* forwarding as text rather than MIME? @ 1999-02-15 18:20 Bill White 1999-02-15 20:36 ` Hans de Graaff 0 siblings, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread From: Bill White @ 1999-02-15 18:20 UTC (permalink / raw) Pterodactyl Gnus v0.76, GNU Emacs 20.3.1 (i586-unicent-linux-gnu, X toolkit) of Thu Aug 20 1998 on banshee In pgnus 0.76, mail forwarding now forwards a mime message rather than text. It would be nice if the forward functions could be customized to give the user a choice of which format to use. Thanks - bw -- Bill White . billw@wolfram.com . http://www.wolfram.com/~billw ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: forwarding as text rather than MIME? 1999-02-15 18:20 forwarding as text rather than MIME? Bill White @ 1999-02-15 20:36 ` Hans de Graaff 1999-02-19 14:23 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread From: Hans de Graaff @ 1999-02-15 20:36 UTC (permalink / raw) Bill White <billw@wolfram.com> writes: > In pgnus 0.76, mail forwarding now forwards a mime message rather > than text. It would be nice if the forward functions could be > customized to give the user a choice of which format to use. Ha, so that is why things are broken now. I forwarded some messages yesterday to my work address, where I (need to) use Outlook 98. Outlook could not read the messages, and when pressed offered me to view the raw text of the message in Notepad. I'll dig up the exact messages tomorrow at work. Hans ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: forwarding as text rather than MIME? 1999-02-15 20:36 ` Hans de Graaff @ 1999-02-19 14:23 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1999-02-20 9:44 ` Hans de Graaff 0 siblings, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1999-02-19 14:23 UTC (permalink / raw) Hans de Graaff <graaff@xs4all.nl> writes: > Ha, so that is why things are broken now. I forwarded some messages > yesterday to my work address, where I (need to) use Outlook > 98. Outlook could not read the messages, and when pressed offered me > to view the raw text of the message in Notepad. I'll dig up the exact > messages tomorrow at work. Please do. The suckiness of MIME implementations around the world continue to stagger me. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: forwarding as text rather than MIME? 1999-02-19 14:23 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1999-02-20 9:44 ` Hans de Graaff 1999-02-21 7:21 ` Chris Tessone 1999-04-03 7:28 ` Hans de Graaff 0 siblings, 2 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Hans de Graaff @ 1999-02-20 9:44 UTC (permalink / raw) Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes: > > Ha, so that is why things are broken now. I forwarded some messages > > yesterday to my work address, where I (need to) use Outlook > > 98. Outlook could not read the messages, and when pressed offered me > > to view the raw text of the message in Notepad. I'll dig up the exact > > messages tomorrow at work. > > The suckiness of MIME implementations around the world continue to > stagger me. The plot thickens, because some messages I forwarded yesterday (using the MIME stuff) did come out just fine in Outlook. So it does appear to be related to particulars of the messages. Of course, Outlook makes debugging this quite hard because you can't get at the raw text of the message, so comparing a failed and a succeeded message is a problem. However, I should be able to get some more details if I retrieve the messages with fetchmail. I'll do that after the weekend. Hans ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: forwarding as text rather than MIME? 1999-02-20 9:44 ` Hans de Graaff @ 1999-02-21 7:21 ` Chris Tessone 1999-02-21 10:38 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1999-04-03 7:28 ` Hans de Graaff 1 sibling, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread From: Chris Tessone @ 1999-02-21 7:21 UTC (permalink / raw) >>>>> "Hans" == Hans de Graaff <graaff@xs4all.nl> writes: Hans> The plot thickens, because some messages I forwarded Hans> yesterday (using the MIME stuff) did come out just fine in Hans> Outlook. So it does appear to be related to particulars of Hans> the messages. Of course, Outlook makes debugging this quite Hans> hard because you can't get at the raw text of the message, Hans> so comparing a failed and a succeeded message is a Hans> problem. However, I should be able to get some more details Hans> if I retrieve the messages with fetchmail. I'll do