POP3 UIDL - pop3-leave-mail-on-server (was: [PATCH] GnuTLS support on Woe32)

POP3 UIDL - pop3-leave-mail-on-server (was: [PATCH] GnuTLS support on Woe32)

[Reiner Steib]

On Wed, Mar 09 2011, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen wrote:

> claudio.bley@gmail.com (Claudio Bley) writes:
[...]
>> It retrieves unique message IDs and is pretty vital in implementing
>> leave-messages-on-server support for POP3 (which I require).
>
> I didn't know that was actually possible.  Do many people use that?  

It has been requested quite often.  See the comments around
`pop3-leave-mail-on-server'...

,----[ gnus/lisp/pop3.el ]
| (defcustom pop3-leave-mail-on-server nil
|   "*Non-nil if the mail is to be left on the POP server after fetching.
| 
| If `pop3-leave-mail-on-server' is non-nil the mail is to be left
| on the POP server after fetching.  Note that POP servers maintain
| no state information between sessions, so what the client
| believes is there and what is actually there may not match up.
| If they do not, then you may get duplicate mails or the whole
| thing can fall apart and leave you with a corrupt mailbox."
|   ;; We can't use the UILD support from XEmacs mail-lib or cvs.m17n.org:
|   ;; http://thread.gmane.org/v9lld8fml4.fsf@marauder.physik.uni-ulm.de
|   ;; http://thread.gmane.org/b9yy8hzy9ej.fsf@jpl.org
|   ;; Any volunteer to re-implement this?
|   :version "22.1" ;; Oort Gnus
|   :type 'boolean
|   :group 'pop3)
`----

BTW, I don't know why you removed the corresponding warnings from
`pop3-movemail' with this commit:

,----[ git log - gnus/lisp/pop3.el ]
| commit 119a867afc587c9261730362a6478fc3801df1b5
| Author: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@quimbies.gnus.org>
| Date:   Thu Sep 9 16:06:38 2010 +0200
| 
|     Remove pop3-movemail and rename pop3-streaming-movemail to pop3-movemail.
`----

> And why not just use IMAP instead?

Some mail providers don't offer IMAP (for free).

> If it's a popular way to read email, I can certainly have a peek at
> implementing an nnpop backend for Gnus...

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo---  |  PGP key available  |  http://rsteib.home.pages.de/

Re: POP3 UIDL - pop3-leave-mail-on-server

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Reiner Steib <reinersteib+gmane@imap.cc> writes:

> |   ;; We can't use the UILD support from XEmacs mail-lib or cvs.m17n.org:
> |   ;; http://thread.gmane.org/v9lld8fml4.fsf@marauder.physik.uni-ulm.de
> |   ;; http://thread.gmane.org/b9yy8hzy9ej.fsf@jpl.org
> |   ;; Any volunteer to re-implement this?

Right.  So pop3 can't leave mail on the server because nobody has
bothered to reimplement the UIDL library?  How much work could that be? 

> BTW, I don't know why you removed the corresponding warnings from
> `pop3-movemail' with this commit:
>
> ,----[ git log - gnus/lisp/pop3.el ]
> | commit 119a867afc587c9261730362a6478fc3801df1b5

It didn't seem like a message that it's relevant to flash to the user
each and every time they use pop3.

>> And why not just use IMAP instead?
>
> Some mail providers don't offer IMAP (for free).
>
>> If it's a popular way to read email, I can certainly have a peek at
>> implementing an nnpop backend for Gnus...

Since nobody has spoken up and said "yes, I would use nnpop", I'm
guessing that there aren't many users (if any) that would still prefer
to read mail (and leave it there) from their pop servers instead of from
their IMAP servers.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: POP3 UIDL - pop3-leave-mail-on-server

[chad]

On Mar 15, 2011, at 12:08 PM, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen wrote:

> Right.  So pop3 can't leave mail on the server because nobody has
> bothered to reimplement the UIDL library?  How much work could that be? 
> [...]
> Since nobody has spoken up and said "yes, I would use nnpop", I'm
> guessing that there aren't many users (if any) that would still prefer
> to read mail (and leave it there) from their pop servers instead of from
> their IMAP servers.

