Please, we need a header back, soon!

Please, we need a header back, soon!

[Zlatko Calusic]

This list has recently lost all headers which we could use to split it
properly. It had "Sender: ding-owner@lists.math.uh.edu", but now it's
gone and mails from the list are mixed with my private emails. Is this
of temporary nature (some fix underway) or am I being pushed off the
list? ;)

And no, I refuse to split on the contents of To & Cc headers, that's
imprecise, I never liked doing that.

Thanks for any help.
-- 
Zlatko

Re: Please, we need a header back, soon!

[Nedko Arnaudov]

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Zlatko Calusic <zlatko.calusic@iskon.hr> writes:

> This list has recently lost all headers which we could use to split it
> properly. It had "Sender: ding-owner@lists.math.uh.edu", but now it's
> gone and mails from the list are mixed with my private emails. Is this
> of temporary nature (some fix underway) or am I being pushed off the
> list? ;)
>
> And no, I refuse to split on the contents of To & Cc headers, that's
> imprecise, I never liked doing that.

Yes, please, get header back!

-- 
Nedko Arnaudov <GnuPG KeyID: DE1716B0>

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Re: Please, we need a header back, soon!

[Reiner Steib]

On Wed, Nov 08 2006, Zlatko Calusic wrote:

> This list has recently lost all headers which we could use to split it
> properly. It had "Sender: ding-owner@lists.math.uh.edu", but now it's
> gone [...]

None of the members of this list o readers of gmane.emacs.gnus.general
can do anything about the mailing list setup so there's not much point
in complainig on the list.  Please write to the list owner.  The
address above looks promising.  Else, try to write to Jason L Tibbitts
III <tibbs [at] math.uh.edu>.

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo---  |  PGP key available  |  http://rsteib.home.pages.de/

Re: Please, we need a header back, soon!

[Katsumi Yamaoka]

>>>>> In <874pta3qhp.fsf@arnaudov.name> Nedko Arnaudov wrote:

> Yes, please, get header back!

I'm now using the following element in `nnmail-split-fancy'.

   ("received"
    "for <?ding@\\(?:gnus\\.org\\|lists\\.math\\.uh\\.edu\\)"
    "ding")

This seems to be going well so far, but of course it is much
better there is a unique header.

Re: Please, we need a header back, soon!

[Steinar Bang]

And of course, all being Gnus users, `G m nntp RET
gmane.emacs.gnus.general RET news.gmane.org RET' from the Group
buffer, is an alternative.

Re: Please, we need a header back, soon!

[Jason L Tibbitts III]

>>>>> "ZC" == Zlatko Calusic <zlatko.calusic@iskon.hr> writes:

ZC> This list has recently lost all headers which we could use to
ZC> split it properly.

All of that effort to complain, and yet no effort to complain to the
proper place?  You should always contact the list owner about such
things.  And, of course, depending on something nonstandard like
Sender: isn't really the best thing.  In the past I always used the
Envelope sender for that purpose, but there's still no guarantee that
won't change.  (Messages from this list should appear with variable
envelope senders, but you can still pattern match.)

Fortunately there's a standard header for these things.  I have added
a List-ID: header for you to filter on.  (Sorry if a couple of
messages went out with the header showing "lists.math.uh.edu" instead
of "gnus.org".)

 - J<

Re: Please, we need a header back, soon!

[Zlatko Calusic]

Jason L Tibbitts III <tibbs@math.uh.edu> writes:

>>>>>> "ZC" == Zlatko Calusic <zlatko.calusic@iskon.hr> writes:
>
> ZC> This list has recently lost all headers which we could use to
> ZC> split it properly.
>
> All of that effort to complain, and yet no effort to complain to the
> proper place?  You should always contact the list owner about such
> things.

True, I'm guilty as charged. ;)

Somehow, I always presume that list owner must be on the list, but of
course it's not always true. Not even common these days.

> And, of course, depending on something nonstandard like
> Sender: isn't really the best thing.  In the past I always used the
> Envelope sender for that purpose, but there's still no guarantee that
> won't change.  (Messages from this list should appear with variable
> envelope senders, but you can still pattern match.)
>
> Fortunately there's a standard header for these things.  I have added
> a List-ID: header for you to filter on.  (Sorry if a couple of
> messages went out with the header showing "lists.math.uh.edu" instead
> of "gnus.org".)
>

While I don't see that header yet (for example in your message), of
course it's everything I asked for. There's nothing special in Sender:
header. Actually, you can use whatever header you want, it's just my
opinion that one such header MUST exist. Otherwise it's hard and error
prone to split mailing lists. I don't like spliting emails on headers
that are not primarily for that purpose (To, From, Received,
Subject...). It's asking for trouble.

