  Is that a convention and are there good reasons for such a
>> double-reply?
>
> AFAIK, that's what 'Mail-Followup-To' and 'Mail-Copies-To' headers are
> for (see mine). However, not many mail clients know them...

Ah, nice.  I'll figure out how to add these headers to my own messages,
so that followups to me won't be duplicated.

>> If not, how do I teach gnus to put the mailing list in the To-header
>> and to omit the Cc (unless I do a wide reply).
>
> I don't think this is possible with only the 'to-list parameter being
> set. You could sync the 'to-address parameter with the 'to-list
> parameter in mailing-list mode. Not really nice, but this should work:

Hey, that looks quite good.  Thanks a lot!

> (add-hook 'gnus-mailing-list-mode-hook 
> 	  (lambda ()
> 	    (unless (gnus-group-get-parameter 
> 		     gnus-newsgroup-name 'to-address)
> 	      (let ((to-list (gnus-group-get-parameter 
> 			      gnus-newsgroup-name 'to-list)))
> 		(when to-list
> 		  (gnus-group-set-parameter gnus-newsgroup-name 
> 					    'to-address to-list))))))

Bye,
Tassilo

Re: Usage of gnus mailing list mode

[Tassilo Horn]

Tassilo Horn <tassilo@member.fsf.org> writes:

Hi!

>> AFAIK, that's what 'Mail-Followup-To' and 'Mail-Copies-To' headers
>> are for (see mine). However, not many mail clients know them...
>
> Ah, nice.  I'll figure out how to add these headers to my own
> messages, so that followups to me won't be duplicated.

For the record, that's what I use now:

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
(defun th-gnus-insert-special-ml-headers-maybe ()
  (when (save-excursion
          (set-buffer (gnus-summary-buffer-name gnus-newsgroup-name))
          gnus-mailing-list-mode)
    (message-add-header (concat "Mail-Followup-To: "
                                (gnus-group-get-parameter
                                 gnus-newsgroup-name 'to-list))
                        "Mail-Copies-To: never")))

(add-hook 'message-setup-hook
          'th-gnus-insert-special-ml-headers-maybe)
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

Bye,
Tassilo
-- 
          "Emacs is not a development tool but a way of life."
                - David Kastrup in alt.religion.emacs -

Re: Usage of gnus mailing list mode

[David Engster]

Tassilo Horn <tassilo@member.fsf.org> writes:
>>> AFAIK, that's what 'Mail-Followup-To' and 'Mail-Copies-To' headers
>>> are for (see mine). However, not many mail clients know them...
>>
>> Ah, nice.  I'll figure out how to add these headers to my own
>> messages, so that followups to me won't be duplicated.
>
> For the record, that's what I use now:
>
> (defun th-gnus-insert-special-ml-headers-maybe ()
>   (when (save-excursion
>           (set-buffer (gnus-summary-buffer-name gnus-newsgroup-name))
>           gnus-mailing-list-mode)
>     (message-add-header (concat "Mail-Followup-To: "
>                                 (gnus-group-get-parameter
>                                  gnus-newsgroup-name 'to-list))
>                         "Mail-Copies-To: never")))

That's the complicated version. ;-)

'Mail-Followup-To' can be generated by Gnus. You first must tell Gnus to
which mailing lists your are actually subscribed to, by setting the
"subscribed" group parameter (use 'G c' over the group and check
"Subscribed"). Then put

(setq message-subscribed-address-functions
      '(gnus-find-subscribed-addresses))

in your .gnus. This will set the variable 'message-subscribed-addresses'
(which you can also set directly, without using the group parameter).

Ah well, I'm not sure anymore that's less complicated, but this is what
the manual says. ;-) See:

(info "(message)Mailing Lists")

and the doc to 'subscribed' in

(info "(gnus)Group Parameters")

Regarding 'Mail-Copies-To': You can simply include it in your posting
styles, e.g. by putting

 (posting-style
  (Mail-Copies-To "never"))

in a group or topic. I'm not sure that's even needed when
mail-followup-to is set, but I include it anyway (many mail clients
ignore it, though).

Regards,
David

Re: Usage of gnus mailing list mode

[Tassilo Horn]

David Engster <deng@randomsample.de> writes:

Hi David,

>> For the record, that's what I use now:
>>
>> (defun th-gnus-insert-special-ml-headers-maybe ()
>>   (when (save-excursion
>>           (set-buffer (gnus-summary-buffer-name gnus-newsgroup-name))
>>           gnus-mailing-list-mode)
>>     (message-add-header (concat "Mail-Followup-To: "
>>                                 (gnus-group-get-parameter
>>                                  gnus-newsgroup-name 'to-list))
>>                         "Mail-Copies-To: never")))
>
> That's the complicated version. ;-)
>
> 'Mail-Followup-To' can be generated by Gnus. You first must tell Gnus
> to which mailing lists your are actually subscribed to, by setting the
> "subscribed" group parameter (use 'G c' over the group and check
> "Subscribed").

I don't like configs which are not in ~/.gnus.el, but I've set that in
my gnus-parameters:

,----[ C-h v gnus-parameters RET ]
| gnus-parameters is a variable defined in `gnus.el'.
| Its value is shown below.
| 
| Documentation:
| Alist of group parameters.