FWIW, pop3 UIDL wasn't widely adopted (on either servers or clients) because (IMHO) it requires that the clients all be able to share a store of id's. That excludes a large subset of the desired users (for example, people who want to be able to also check mail from their mobile phone client).

It's still worth implementing, mind you - but these days most users will still prefer IMAP for a variety of reasons. (All IMHO, of course).

Hope that helps,
*Chad

Re: POP3 UIDL - pop3-leave-mail-on-server

[Eric S Fraga]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

[...]

> Since nobody has spoken up and said "yes, I would use nnpop", I'm
> guessing that there aren't many users (if any) that would still prefer
> to read mail (and leave it there) from their pop servers instead of from
> their IMAP servers.

Well, funnily enough, I have just run into a situation where nnpop would
be very useful (my ISP will only provide pop3 access if not using their
horrific webmail interface).  I don't use that account much, which is
why I haven't missed the lack of pop support in gnus, but they (the ISP)
are starting to send "important" messages to that address that I now
need to look at sooner rather than later...

... so, an nnpop backend would be great to see.  but not critical.

Thanks,
eric

-- 
: Eric S Fraga (GnuPG: 0xC89193D8FFFCF67D) in Emacs 24.0.50.1 + No Gnus v0.14

Re: POP3 UIDL - pop3-leave-mail-on-server

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> writes:

> Well, funnily enough, I have just run into a situation where nnpop would
> be very useful (my ISP will only provide pop3 access if not using their
> horrific webmail interface).  I don't use that account much, which is
> why I haven't missed the lack of pop support in gnus, but they (the ISP)
> are starting to send "important" messages to that address that I now
> need to look at sooner rather than later...

Gnus has pop3 support -- just not support for leaving the messages on
the pop3 server...

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: POP3 UIDL - pop3-leave-mail-on-server

[Eric S Fraga]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> writes:
>
>> Well, funnily enough, I have just run into a situation where nnpop would
>> be very useful (my ISP will only provide pop3 access if not using their
>> horrific webmail interface).  I don't use that account much, which is
>> why I haven't missed the lack of pop support in gnus, but they (the ISP)
>> are starting to send "important" messages to that address that I now
>> need to look at sooner rather than later...
>
> Gnus has pop3 support -- just not support for leaving the messages on
> the pop3 server...

Ah, that sounds fine.  I don't care if those messages stay on the server
or not.  

I guess you are referring to mail-sources?  If so, this is where I get
completely confused between select methods, mail sources, etc. and I
worry about screwing up my (so far) working configuration.

Given that I have a number of folders already (with multiple imap and
nttp servers), some of which were defined using
gnus-secondary-select-methods and others directly in the server buffer,
what is the easiest/cleanest way in which to add a new server which uses
pop?

Thanks,
eric

-- 
: Eric S Fraga (GnuPG: 0xC89193D8FFFCF67D) in Emacs 24.0.50.1 + No Gnus v0.14

Re: POP3 UIDL - pop3-leave-mail-on-server

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> writes:

> I guess you are referring to mail-sources?

Yes.

> If so, this is where I get completely confused between select methods,
> mail sources, etc. and I worry about screwing up my (so far) working
> configuration.
>
> Given that I have a number of folders already (with multiple imap and
> nttp servers), some of which were defined using
> gnus-secondary-select-methods and others directly in the server buffer,
> what is the easiest/cleanest way in which to add a new server which uses
> pop?