For example, my split rules are full of different headers for
different mailing lists, I don't care, all of them work well, it's
just that ding list lost the last such header without warning and
mails started mixing with private/business mail. Thankfully this list
is not high traffic, so it wasn't such a big problem, but when that
happens to high volume lists like linux-kernel and you're on a 2 day
vacation... you know what happens. ;)

Example headers from my nnmail-split-fancy:

x-beenthere (mailman lists)
x-mailing-list
sender

Thank you!
-- 
Zlatko

Re: Please, we need a header back, soon!

[Zlatko Calusic]

Zlatko Calusic <zlatko.calusic@iskon.hr> writes:

> While I don't see that header yet (for example in your message), of

Correction, another (same, actually) mail came through the list while
I was typing, and it has the much needed header, so everything is ok
now. Thank you again.

See, writing to the list actually worked. ;)

> Example headers from my nnmail-split-fancy:
>
> x-beenthere (mailman lists)
> x-mailing-list
> sender

...and found two more in the mean time...

mailing-list
list-id ;)

Regards,
-- 
Zlatko

Re: Please, we need a header back, soon!

[Jason L Tibbitts III]

>>>>> "ZC" == Zlatko Calusic <zlatko.calusic@iskon.hr> writes:

ZC> Somehow, I always presume that list owner must be on the list, but
ZC> of course it's not always true. Not even common these days.

I am on the list, but I don't necessarily read it every day.  I read
owner mail several times daily.

ZC> While I don't see that header yet (for example in your message),

Of course you won't see that header if you're reading the CC I sent
you, since the message didn't go through the list.

ZC> Actually, you can use whatever header you want, it's just my
ZC> opinion that one such header MUST exist.

Obviously the envelope sender has to exist and be somewhat stable;
otherwise the list would never receive bounces.  So you can always
filter on that, regardless of what headers may or may not be added by
the mailing list software.

 - J<

Re: Please, we need a header back, soon!

[Zlatko Calusic]

Jason L Tibbitts III <tibbs@math.uh.edu> writes:

>>>>>> "ZC" == Zlatko Calusic <zlatko.calusic@iskon.hr> writes:
>
> ZC> Somehow, I always presume that list owner must be on the list, but
> ZC> of course it's not always true. Not even common these days.
>
> I am on the list, but I don't necessarily read it every day.  I read
> owner mail several times daily.

Sure.

>
> ZC> While I don't see that header yet (for example in your message),
>
> Of course you won't see that header if you're reading the CC I sent
> you, since the message didn't go through the list.

Yes, that one has also been resolved.

>
> ZC> Actually, you can use whatever header you want, it's just my
> ZC> opinion that one such header MUST exist.
>
> Obviously the envelope sender has to exist and be somewhat stable;
> otherwise the list would never receive bounces.  So you can always
> filter on that, regardless of what headers may or may not be added by
> the mailing list software.
>

I don't know why, but I don't like that one either. I'm beggining to
see the pattern here. ;)

Let me then explain my opinions, mailing lists are some kind of
entities for me, entities that could be described with few characters
or words. For example one line "List-Header: I'm ding, I rule the
world!". Then, when you have such a line (and keep it with the list at
all times) you can do whatever you want to the list, you can easily
relocate it, move it to the other domain etc... it's the SAME list
although you've just changed envelope from, received, sender, to, cc
and who knows what other headers. But my splitting keeps working. ;)

Yes, it's too much philosophy for today. :)
-- 
Zlatko

Re: Please, we need a header back, soon!

[John A. Martin]

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>>>>> "Zlatko" == Zlatko Calusic
>>>>> "Re: Please, we need a header back, soon!"
>>>>>  Thu, 09 Nov 2006 17:10:51 +0100

    Zlatko> Yes, it's too much philosophy for today. :) -- Zlatko

No philosophy needed.  Instead please see
<ftp://ftp.rfc-editor.org/in-notes/rfc2919.txt> .

HTH

        jam


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Re: Please, we need a header back, soon!

[Didier Verna]

[I'm still Cc'ing the list because of potential interest for other readers]

Jason L Tibbitts III <tibbs@math.uh.edu> wrote:

> Fortunately there's a standard header for these things. I have added a
> List-ID: header for you to filter on. (Sorry if a couple of messages went
> out with the header showing "lists.math.uh.edu" instead of "gnus.org".)

        Hello,

thank you for the list-id header. I don't know anything about the standard
regarding this header, but does it specify the format of the header value ?

Currently, it is <ding.gnus.org>. If possible, I would have preferred
ding@gnus.org as it reflects the exact mailing-list address. But maybe I'm
asking for something against the standard specification...

-- 
Check out my new jazz CD on http://www.didierverna.com/ !

Didier Verna	EPITA / LRDE, 14-16 rue Voltaire   Tel.+33 (1) 44 08 01 85
             	94276 Le Kremlin-Bicêtre, France   Fax.+33 (1) 53 14 59 22

Re: Please, we need a header back, soon!

[Jason L Tibbitts III]

>>>>> "dvl" == Didier Verna <didier@lrde.epita.fr> writes:

dvl> Currently, it is <ding.gnus.org>.

As required by the standard: http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2919.txt

 - J<