[...]

| Value: 
| (("Fastmail:INBOX\\.mailinglists\\."
|   (gcc-self . "nnimap+Fastmail:INBOX.Sent Items")
|   (subscribed . t))

[...]

|  ("Uni:ml"
|   (subscribed . t)
|   (gcc-self . "nnimap+Uni:Sent"))
|  ("Uni:"
|   (gnus-use-scoring nil)
|   (gcc-self . t)))
`----

All mailing list groups are below Fastmail:INBOX.mailinglists or Uni:ml.

At least when writing a new message, the headers are not there.  Maybe
they're added after I send the message away with C-c C-c?

> Then put
>
> (setq message-subscribed-address-functions
>       '(gnus-find-subscribed-addresses))

I already have that.

> in your .gnus. This will set the variable 'message-subscribed-addresses'
> (which you can also set directly, without using the group parameter).

Hm, that's always nil.  I thought it's possibly set buffer-locally in a
mailinglist's summary or in a message buffer, but it's not...

Bye,
Tassilo
-- 
A child of five could understand this! Fetch me a child of five!

Re: Usage of gnus mailing list mode

[David Engster]

Tassilo Horn <tassilo@member.fsf.org> writes:
> I don't like configs which are not in ~/.gnus.el, but I've set that in
> my gnus-parameters:

That should work.

> At least when writing a new message, the headers are not there.  Maybe
> they're added after I send the message away with C-c C-c?

Yes, they're added later. You can preview the headers with C-c RET P.

>> Then put
>>
>> (setq message-subscribed-address-functions
>>       '(gnus-find-subscribed-addresses))
>
> I already have that.
>
>> in your .gnus. This will set the variable 'message-subscribed-addresses'
>> (which you can also set directly, without using the group parameter).
>
> Hm, that's always nil.  I thought it's possibly set buffer-locally in a
> mailinglist's summary or in a message buffer, but it's not...

What I wrote was wrong, sorry. Setting
message-subscribed-address-functions does not set
message-subscribed-addresses. Instead, the function(s) listed in the
former variable are evaluated to get a list of mailing-list addresses
you're subscribed to.

You can check this by evaluating

(gnus-find-subscribed-addresses)

This should return every 'to-list address where 'subscribed is t.

Alternatively, you can work without the 'subscribed' group parameter and
set message-subscribed-addresses manually in your .gnus, which should
have the same effect.

-David

Re: Usage of gnus mailing list mode

[Miles Bader]

Tassilo Horn <tassilo@member.fsf.org> writes:
> Personally, I don't like it too much if people reply to my mailing list
> articles to both me and the list.  IMHO that's redundant and annoying.
> Is that a convention and are there good reasons for such a double-reply?

It is indeed a (very long-standing) convention, with a pretty good
justification -- when you're not _sure_ the other person reads the list,
it's better to be safe than sorry.  And you can't be sure, in general.

-Miles

-- 
/\ /\
(^.^)
(")")
*This is the cute kitty virus, please copy this into your sig so it can spread.

Re: Usage of gnus mailing list mode

[Tassilo Horn]

Miles Bader <miles.bader@necel.com> writes:

Hi Miles,

>> Personally, I don't like it too much if people reply to my mailing
>> list articles to both me and the list.  IMHO that's redundant and
>> annoying.  Is that a convention and are there good reasons for such a
>> double-reply?
>
> It is indeed a (very long-standing) convention, with a pretty good
> justification -- when you're not _sure_ the other person reads the
> list, it's better to be safe than sorry.  And you can't be sure, in
> general.

Well, ok.  Sometimes that may be correct.  But most mailing lists allow
posting only by subscribers, so there's no reason to handle the issue
that the original poster doesn't read the list.

Bye,
Tassilo

Re: Usage of gnus mailing list mode

[Miles Bader]

Tassilo Horn <tassilo@member.fsf.org> writes:
>> It is indeed a (very long-standing) convention, with a pretty good
>> justification -- when you're not _sure_ the other person reads the
>> list, it's better to be safe than sorry.  And you can't be sure, in
>> general.
>
> Well, ok.  Sometimes that may be correct.  But most mailing lists allow
> posting only by subscribers, so there's no reason to handle the issue
> that the original poster doesn't read the list.

Unless you can show that is true of _all_ mailing lists, or at least
something like 99% (and though subscriber-only lists are pretty common
these days, I suspect you can't -- indeed many GNU lists allow posting
by non-subscribers), then there certainly is a reason to use the safer
default.

If Gnus happens to have more information about a particular mailing
list, of course it could try to be more clever in that case.

-Miles

-- 
Erudition, n. Dust shaken out of a book into an empty skull.

Re: Usage of gnus mailing list mode

[Tassilo Horn]

Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> writes:

Hi Miles,

>> Well, ok.  Sometimes that may be correct.  But most mailing lists
>> allow posting only by subscribers, so there's no reason to handle the
>> issue that the original poster doesn't read the list.
>
> Unless you can show that is true of _all_ mailing lists, or at least
> something like 99% (and though subscriber-only lists are pretty common
> these days, I suspect you can't -- indeed many GNU lists allow posting
> by non-subscribers), then there certainly is a reason to use the safer
> default.

No no, I won't vote for changing the default, I just wanted to to know
the reason for that.  And thanks to your clear explanation I'm now
enlightened. ;-)

Bye,
Tassilo