You typically set `mail-sources' to something that contains a pop3
source.  The manual explains.  One of you mail backends will then slurp
in the mail from that source.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: POP3 UIDL - pop3-leave-mail-on-server

[Eric S Fraga]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> writes:
>
>> I guess you are referring to mail-sources?
>
> Yes.
>
>> If so, this is where I get completely confused between select methods,
>> mail sources, etc. and I worry about screwing up my (so far) working
>> configuration.
>>
>> Given that I have a number of folders already (with multiple imap and
>> nttp servers), some of which were defined using
>> gnus-secondary-select-methods and others directly in the server buffer,
>> what is the easiest/cleanest way in which to add a new server which uses
>> pop?
>
> You typically set `mail-sources' to something that contains a pop3
> source.  The manual explains.  One of you mail backends will then slurp
> in the mail from that source.

Okay, this has worked but I did have to cross my fingers and hope for
the best.  The manual is just a wee bit terse in this regard.  If I
understand correctly, having played with it now, the mail from
mail-sources ends up in an nnml group; the actual group for any
individual email will depend on my splitting rules.

Initially I couldn't see the pop emails.  I had to subscribe to the nnml
groups but this wasn't obvious at first glance because I didn't have any
nnml groups subscribed to at all before.

It all sort of makes sense now... I think.

Well, it works!  That's the main thing.

Thanks,
eric

-- 
: Eric S Fraga (GnuPG: 0xC89193D8FFFCF67D) in Emacs 24.0.50.1 + No Gnus v0.14

Re: POP3 UIDL - pop3-leave-mail-on-server

[Katsumi Yamaoka]

Reiner Steib wrote:
> It has been requested quite often.

I started the test for a new UIDL support for pop3.el.

> See the comments around `pop3-leave-mail-on-server'...
[...]

Now that is:
,----
| Non-nil if the mail is to be left on the POP server after fetching.
| Mails once fetched will never be fetched again.  If this is neither nil
| nor a number mails are to be left on the POP server after fetching.
| If this is a number leave mails on the server for this many days since
| you last checked new mails.  The `:leave' keyword, specified in a mail
| source, overrides this value.
`----

This implementation is my original, not a copy of the XEmacs
version (the mail-source interface is borrowed from my hack made
in Semi-gnus), so it has no copyright porblem I believe.  I'll
commit this to Gnus (not Emacs because of the feature freeze)
within a month.

If you'd like to try it, get two files in:
ftp://ftp.jpl.org/pub/tmp/pop3+uidl/
(or http://www.jpl.org/ftp/pub/tmp/pop3+uidl/ )

A mail source example:

(pop :server "SERVER.NAME"
     :user "USER.NAME"
     :password "********"
     :leave 7)

>> And why not just use IMAP instead?
> Some mail providers don't offer IMAP (for free).

Re: POP3 UIDL - pop3-leave-mail-on-server

[Katsumi Yamaoka]

Katsumi Yamaoka wrote:
> I started the test for a new UIDL support for pop3.el.
[...]
> This implementation is my original, not a copy of the XEmacs
> version (the mail-source interface is borrowed from my hack made
> in Semi-gnus), so it has no copyright porblem I believe.  I'll
> commit this to Gnus (not Emacs because of the feature freeze)
> within a month.

Committed to Ma Gnus.  pop3.el users who don't want to leave mails
on the server(s) have to do nothing, but if you're interested in
the new feature, see:

,---- (info "(gnus)Mail Source Specifiers")
| [...]
|    The following mail source types are available:
| [...]
|     `:leave'
|           Non-`nil' if the mail is to be left on the POP server after
|           fetching.  Mails once fetched will never be fetched again by
|           the UIDL control.  Only the built-in `pop3-movemail' program
|           (the default) supports this keyword.
|
|           If this is neither `nil' nor a number, all mails will be left
|           on the server.  If this is a number, leave mails on the
|           server for this many days since you first checked new mails.
|           If this is `nil' (the default), mails will be deleted on the
|           server right after fetching.
|
|           The `pop3-uidl-file' variable specifies the file to which the
|           UIDL data are locally stored.  The default value is
|           `~/.pop3-uidl'.
| [...]
|      Leave mails on the server for 14 days:
|
|           (pop :server "my.pop.server"
|                :user "user-name" :password "secret"
|                :leave 14)
| [...]
`----