that Hans> after the weekend. MIME things are being strange... Anyhow, when did it occur that Gnus forwards stuff as MIME instead of just plain text (as God intended)? Did I miss an entire discussion about that or did someone just slip it in? -- Chris Tessone tessone@imsa.edu tessone@fnal.gov IMSA PH/Postmaster SNPC http://www.imsa.edu/~tessone/ print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<> )]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc` ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: forwarding as text rather than MIME? 1999-02-21 7:21 ` Chris Tessone @ 1999-02-21 10:38 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1999-02-21 19:37 ` Chris Tessone 0 siblings, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1999-02-21 10:38 UTC (permalink / raw) Chris Tessone <tessone@fnal.gov> writes: > Anyhow, when did it occur that Gnus forwards stuff as MIME instead of > just plain text (as God intended)? Did I miss an entire discussion > about that or did someone just slip it in? There was no discussion, I think -- nobody protested much before I wrote the thing, and now it's too late. *bwa-ha-haaaaa* -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: forwarding as text rather than MIME? 1999-02-21 10:38 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1999-02-21 19:37 ` Chris Tessone 1999-02-21 19:40 ` Hrvoje Niksic 0 siblings, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread From: Chris Tessone @ 1999-02-21 19:37 UTC (permalink / raw) >>>>> "Lars" == Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes: Lars> There was no discussion, I think -- nobody protested much Lars> before I wrote the thing, and now it's too late. Lars> *bwa-ha-haaaaa* 'Twould be nice if this were customizable. I like to edit out headers, etc., in messages I send. -- Chris Tessone tessone@imsa.edu tessone@fnal.gov IMSA PH/Postmaster SNPC http://www.imsa.edu/~tessone/ print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<> )]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc` ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: forwarding as text rather than MIME? 1999-02-21 19:37 ` Chris Tessone @ 1999-02-21 19:40 ` Hrvoje Niksic 1999-02-22 12:54 ` Toni Drabik 1999-02-22 22:13 ` Aaron M. Ucko 0 siblings, 2 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Hrvoje Niksic @ 1999-02-21 19:40 UTC (permalink / raw) Chris Tessone <tessone@fnal.gov> writes: > >>>>> "Lars" == Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes: > > Lars> There was no discussion, I think -- nobody protested much > Lars> before I wrote the thing, and now it's too late. > Lars> *bwa-ha-haaaaa* > > 'Twould be nice if this were customizable. I like to edit out > headers, etc., in messages I send. You will be able to do that in the next release -- Lars gave in that much. What you won't be able to do is forward messages the old, pre-MIME, way. Which is kinda sad, but I guess we'll get used to it. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: forwarding as text rather than MIME? 1999-02-21 19:40 ` Hrvoje Niksic @ 1999-02-22 12:54 ` Toni Drabik 1999-02-22 17:43 ` Hrvoje Niksic 1999-02-22 22:13 ` Aaron M. Ucko 1 sibling, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread From: Toni Drabik @ 1999-02-22 12:54 UTC (permalink / raw) Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> writes: > > 'Twould be nice if this were customizable. I like to edit out > > headers, etc., in messages I send. > > You will be able to do that in the next release -- Lars gave in that > much. What you won't be able to do is forward messages the old, > pre-MIME, way. Which is kinda sad, but I guess we'll get used to it. I don't think so. Forwarding messages the new, MIME way is OK when we talk about mail messages. But, what's with post forwards? Currently, `gnus-summary-post-forward' forwards selected post as a MIME attachment. And, because attachments of any kind are considered rude in non-binary newsgroups, that's *very* bad thing. I'd like to be able to forward posts the old way. Of course, I always can press `F' and change the `Newsgroups: ' header, but that's not a solution... Not a good one, at least. -- Warning: This article may be fatal if swallowed. Toni Drabik <tdrabik@public.srce.hr> * <URL:http//public.srce.hr/~tdrabik/> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: forwarding as text rather than MIME? 1999-02-22 12:54 ` Toni Drabik @ 1999-02-22 17:43 ` Hrvoje Niksic 1999-02-22 17:58 ` Robert Bihlmeyer 