From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.emacs.gnus.general/82042 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ted Zlatanov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.gnus.general Subject: Re: I can haz cloud idea Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 10:31:00 -0400 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Message-ID: <87hat5m997.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <87fwebnzd8.fsf@gnus.org> <1swr7nl0tf.fsf@voll.uninett.no> <87mx8elugg.fsf@gnus.org> <87aa4banji.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ty1wzjui.fsf@lifelogs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1342621882 30277 80.91.229.3 (18 Jul 2012 14:31:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 14:31:22 +0000 (UTC) Cc: ding@gnus.org To: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen Original-X-From: ding-owner+M30312@lists.math.uh.edu Wed Jul 18 16:31:22 2012 Return-path: Envelope-to: ding-account@gmane.org Original-Received: from util0.math.uh.edu ([129.7.128.18]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1SrVHd-0003J4-0J for ding-account@gmane.org; Wed, 18 Jul 2012 16:31:21 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.math.uh.edu) by util0.math.uh.edu with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1SrVHS-0006cV-Cn; Wed, 18 Jul 2012 09:31:10 -0500 Original-Received: from mx1.math.uh.edu ([129.7.128.32]) by util0.math.uh.edu with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1SrVHQ-0006cL-RQ for ding@lists.math.uh.edu; Wed, 18 Jul 2012 09:31:08 -0500 Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.231.51]) by mx1.math.uh.edu with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1SrVHM-0003bd-8i for ding@lists.math.uh.edu; Wed, 18 Jul 2012 09:31:08 -0500 Original-Received: from z.lifelogs.com ([173.255.230.239]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1SrVHK-00065p-OJ; Wed, 18 Jul 2012 16:31:02 +0200 Original-Received: from heechee (c-76-28-40-19.hsd1.vt.comcast.net [76.28.40.19]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: tzz) by z.lifelogs.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6A09562DDA; Wed, 18 Jul 2012 14:31:01 +0000 (UTC) X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6;d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" In-Reply-To: <87ty1wzjui.fsf@lifelogs.com> (Ted Zlatanov's message of "Sat, 10 Mar 2012 08:06:13 -0500") User-Agent: Gnus/5.130006 (Ma Gnus v0.6) Emacs/24.1.50 (gnu/linux) X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) List-ID: Precedence: bulk Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.gnus.general:82042 Archived-At: On Sat, 10 Mar 2012 08:06:13 -0500 Ted Zlatanov wrote: TZ> On Sat, 10 Mar 2012 02:12:29 +0100 Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen wrote: LMI> Ted Zlatanov writes: LI> It'll be like using the IMAP synchronisation methodology, only for all LI> backends and stuff. >>> >>> OK. But that's nearly impossible to share with other MUAs, unlike my >>> LeSync proposal, and I hope you don't use deltas as I said above. LMI> I don't think sharing this data with other MUAs should be a primary LMI> design goal here... LMI> The use case here (which I think is the typical use case, these days) is LMI> "I read email all the time, and then I read a couple of groups from LMI> eternal-news, and 74 groups from news.gmane.org, and I want those extra LMI> groups to sync just like my mail". Like magic, without having to know LMI> or set up anything else. TZ> OK, you're solving a different problem. Mine is "I want to read and TZ> sync NNTP groups from various MUAs." TZ> I'll keep maintaining gnus-sync.el separately from you, so I can keep it TZ> open to other MUAs. Due to external commitments I'm not working on this for a while, but wanted to write a followup so people can comment. I think general "cloudiness" is a good thing nowadays, but sacrificing Lisp's power to be compatible with less powerful MUAs is not. So a Lispy cloudiness is a better goal, perhaps implemented with an IMAP backend. All of the Emacs ecosystem could benefit from such functionality: BBDB, general data storage, auth-sources, .emacs and installed ELPA packages, and so on. But even just for Gnus it's a good thing. I've been using CouchDB a lot with gnus-sync.el, and think you were right about relying on CouchDB itself. It's a pain in the long term, like any database. It's not Lispy at all, either. I'd like to work with you set up an IMAP sync backend, perhaps driven by gnus-sync.el, and rework gnus-sync.el as needed. The file backend should stay if possible; the LeSync protocol should simply become a Lisp data merge (we'll give the users the tools to upgrade). The main reason I agree is that I think the Lisp to JSON and back conversion is not good. Lisp data is so much more capable than JSON, that flattening it into JSON makes sync very complicated. Also I think there's no benefit to sharing that data with other MUAs, because the standalone MUA is a dying breed. Web-based MUAs are the norm now, and they don't share well... unless you use IMAP, in which case Gnus works fine already. For NNTP marks, the need for sharing is just not there. Ted