Marks are going to be removed from Ma Gnus

Marks are going to be removed from Ma Gnus

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

I've never understood the point of having marks in nnml, nnfolder and
nntp.  Other than "oo, the .newsrc.eld file is so scary".

Which it isn't.

So I'm going to remove all the backend marks stuff from these three
backends.  Unless someone has a good reason why not to do that.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no  *  Sent from my Rome

Re: Marks are going to be removed from Ma Gnus

[James Cloos]

>>>>> "LI" == Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

LI> So I'm going to remove all the backend marks stuff from [the nnml,
LI> nnfolder and nntp] backends.

Is that to say, remove the use of .marks files under the ~/News/marks
hierarchy in favour of storing the data in the ~/.newsrc.eld instead?

-JimC
-- 
James Cloos <cloos@jhcloos.com>         OpenPGP: 1024D/ED7DAEA6

Re: Marks are going to be removed from Ma Gnus

[Steinar Bang]

>>>>> Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org>:

> I've never understood the point of having marks in nnml, nnfolder and
> nntp.  Other than "oo, the .newsrc.eld file is so scary".

> Which it isn't.

Well, it is... but duplicating the stuff that it's actually is _for_, is
not the solution.  The stuff I would like to move out, is:
 - Servers
 - Group parameters

It would be nice to have this in a file that could be version controlled
(ie. a file that would change more rarely than .newsrc.eld).

> So I'm going to remove all the backend marks stuff from these three
> backends.  Unless someone has a good reason why not to do that.

Nah.  Sounds good.

Re: Marks are going to be removed from Ma Gnus

[Philipp Haselwarter]

On Sun, Feb 12 2012 22:14 (@1329081248), Steinar Bang wrote:

>>>>>> Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org>:
>
>> I've never understood the point of having marks in nnml, nnfolder and
>> nntp.  Other than "oo, the .newsrc.eld file is so scary".
>
>> Which it isn't.
>
> Well, it is... but duplicating the stuff that it's actually is _for_, is
> not the solution.  The stuff I would like to move out, is:
>  - Servers
>  - Group parameters
>
> It would be nice to have this in a file that could be version controlled
> (ie. a file that would change more rarely than .newsrc.eld).

1+
I'm not sure how the sync efforts are coming along, but for now I'm
still using git for all my config files…

---8<---[snipped 7 lines]---8<---



-- 
Philipp Haselwarter

Re: Marks are going to be removed from Ma Gnus

[Didier Verna]

Philipp Haselwarter <philipp.haselwarter@gmx.de> wrote:

> I'm not sure how the sync efforts are coming along, but for now I'm
> still using git for all my config files…

Same here, although for Gnus, I'm using rsync separately from the rest
of my account's configuration (it changes more often). With appropriate
settings for various directory variables, the amount of syncing needed
can boil down to 3 files and one directory for me:

.bbdb, .newsrc, .newsrc.eld, and .gnus/

-- 
Resistance is futile. You will be jazzimilated.

Scientific site:   http://www.lrde.epita.fr/~didier
Music (Jazz) site: http://www.didierverna.com

Re: Marks are going to be removed from Ma Gnus

[Peter Münster]

On Mon, Feb 13 2012, Didier Verna wrote:

> With appropriate settings for various directory variables, the amount
> of syncing needed can boil down to 3 files and one directory for me:
>
> .bbdb, .newsrc, .newsrc.eld, and .gnus/

You can put .bbdb and .newsrc.eld to a better place with `bbdb-file' and
`gnus-startup-file'.
(I don't know for .newsrc, because I've set gnus-{read,save}-newsrc-file
to nil.)

-- 
           Peter

Re: Marks are going to be removed from Ma Gnus

[Tassilo Horn]

Peter Münster <pmlists@free.fr> writes:

>> With appropriate settings for various directory variables, the amount
>> of syncing needed can boil down to 3 files and one directory for me:
>>
>> .bbdb, .newsrc, .newsrc.eld, and .gnus/
>
> You can put .bbdb and .newsrc.eld to a better place with `bbdb-file'
> and `gnus-startup-file'.
> (I don't know for .newsrc, because I've set
> gnus-{read,save}-newsrc-file to nil.)

You can also set `gnus-home-directory'.  I've set it to "~/.gnus.d/" so
that Mail/ and News/ don't clutter my $HOME.  The .newsrc* files and the
registry database are also in ~/.gnus.d/ then.

BTW: This variable has to be set before Gnus is loaded, so you have to
set it in ~/.emacs.

Bye,
Tassilo

Re: Marks are going to be removed from Ma Gnus

[Carson Chittom]

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> I've never understood the point of having marks in nnml, nnfolder and
> nntp.  Other than "oo, the .newsrc.eld file is so scary".
>
> Which it isn't.
>
> So I'm going to remove all the backend marks stuff from these three
> backends.  Unless someone has a good reason why not to do that.