1999-02-26 7:14 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 0 siblings, 2 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Hrvoje Niksic @ 1999-02-22 17:43 UTC (permalink / raw) Toni Drabik <tdrabik@public.srce.hr> writes: > Forwarding messages the new, MIME way is OK when we talk about mail > messages. But, what's with post forwards? [...] Indeed, you are right. I didn't think about that. Lars, could you please *please* allow a way to revert to the old forarding style? Don't make me have to hurt you when we meet in Japan. :-) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: forwarding as text rather than MIME? 1999-02-22 17:43 ` Hrvoje Niksic @ 1999-02-22 17:58 ` Robert Bihlmeyer 1999-02-22 18:26 ` Hrvoje Niksic 1999-02-26 7:14 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1 sibling, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread From: Robert Bihlmeyer @ 1999-02-22 17:58 UTC (permalink / raw) Hi, >>>>> On 22 Feb 1999 18:43:22 +0100 >>>>> Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> said: Hrvoje> Lars, could you please *please* allow a way to revert to the Hrvoje> old forarding style? What was so good about the old style? Hrvoje> Don't make me have to hurt you when we meet in Japan. :-) I hope you won't forget about us non-invented-ones and tape that fight. Robbe -- Robert Bihlmeyer reads: Deutsch, English, MIME, Latin-1, NO SPAM! <robbe@orcus.priv.at> <http://stud2.tuwien.ac.at/~e9426626/sig.html> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: forwarding as text rather than MIME? 1999-02-22 17:58 ` Robert Bihlmeyer @ 1999-02-22 18:26 ` Hrvoje Niksic 1999-02-23 18:32 ` Per Abrahamsen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread From: Hrvoje Niksic @ 1999-02-22 18:26 UTC (permalink / raw) Robert Bihlmeyer <e9426626@stud2.tuwien.ac.at> writes: > >>>>> On 22 Feb 1999 18:43:22 +0100 > >>>>> Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> said: > > Hrvoje> Lars, could you please *please* allow a way to revert to the > Hrvoje> old forarding style? > > What was so good about the old style? It didn't use MIME. MIME is frowned upon in most news hierarchies. Toni summed it up pretty well. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: forwarding as text rather than MIME? 1999-02-22 18:26 ` Hrvoje Niksic @ 1999-02-23 18:32 ` Per Abrahamsen 1999-02-24 15:52 ` Robert Bihlmeyer 1999-02-25 10:39 ` Russ Allbery 0 siblings, 2 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Per Abrahamsen @ 1999-02-23 18:32 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> writes: > It didn't use MIME. MIME is frowned upon in most news hierarchies. > Toni summed it up pretty well. *Unreadable* MIME is frowned upon. I don't think message/rfc822 is particularily unreadable. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: forwarding as text rather than MIME? 1999-02-23 18:32 ` Per Abrahamsen @ 1999-02-24 15:52 ` Robert Bihlmeyer 1999-02-24 16:17 ` Hrvoje Niksic [not found] ` <m3678rtieo.fsf@serpent.laymusic.> 1999-02-25 10:39 ` Russ Allbery 1 sibling, 2 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Robert Bihlmeyer @ 1999-02-24 15:52 UTC (permalink / raw) Hi, >>>>> On 23 Feb 1999 19:32:21 +0100 >>>>> Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> said: Per> Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> writes: >> It didn't use MIME. MIME is frowned upon in most news hierarchies. >> Toni summed it up pretty well. Per> *Unreadable* MIME is frowned upon. I don't think message/rfc822 Per> is particularily unreadable. Indeed. In the hierarchy I am most active in you get frowned/flamed at for HTML-multiparts or similar stuff. I never saw a complaint about message/rfc822 parts or multipart/signed articles. IMHO most neat would be a kind of compromise: make the MIME forward almost indifferent to a "normal" forward, by setting the part-delimiter to "----cut-here----" and similar things. Robbe -- Robert Bihlmeyer reads: Deutsch, English, MIME, Latin-1, NO SPAM! <robbe@orcus.priv.at> <http://stud2.tuwien.ac.at/~e9426626/sig.html> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: forwarding as text rather than MIME? 1999-02-24 15:52 ` Robert Bihlmeyer @ 1999-02-24 16:17 ` Hrvoje Niksic 1999-02-24 16:30 ` Chris Tessone [not found] ` <m3678rtieo.fsf@serpent.laymusic.