From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.emacs.gnus.general/88769 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eric Abrahamsen Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.gnus.general Subject: Re: Proposed new introductory section to the Gnus manual Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2019 17:19:10 +0800 Message-ID: <87d0g4k0z5.fsf@ericabrahamsen.net> References: <87o90mm4x2.fsf@ericabrahamsen.net> <87blwmuh6j.fsf@dick.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> <87mug6klq3.fsf@ericabrahamsen.net> <87mug5bpuh.fsf@ucl.ac.uk> <87y2zojwbz.fsf@ericabrahamsen.net> <871rxggj9l.fsf@gmail.com> <87d0g9q44t.fsf@ericabrahamsen.net> <87a7bdelf4.fsf@gmail.com> <87tv9lmhzt.fsf@bobnewell.net> <875zm1w8sf.fsf@gmail.com> <87d0g8khcw.fsf@ericabrahamsen.net> <87pnk7vr51.fsf@gmail.com> <87k1afiucn.fsf@ericabrahamsen.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="228211"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) To: ding@gnus.org Original-X-From: ding-owner+M36973@lists.math.uh.edu Fri Sep 13 11:20:19 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: ding-account@gmane.org Original-Received: from lists1.math.uh.edu ([129.7.128.208]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1i8hkW-000xCF-Ra for ding-account@gmane.org; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 11:20:16 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.math.uh.edu) by lists1.math.uh.edu with smtp (Exim 4.92.2) (envelope-from ) id 1i8hjk-0002WL-78; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 04:19:28 -0500 Original-Received: from mx2.math.uh.edu ([129.7.128.33]) by lists1.math.uh.edu with esmtps (TLSv1.3:TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.2) (envelope-from ) id 1i8hjg-0002Tc-24 for ding@lists.math.uh.edu; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 04:19:24 -0500 Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.231.51]) by mx2.math.uh.edu with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.2) (envelope-from ) id 1i8hje-0005yM-EC for ding@lists.math.uh.edu; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 04:19:23 -0500 Original-Received: from 195-159-176-226.customer.powertech.no ([195.159.176.226] helo=blaine.gmane.org) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1i8hja-0006yE-Id for ding@gnus.org; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 11:19:20 +0200 Original-Received: from list by blaine.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1i8hjZ-000w28-ID for ding@gnus.org; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 11:19:17 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Cancel-Lock: sha1:HKrTOlJwY2fFCynZOh2zxjKcNSI= List-ID: Precedence: bulk Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.gnus.general:88769 Archived-At: Michael writes: > On 9/10/19 3:50 PM, Eric Abrahamsen wrote: >> dick writes: >> >>> EA> Gnus has a lot of variables with >>> EA> pretty convoluted value-structures. I wonder if its Customize support is >>> EA> currently up to snuff >>> >>> It is not. One such convoluted value-structure is `gnus-parameters`. >>> Configuring that via the Customize interface is like digging a ditch with a >>> toy shovel. Even a basic parameter like `gnus-secondary-select-methods` >>> requires knowledge of how a Gnus METHOD is composed. >> Yeah, I suppose. Customize just wasn't meant to handle values that >> complicated. Gnus also has its own home-grown (of course) "edit forms" >> (gnus-eform.el) which currently just dump you in an elisp buffer where >> you have to edit elisp forms, but could be smarter about >> presenting/parsing complicated values in a user-friendly way. >> >>> It bears repeating that introducing `gnus-secondary-select-methods` instead of >>> vectorizing `gnus-select-method` was a mistake that can still be >>> corrected fairly easily. >> That's on my list of things to do, but as a user-facing change, it's at >> the bottom of the list. >> >> > I really like Gnus and I have tried to use it a couple of times, but > always gave up. It is getting harder for me, at my age, to > remember/memorize all the different commands. A hindrance for users at any age :) There are whole aspects of Gnus (scoring, spam, agent categories, etc) that I have never touched, simply because I couldn't be bothered with the learning curve. > Not knowing lisp is for me also a hindrance. > > However, I want to thank you for working on the introduction and the > quick guide. It has given me a better understanding. With that, and > the added links posted, I'm getting more familiar with how to use Gnus > and close to using it for all my news and email :) > > I'd love to help since I'm just an old retired man, but don't know > enough to help :) With all due respect, your ignorance of Gnus might be just the thing we need :) I think most people on this list remember that the early experience was bad, but don't really remember the details, or what would have helped. If you kept an eye on discussion here, and piped up whenever a bit of information seemed a) nonsensical or b) just the thing you needed to figure out a problem, that might be the biggest help you could provide. For instance, what part of my intro (and the other links posted in this thread) was most useful? Thanks! Eric