You mean marks like !, ?, etc?  I'd really ask that you not, at least
for nntp.  I've got a mind like a sieve, so I often find that in order
to post a coherent reply to someone, I've got to re-find the data I
need.  I mark the article ! and come back to later (sometimes hours
later).  (Since you don't mention nnmbox or nnimap, I suppose I could
actually subscribe to the mailing lists I normally read via nntp on
Gmane, and work things that way.)

Also, don't you almost have to keep at least read/unread markings so
Gnus knows which to display and the user knows which to read?

Or am I way off base here?

Re: Marks are going to be removed from Ma Gnus

[Sivaram Neelakantan]

On Mon, Feb 13 2012,Tassilo Horn wrote:


[snipped 12 lines]

> You can also set `gnus-home-directory'.  I've set it to "~/.gnus.d/" so
> that Mail/ and News/ don't clutter my $HOME.  The .newsrc* files and the
> registry database are also in ~/.gnus.d/ then.
>
> BTW: This variable has to be set before Gnus is loaded, so you have to
> set it in ~/.emacs.
>

[snipped 4 lines]

Hey, could you do  a separate post on how to get all gnus related
files, mail, news, config and other stuff it creates in a single
folder or place?  I think me and Richard Riley asked about this in a
couple of previous posts.

If you have time and are willing to, of course.

 sivaram
 -- 

Re: Marks are going to be removed from Ma Gnus

[Peter Münster]

On Mon, Feb 13 2012, Sivaram Neelakantan wrote:

> Hey, could you do  a separate post on how to get all gnus related
> files, mail, news, config and other stuff it creates in a single
> folder or place?  I think me and Richard Riley asked about this in a
> couple of previous posts.
>
> If you have time and are willing to, of course.
>
>  sivaram
>  -- 
>
>
>

-- 
           Peter

Re: Marks are going to be removed from Ma Gnus

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Mon, 13 Feb 2012 01:01:46 +0100 Philipp Haselwarter <philipp.haselwarter@gmx.de> wrote: 

PH> I'm not sure how the sync efforts are coming along, but for now I'm
PH> still using git for all my config files…

gnus-sync.el will sync your marks and subscriptions (no servers and
group/topic parameters) to either a file or to a CouchDB installation.
The CouchDB storage format (I call it LeSync) is designed to be usable
by other newsreaders.

I can add servers and group/topic parameters but synchronizing those
could have extremely surprising results, and would not be very useful to
other newsreaders without some kind of "profile" facility to reflect
that some servers are not available in some locations.

Ted

Re: Marks are going to be removed from Ma Gnus

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Sun, 12 Feb 2012 21:56:28 +0100 Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> wrote: 

LI> I've never understood the point of having marks in nnml, nnfolder and
LI> nntp.  Other than "oo, the .newsrc.eld file is so scary".

LI> Which it isn't.

LI> So I'm going to remove all the backend marks stuff from these three
LI> backends.  Unless someone has a good reason why not to do that.

I think that's a really good plan.

Ted

all in one folder (was: Marks are going to be removed from Ma Gnus)

[Peter Münster]

On Mon, Feb 13 2012, Sivaram Neelakantan wrote:

> Hey, could you do  a separate post on how to get all gnus related
> files, mail, news, config and other stuff it creates in a single
> folder or place?

I've done so with all *emacs* related files:
- .emacs.d/init.el instead of .emacs
- setq the following variables with prefix ".emacs.d/" (YMMV):
  - ispell-personal-dictionary
  - bbdb-file
  - custom-file
  - diary-file
  - gnus-init-file
  - slime-repl-history-file
  - gnus-startup-file
  - nnmail-message-id-cache-file
- use gnus-home-directory as mentioned by Tassilo

-- 
           Peter

cannot cancel message (was: Marks are going to be removed from Ma Gnus)

[Peter Münster]

On Mon, Feb 13 2012, Peter Münster wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 13 2012, Sivaram Neelakantan wrote:
>
>> Hey, could you do  a separate post on how to get all gnus related
>> files, mail, news, config and other stuff it creates in a single
>> folder or place?  I think me and Richard Riley asked about this in a
>> couple of previous posts.
>>
>> If you have time and are willing to, of course.
>>
>>  sivaram


Hello,

I want to cancel this message with `gnus-summary-cancel-article', but gnus
says:
        "This article is not yours"

But I'm sure, that it's mine. What am I doing wrong?

TIA for any help!
-- 
           Peter

Re: cannot cancel message

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Peter Münster <pmlists@free.fr> writes:

> I want to cancel this message with `gnus-summary-cancel-article', but gnus
> says:
>         "This article is not yours"
>
> But I'm sure, that it's mine. What am I doing wrong?

Did you change your email address between posting and cancelling?  And
is there a Cancel-Lock header in the message?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no  *  Sent from my Rome

Re: Marks are going to be removed from Ma Gnus

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

James Cloos <cloos@jhcloos.com> writes:

> Is that to say, remove the use of .marks files under the ~/News/marks
> hierarchy in favour of storing the data in the ~/.newsrc.eld instead?