> 1 sibling, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread From: Hrvoje Niksic @ 1999-02-24 16:17 UTC (permalink / raw) Robert Bihlmeyer <e9426626@stud2.tuwien.ac.at> writes: > IMHO most neat would be a kind of compromise: make the MIME forward > almost indifferent to a "normal" forward, by setting the > part-delimiter to "----cut-here----" and similar things. The delimiter is not the problem; current funny -=-=-=- stuff is not any uglier than ----cut-here----. The problem is that: 1) Up to now, you could use `S o p' to create and send purely textual messages, suitable for forwarding as well as for "silly" purposes such as *.best-of-usenet newsgroups. The MIME wonder doesn't allow you to do this. 2) Many newsreaders don't handle MIME at all. This, for one, includes all stable releases of Gnus. Then you get the raw message with not only the delimiters, but all the headers, plus the MIME headers. The old forwarding routine created much shorter and more readable messages. 3) Many newsreaders handle MIME but poorly. They insist on calling "metamail", which is a pain in the $@#$@# for many reasons (I can expand on this in a different message). 4) I'm not sure why it's such a good idea to use MIME encapsulation for news messages anyway. All of this doesn't matter to me very much; as I said in an earlier message, I will likely adapt to Gnus' final design choice. It's just that I also see Toni's point in questionning the wisdom of using MIME for news forwards. [Not to mention that even the current Gnus handles message/rfc822 very poorly. The only sane way of viewing such messages is through *gasp* nndoc.] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: forwarding as text rather than MIME? 1999-02-24 16:17 ` Hrvoje Niksic @ 1999-02-24 16:30 ` Chris Tessone 1999-02-24 16:43 ` Alexandre Oliva 1999-02-24 17:10 ` Robert Bihlmeyer 0 siblings, 2 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Chris Tessone @ 1999-02-24 16:30 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding I'm still not even clear on why forwarding mail messages (much less news posts) as MIME is even advantagous. If people *really* want to, why is a text-only option not being offered to those who don't want to forward as MIME? -- Chris Tessone tessone@imsa.edu tessone@fnal.gov IMSA PH/Postmaster SNPC http://www.imsa.edu/~tessone/ print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<> )]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc` ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: forwarding as text rather than MIME? 1999-02-24 16:30 ` Chris Tessone @ 1999-02-24 16:43 ` Alexandre Oliva 1999-02-24 16:52 ` Chris Tessone 1999-02-24 17:01 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-02-24 17:10 ` Robert Bihlmeyer 1 sibling, 2 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Alexandre Oliva @ 1999-02-24 16:43 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: Hrvoje Niksic, ding On Feb 24, 1999, Chris Tessone <tessone@fnal.gov> wrote: > I'm still not even clear on why forwarding mail messages (much less > news posts) as MIME is even advantagous. MIME messages *must* be forwarded as MIME, otherwise the MIME structure is lost forever, and the message becomes mostly useless. Only non-MIME messages could be forwarded with the old style without loss of contents. -- Alexandre Oliva http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~oliva aoliva@{acm.org,computer.org} oliva@{dcc.unicamp.br,gnu.org,egcs.cygnus.com,samba.org} Instituto de Computação, Universidade Estadual de Campinas, SP, Brasil ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: forwarding as text rather than MIME? 1999-02-24 16:43 ` Alexandre Oliva @ 1999-02-24 16:52 ` Chris Tessone 1999-02-24 17:01 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1 sibling, 0 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Chris Tessone @ 1999-02-24 16:52 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: Hrvoje Niksic, ding >>>>> "Alexandre" == Alexandre Oliva <oliva@dcc.unicamp.br> writes: Alexandre> MIME messages *must* be forwarded as MIME, otherwise Alexandre> the MIME structure is lost forever, and the message Alexandre> becomes mostly useless. Only non-MIME messages could Alexandre> be forwarded with the old style without loss of Alexandre> contents. Yes, I understand that. However, we're not discussing that. We're discussing forwarding plain-text messages using MIME as message/rfc822 instead of in the message body. -- Chris Tessone tessone@imsa.edu tessone@fnal.gov IMSA PH/Postmaster SNPC http://www.imsa.edu/~tessone/ print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<> )]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc` ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: forwarding as text rather than MIME? 1999-02-24 16:43 ` Alexandre Oliva 1999-02-24 16:52 ` Chris Tessone @ 1999-02-24 17:01 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1 sibling, 0 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-02-24 17:01 UTC (permalink / raw) Alexandre Oliva <oliva@dcc.unicamp.br> writes: > MIME messages *must* be forwarded as MIME, otherwise the MIME > structure is lost forever, and the message becomes mostly useless. > Only non-MIME messages could be forwarded with the old style without > loss of contents. Hm? As long as the MIME message doesn't contain the footer used for forwarded messages, I don't see the problem. Let's say the header is "@" on a line by itself and the footer also. Then everything between the two "@" lines is a MIME message, and saving that stuff to a file produces a MIME message. Where's the problem? kai -- I like _\bb_\bo_\bt_\bh kinds of music. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: forwarding as text rather than MIME? 1999-02-24 16:30 ` Chris Tessone 1999-02-24 16:43 ` Alexandre Oliva @ 1999-02-24 17:10 ` Robert Bihlmeyer 1 sibling, 0 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Robert Bihlmeyer @ 1999-02-24 17:10 UTC (permalink / raw) Hi, >>>>> On Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:30:39 -0600 >>>>> Chris Tessone <tessone@fnal.gov> said: Chris> I'm still not even clear on why forwarding mail messages (much Chris> less news posts) as MIME is even advantagous. Because in the ideal case where the receing MUA also handles MIME properly, the original (and only that) can be extracted automatically. For old style forwards you'd have to rely on heuristics. Granted that the MIME forwards are somewhat uglier when viewed in non-MIME-aware readers. Robbe -- Robert Bihlmeyer reads: Deutsch, English, MIME, Latin-1, NO SPAM! <robbe@orcus.priv.at> <http://stud2.tuwien.ac.at/~e9426626/sig.html> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <m3678rtieo.fsf@serpent.laymusic.>]
* Re: forwarding as text rather than MIME? [not found] ` <m3678rtieo.fsf@serpent.laymusic.> @ 1999-02-25 17:17 ` Kai.Grossjohann 0 siblings, 0 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-02-25 17:17 UTC (permalink / raw) lconrad@world.std.com (Laura E Conrad) writes: > [...] So I've stopped using it, and written my own "sign-mail" > command. (I'm sure there's something I could use in gnus > somewhere; it seemed easier to write it than to find it.) Set the TM variable for using signatures to nil, and set message-signature to the string to be used as a signature. Or set it to t, this will use the file message-signature-file, by default ~/.signature. kai -- I like _\bb_\bo_\bt_\bh kinds of music. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: forwarding as text rather than MIME? 1999-02-23 18:32 ` Per Abrahamsen 1999-02-24 15:52 ` Robert Bihlmeyer @ 1999-02-25 10:39 ` Russ Allbery 1 sibling, 0 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Russ Allbery @ 1999-02-25 10:39 UTC (permalink / raw) Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes: > Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> writes: >> It didn't use MIME. MIME is frowned upon in most news hierarchies. >> Toni summed it up pretty well. > *Unreadable* MIME is frowned upon. I don't think message/rfc822 is > particularily unreadable. Not that this is most hierarchies, but as for one particular fairly small hierarchy, <URL:http://www.usenet2.org/rules.txt> says: | No binaries: "Usenet is Text" | ----------------------------- | | This isn't 1985. There are plenty of ways to exchange images and | software without hiding them in text. | | No subhierarchy can allow posts of binaries. If necessary, a separate | "bin.*" hierarchy will be created for this purpose. | | HTML and other verbose rich text formats are binaries. The only allowed | MIME types are: none (in which case the message must be in ISO8859.1, | since there must be a default and that's one that'll cover most of the | likely traffic), or: | | MIME-Version: 1.0 | Content-Type: text/plain; charset=<any> OR multipart/signed | Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit OR 7bit | | If the Content-type is multipart/signed, then the parts may be: | | Content-Type: text/plain | Content-Type: application/pgp-signature At the time we wrote this, there was full justification for being this strict (and some similar policies are reflected in Cleannews filters and other similar places). Nowadays, I think it would probably be worth letting up on that to a large degree, but in the meantime I know there are lots of other moderated groups and smaller hierarchies that have set up similar policies. A way to revert to the old forwarding method is really necessary for those places for at least a little longer. Remember, MIME implementations have sucked so hard to date that everyone's still in shell shock from them and there are a lot of engrained reflex reactions. It's going to take a year or two of available non-sucking MIME implementations before this will change. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <URL:http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: forwarding as text rather than MIME? 1999-02-22 17:43 ` Hrvoje Niksic 1999-02-22 17:58 ` Robert Bihlmeyer @ 1999-02-26 7:14 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1999-02-26 11:48 ` Hrvoje Niksic 1 sibling, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1999-02-26 7:14 UTC (permalink / raw) Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> writes: > > Forwarding messages the new, MIME way is OK when we talk about mail > > messages. But, what's with post forwards? [...] > > Indeed, you are right. I didn't think about that. I didn't either. Hm. > Lars, could you please *please* allow a way to revert to the old > forarding style? Don't make me have to hurt you when we meet in > Japan. :-) :-) Ok, there are many things to consider here. I'll try to enumerate them, because I like enumerated lists, and the auto-indent thing is neat. 1) Forwarding things as message/rfc822 allows automatic extraction by MIME-compliant news/mail readers. 2) A typical complaint when forwarding using the old scheme was that not all headers were included, which meant that when people forwarded things to complain about spam, none of the important headers (Path/Received/etc) were included. 3) A typical complaint when forwarding message/rfc822 messages is that all the headers are included, which means that when people forward mail to each other, they get a bunch of useless headers (Path/Received/etc) they have to scroll through (if their news/maill reader don't handle that). 4) Some news hierarchies frown/autocancel some MIME types, but I haven't heard anyone autocancelling multiparts that only contain text/plain and message/rfc822. 5) MIME multiparts are generally somewhat noisier than traditional forward. But if we drop the "multipart warning" ("If you are reading this..."), then the quantity of noise is actually less. Fix in Pterodactyl Gnus v0.78. 6) message/rfc822 is generally more robust than traditional forwards. If the recipient has real MIME, then you can be pretty sure that the recipient will be able to view the forwarded news/mail as was originally intended. I don't think many mail/news readers are able to/will be able to do the same with traditional forwards. To sum these considerations up, I think that message/rfc822 is the right thing to do, and perhaps more importantly, it's The Thing Of The Future. And I think that perhaps by pushing this, we might make the future happen a bit sooner. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: forwarding as text rather than MIME? 1999-02-26 7:14 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1999-02-26 11:48 ` Hrvoje Niksic 1999-02-26 12:30 ` Per Abrahamsen 1999-02-26 14:45 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 0 siblings, 2 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Hrvoje Niksic @ 1999-02-26 11:48 UTC (permalink / raw) Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes: > 1) Forwarding things as message/rfc822 allows automatic extraction by > MIME-compliant news/mail readers. ...and many news readers are not MIME compliant, Gnus <= 5.8.x included. > 2) A typical complaint when forwarding using the old scheme was that > not all headers were included, which meant that when people > forwarded things to complain about spam, none of the important > headers (Path/Received/etc) were included. > > 3) A typical complaint when forwarding message/rfc822 messages is that > all the headers are included, which means that when people forward > mail to each other, they get a bunch of useless headers > (Path/Received/etc) they have to scroll through (if their > news/maill reader don't handle that). These two complaints were easily solved by `S o p' doing "nice" forwards and `C-u S o p' doing "complete" forwards. This worked nicely. > To sum these considerations up, I think that message/rfc822 is the > right thing to do, and perhaps more importantly, it's The Thing Of > The Future. And I think that perhaps by pushing this, we might make > the future happen a bit sooner. Uh-oh. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: forwarding as text rather than MIME? 1999-02-26 11:48 ` Hrvoje Niksic @ 1999-02-26 12:30 ` Per Abrahamsen 1999-02-26 14:45 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1 sibling, 0 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Per Abrahamsen @ 1999-02-26 12:30 UTC (permalink / raw) Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> writes: > Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes: > > > 1) Forwarding things as message/rfc822 allows automatic extraction by > > MIME-compliant news/mail readers. > > ...and many news readers are not MIME compliant, Gnus <= 5.8.x > included. I simply don't see the relevance of this. MIME encapsulation is just text. Old newsreaders (including Gnus 5.7) can deal with text. > These two complaints were easily solved by `S o p' doing "nice" > forwards and `C-u S o p' doing "complete" forwards. This worked > nicely. Yep, I think this would be a good idea. The nice forwards could still be MIME, with some headers filtered out. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: forwarding as text rather than MIME? 1999-02-26 11:48 ` Hrvoje Niksic 1999-02-26 12:30 ` Per Abrahamsen @ 1999-02-26 14:45 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1999-02-27 12:38 ` Russ Allbery 1 sibling, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1999-02-26 14:45 UTC (permalink / raw) Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> writes: > > 1) Forwarding things as message/rfc822 allows automatic extraction by > > MIME-compliant news/mail readers. > > ...and many news readers are not MIME compliant, Gnus <= 5.8.x > included. Yes, but a message/rfc822 multipart looks no uglier than a traditional forward. > These two complaints were easily solved by `S o p' doing "nice" > forwards and `C-u S o p' doing "complete" forwards. This worked > nicely. Yes. But people don't use the `C-u' command forms. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: forwarding as text rather than MIME? 1999-02-26 14:45 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1999-02-27 12:38 ` Russ Allbery 1999-02-27 13:15 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Russ Allbery @ 1999-02-27 12:38 UTC (permalink / raw) Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes: > Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> writes: >>> 1) Forwarding things as message/rfc822 allows automatic extraction by >>> MIME-compliant news/mail readers. >> ...and many news readers are not MIME compliant, Gnus <= 5.8.x >> included. > Yes, but a message/rfc822 multipart looks no uglier than a traditional > forward. Unless it's being read by someone who uses a newsreader that pipes everything that it thinks is MIME through metamail. Like, say, trn. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <URL:http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: forwarding as text rather than MIME? 1999-02-27 12:38 ` Russ Allbery @ 1999-02-27 13:15 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1999-02-27 14:13 ` Hrvoje Niksic 1999-02-28 19:21 ` Per Abrahamsen 2 siblings, 0 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1999-02-27 13:15 UTC (permalink / raw) Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes: > > Yes, but a message/rfc822 multipart looks no uglier than a traditional > > forward. > > Unless it's being read by someone who uses a newsreader that pipes > everything that it thinks is MIME through metamail. Like, say, trn. Oh, ick. Hm. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: forwarding as text rather than MIME? 1999-02-27 12:38 ` Russ Allbery 1999-02-27 13:15 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1999-02-27 14:13 ` Hrvoje Niksic 1999-02-28 19:21 ` Per Abrahamsen 2 siblings, 0 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Hrvoje Niksic @ 1999-02-27 14:13 UTC (permalink / raw) Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes: > > Yes, but a message/rfc822 multipart looks no uglier than a traditional > > forward. > > Unless it's being read by someone who uses a newsreader that pipes > everything that it thinks is MIME through metamail. Like, say, trn. Yup. That was one of my points in a previous message. Many newsreaders "implement" MIME by piping invoking metamail. