From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.emacs.gnus.general/88780 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Bob Newell Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.gnus.general Subject: Re: Proposed new introductory section to the Gnus manual Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 08:34:08 -1000 Organization: Avi Gobbler Publishing Message-ID: <878sqoqee7.fsf@bobnewell.net> References: <87o90mm4x2.fsf@ericabrahamsen.net> <87blwmuh6j.fsf@dick.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> <87mug6klq3.fsf@ericabrahamsen.net> <87mug5bpuh.fsf@ucl.ac.uk> <87y2zojwbz.fsf@ericabrahamsen.net> <871rxggj9l.fsf@gmail.com> <87d0g9q44t.fsf@ericabrahamsen.net> <87a7bdelf4.fsf@gmail.com> <87tv9lmhzt.fsf@bobnewell.net> <875zm1w8sf.fsf@gmail.com> <87d0g8khcw.fsf@ericabrahamsen.net> <87pnk7vr51.fsf@gmail.com> <87k1afiucn.fsf@ericabrahamsen.net> <87d0g4k0z5.fsf@ericabrahamsen.net> <87tv9ddk64.fsf@ericabrahamsen.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="13113"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.3 (gnu/linux) Cc: ding@gnus.org To: Eric Abrahamsen Original-X-From: ding-owner+M36984@lists.math.uh.edu Mon Sep 16 20:34:35 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: ding-account@gmane.org Original-Received: from lists1.math.uh.edu ([129.7.128.208]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1i9vpb-0003AR-CM for ding-account@gmane.org; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 20:34:35 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.math.uh.edu) by lists1.math.uh.edu with smtp (Exim 4.92.2) (envelope-from ) id 1i9vpV-0006Bg-EX; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 13:34:29 -0500 Original-Received: from mx2.math.uh.edu ([129.7.128.33]) by lists1.math.uh.edu with esmtps (TLSv1.3:TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.2) (envelope-from ) id 1i9vpS-00068z-MZ for ding@lists.math.uh.edu; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 13:34:26 -0500 Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.231.51]) by mx2.math.uh.edu with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.2) (envelope-from ) id 1i9vpM-0004IA-EP for ding@lists.math.uh.edu; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 13:34:26 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-pl1-f182.google.com ([209.85.214.182]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1i9vpF-0004a8-4J for ding@gnus.org; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 20:34:18 +0200 Original-Received: by mail-pl1-f182.google.com with SMTP id s17so288052plp.2 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 11:34:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bobnewell-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:to:cc:subject:organization:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=7u8s/UVUL0vSLvUtz9RhlRRR/2mlLpf72OFKHavOwEI=; b=PCjVeg3pvWy4hYs9xnQVQ+TQ/SI7GEq4Ifu8VRGLhyKxH15f/ifKwiQaP7twvFTl0k T0UZbVVjN399GMn4a7lnWps7Qnwna+oxWcReJBCVVxbr8tGYHwmJUwDGpOLztTp27Kzq SgHCeE00dhUiAX+5WDGtvQBZlcSo/VB/B2B+cnQlqR5VFMxESFcO/Po5rahGRqdCIjpW WO8Crk/uJYYxrOgclZJgdDhgq1s385OG/B97ZQtTwlvgb0g+XTVeTTvemLBK0sCXz5es Dxo74os0IC9VMBzgkq/Cn2daBHciFDyp/SSpMIfZIX9LqEV3X2EKBExO5g6bXJs5T6Cl WDgg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:organization:references:date :in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=7u8s/UVUL0vSLvUtz9RhlRRR/2mlLpf72OFKHavOwEI=; b=L2r5JnKyFeO5ETwPhLvqVN4uiy2PnEbkE8SekAlBL5X4SnMI3Yg58ILSXxjzXCGV7m 6CefZCs4Q+Xo4HPUBOd81taTDfpB7yzmjiXJ5Ch3itifueDBVq3zn32W7SAo/QNhcEg9 cBWO0p2JmJ7Lu+C6mu+4Fw2gc1v11NllTkEwXta9DHtp8i2+angPN0GzRb+1lqshj8Bi kbyp8FM9Ht8GlrXEi8nudZASrTBWYp6P7n+KQtN3xz8FV2yd5RIIl6fqUTRelfkUoDJX jAcIxR3oI6obv9IM0pvg4oWjz+D+uKttwmnu6WqITy5Md/YlokncSHsti7q4M/kw923V i6KA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWs1uOOdgjMTQva3v4SiosRur9H5DFGU7awFzCqXwfhzCBz/Yr+ FWcAZ/GKrznXKSQ7wdz9m4mewB3I3/9zTA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwnWzheOgAUaI7E3jL91BKTKkRvTO33I8hzeAr1LcKCv3FF0j1yu6e5XJAqYwTg/jSQFvjgdg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:a705:: with SMTP id w5mr1176685plq.228.1568658850597; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 11:34:10 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from localhost ([2607:f278:410e:2:81ea:658e:137a:b723]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q132sm41117653pfq.16.2019.09.16.11.34.09 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 16 Sep 2019 11:34:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87tv9ddk64.fsf@ericabrahamsen.net> (Eric Abrahamsen's message of "Mon, 16 Sep 2019 10:55:31 +0800") List-ID: Precedence: bulk Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.gnus.general:88780 Archived-At: Eric Abrahamsen writes: > Oh I definitely agree, and have no intention of reducing Gnus' > user-facing complexity. But I think a bit more hand-holding for newbies > couldn't hurt. It was truly frustrating in the beginning. I should clarify that I'm in no way advocating gnus being some sort of elitist club, to which one must earn entry by becoming proficient in elisp and undergoing initiation rites which include the pain and suffering nearly all of us felt at the outset (and often well beyond). Hand-holding for newbies is a great idea. And perhaps a carefully curated selection of sample .gnus files would really go a long way. There are various things out there now, but they are by turns scattered, contradictory, and at times outdated. I'll stand with my assertion that, if you're going to truly benefit from gnus and make it sing and dance to the exact tune you desire, you'll have to reach a certain level with elisp, perhaps something between advanced beginner and intermediate (though I won't try to define these). But that's further along. If you don't get past square one, it's all moot. -- Bob Newell Honolulu, Hawai`i * Via Gnus/BBDB/Org/Emacs/Linux *