Sort of.  The marks stuff just duplicates data that's already in
~/.newsrc.eld.  So I'm getting rid of the duplication.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no  *  Sent from my Rome

Re: Marks are going to be removed from Ma Gnus

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Carson Chittom <carson@wistly.net> writes:

> You mean marks like !, ?, etc?  I'd really ask that you not, at least
> for nntp.

It's just about how the marks are stored.  They're currently duplicated.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no  *  Sent from my Rome

Re: cannot cancel message

[Peter Münster]

On Mon, Feb 13 2012, Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote:

> Did you change your email address between posting and cancelling?

No. But the from address comes from my gnus-parameters:
(posting-style (address "pmlists@free.fr"))
It's different from the user-mail-address.

So I changed temporarily my user-mail-address and it works, thanks!

Shouldn't the cancel-message function check the real from address, that
would be used in the current group, rather than the user-mail-address?

-- 
           Peter

Re: cannot cancel message

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Peter Münster <pmlists@free.fr> writes:

> Shouldn't the cancel-message function check the real from address, that
> would be used in the current group, rather than the user-mail-address?

Yes, it should.  Please report this as a bug.  (I mean, I tried looking
at the code in question just now, and it made my eyes water.  Reporting
it as a bug will ensure that, er, somebody gets to it later...)

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no  *  Sent from my Rome

Re: Marks are going to be removed from Ma Gnus

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

I have now removed the backend marks handling from nntp, nnml and
nnfolder.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no  *  Sent from my Rome

Re: Marks are going to be removed from Ma Gnus

[Steinar Bang]

>>>>> Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com>:

> gnus-sync.el will sync your marks and subscriptions (no servers and
> group/topic parameters) to either a file or to a CouchDB installation.
> The CouchDB storage format (I call it LeSync) is designed to be usable
> by other newsreaders.

> I can add servers and group/topic parameters but synchronizing those
> could have extremely surprising results, and would not be very useful
> to other newsreaders without some kind of "profile" facility to
> reflect that some servers are not available in some locations.

In other words: moving the slowly changing stuff (group parameters,
servers) into a separate file that could be versioned by git, could be a
good idea, even with gnus-sync...?

Re: Marks are going to be removed from Ma Gnus

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Mon, 13 Feb 2012 23:43:09 +0100 Steinar Bang <sb@dod.no> wrote: 

>>>>>> Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com>:
>> gnus-sync.el will sync your marks and subscriptions (no servers and
>> group/topic parameters) to either a file or to a CouchDB installation.
>> The CouchDB storage format (I call it LeSync) is designed to be usable
>> by other newsreaders.

>> I can add servers and group/topic parameters but synchronizing those
>> could have extremely surprising results, and would not be very useful
>> to other newsreaders without some kind of "profile" facility to
>> reflect that some servers are not available in some locations.

SB> In other words: moving the slowly changing stuff (group parameters,
SB> servers) into a separate file that could be versioned by git, could be a
SB> good idea, even with gnus-sync...?

Yes.  Or it could be managed by gnus-sync with some care.  So far
there's only the two of us using it so I'm not sure how much effort I
should put into these enhancements.

Ted

Re: Marks are going to be removed from Ma Gnus

[Reiner Steib]

On Sun, Feb 12 2012, Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote:

> I've never understood the point of having marks in nnml, nnfolder and
> nntp.  Other than "oo, the .newsrc.eld file is so scary".

Well, the arguments mentioned in (info "(gnus)Mail Spool") seem
reasonable, at least for nnfolder and nnml.  But I have disabled them
for nntp since day one.

,----[ (info "(gnus)Mail Spool") ]
|    When the marks file is used (which it is by default), `nnml' servers
| have the property that you may backup them using `tar' or similar, and
| later be able to restore them into Gnus (by adding the proper `nnml'
| server) and have all your marks be preserved.  Marks for a group are
| usually stored in the `.marks' file (but see `nnml-marks-file-name')
| within each `nnml' group's directory.  Individual `nnml' groups are
| also possible to backup, use `G m' to restore the group (after
| restoring the backup into the nnml directory).
`----

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo---  |  PGP key available  |  http://rsteib.home.pages.de/

Re: Marks are going to be removed from Ma Gnus

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Reiner Steib <reinersteib+gmane@imap.cc> writes:

>> I've never understood the point of having marks in nnml, nnfolder and
>> nntp.  Other than "oo, the .newsrc.eld file is so scary".
>
> Well, the arguments mentioned in (info "(gnus)Mail Spool") seem
> reasonable, at least for nnfolder and nnml.

Yeah, they're reasonable, but not altogether compelling.  Especially
when looking at the amount of code and the persistent bugs...

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no  *  Sent from my Rome