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: forwarding as text rather than MIME? 1999-02-27 12:38 ` Russ Allbery 1999-02-27 13:15 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1999-02-27 14:13 ` Hrvoje Niksic @ 1999-02-28 19:21 ` Per Abrahamsen 2 siblings, 0 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Per Abrahamsen @ 1999-02-28 19:21 UTC (permalink / raw) Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes: > Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes: > > Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> writes: > > >>> 1) Forwarding things as message/rfc822 allows automatic extraction by > >>> MIME-compliant news/mail readers. > > >> ...and many news readers are not MIME compliant, Gnus <= 5.8.x > >> included. > > > Yes, but a message/rfc822 multipart looks no uglier than a traditional > > forward. > > Unless it's being read by someone who uses a newsreader that pipes > everything that it thinks is MIME through metamail. Like, say, trn. I just tried it, metamail stripped the mime boundaries and the "boring" headers. This should be ok in most cases, as long as the newsreader also allows you to see the "raw" message. I'd be very surprised if trn doesn't allow that. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: forwarding as text rather than MIME? 1999-02-21 19:40 ` Hrvoje Niksic 1999-02-22 12:54 ` Toni Drabik @ 1999-02-22 22:13 ` Aaron M. Ucko 1 sibling, 0 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Aaron M. Ucko @ 1999-02-22 22:13 UTC (permalink / raw) Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> writes: > You will be able to do that in the next release -- Lars gave in that > much. What you won't be able to do is forward messages the old, > pre-MIME, way. Which is kinda sad, but I guess we'll get used to it. Editing out the MML tags should work, no? -- Aaron M. Ucko, KB1CJC <amu@mit.edu> (finger amu@monk.mit.edu) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: forwarding as text rather than MIME? 1999-02-20 9:44 ` Hans de Graaff 1999-02-21 7:21 ` Chris Tessone @ 1999-04-03 7:28 ` Hans de Graaff 1 sibling, 0 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Hans de Graaff @ 1999-04-03 7:28 UTC (permalink / raw) Hans de Graaff <graaff@xs4all.nl> writes: > > > Ha, so that is why things are broken now. I forwarded some messages > > > yesterday to my work address, where I (need to) use Outlook > > > 98. Outlook could not read the messages, and when pressed offered me > > > to view the raw text of the message in Notepad. I'll dig up the exact > > > messages tomorrow at work. Well, whatever happened the last weeks I don't know, but all of the messages I've been forwarding over the last week (with pGnus 0.80) have worked fine in Outlook, so it looks like this has been fixed. Hans ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~1999-04-03 7:28 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 32+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 1999-02-15 18:20 forwarding as text rather than MIME? Bill White 1999-02-15 20:36 ` Hans de Graaff 1999-02-19 14:23 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1999-02-20 9:44 ` Hans de Graaff 1999-02-21 7:21 ` Chris Tessone 1999-02-21 10:38 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1999-02-21 19:37 ` Chris Tessone 1999-02-21 19:40 ` Hrvoje Niksic 1999-02-22 12:54 ` Toni Drabik 1999-02-22 17:43 ` Hrvoje Niksic 1999-02-22 17:58 ` Robert Bihlmeyer 1999-02-22 18:26 ` Hrvoje Niksic 1999-02-23 18:32 ` Per Abrahamsen 1999-02-24 15:52 ` Robert Bihlmeyer 1999-02-24 16:17 ` Hrvoje Niksic 1999-02-24 16:30 ` Chris Tessone 1999-02-24 16:43 ` Alexandre Oliva 1999-02-24 16:52 ` Chris Tessone 1999-02-24 17:01 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-02-24 17:10 ` Robert Bihlmeyer [not found] ` <m3678rtieo.fsf@serpent.laymusic.> 1999-02-25 17:17 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-02-25 10:39 ` Russ Allbery 1999-02-26 7:14 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1999-02-26 11:48 ` Hrvoje Niksic 1999-02-26 12:30 ` Per Abrahamsen 1999-02-26 14:45 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1999-02-27 12:38 ` Russ Allbery 1999-02-27 13:15 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1999-02-27 14:13 ` Hrvoje Niksic 1999-02-28 19:21 ` Per Abrahamsen 1999-02-22 22:13 ` Aaron M. Ucko 1999-04-03 7:28 ` Hans de Graaff
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