* ignore bcc when followup @ 2017-02-22 13:50 Uwe Brauer 2017-02-22 19:10 ` SOLVED (was: ignore bcc when followup) Uwe Brauer 2017-02-22 19:54 ` ignore bcc when followup Adam Sjøgren 0 siblings, 2 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Uwe Brauer @ 2017-02-22 13:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ding Hi as longer as I think about it: At least optionally the BCC field should be ignored in the reply even when calling followup. I look into the code, looks difficult to modify. Any ideas? Regards Uwe Brauer ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* SOLVED (was: ignore bcc when followup) 2017-02-22 13:50 ignore bcc when followup Uwe Brauer @ 2017-02-22 19:10 ` Uwe Brauer 2017-02-23 7:46 ` SOLVED David Engster 2017-02-22 19:54 ` ignore bcc when followup Adam Sjøgren 1 sibling, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Uwe Brauer @ 2017-02-22 19:10 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ding >>> "Uwe" == Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> writes: > Hi > as longer as I think about it: At least optionally the BCC field should > be ignored in the reply even when calling followup. > I look into the code, looks difficult to modify. Any ideas? > Regards > Uwe Brauer The following code does this (add-hook 'gnus-message-setup-hook 'my-check-bcc) (defun my-check-bcc () "Try to avoid painful situations when using followup, and there is a Bcc field." (interactive) (cond ((and gnus-article-reply (message-with-reply-buffer (re-search-forward "^Bcc:\\|BCC:\\|bcc:" nil t))) (condition-case nil (progn (message-remove-header "cc") (message-goto-body) (message "There is a BCC field, we have deleted it!!!")) (error (progn (message "Followup??"))))))) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: SOLVED 2017-02-22 19:10 ` SOLVED (was: ignore bcc when followup) Uwe Brauer @ 2017-02-23 7:46 ` David Engster 2017-02-23 8:41 ` Bcc Adam Sjøgren 0 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: David Engster @ 2017-02-23 7:46 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ding Uwe Brauer writes: >>>> "Uwe" == Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> writes: > > > Hi > > as longer as I think about it: At least optionally the BCC field should > > be ignored in the reply even when calling followup. > > > I look into the code, looks difficult to modify. Any ideas? > > > Regards > > > Uwe Brauer > > > The following code does this Be warned that this will not always work. The handling of Bcc is a chaos and depends on the involved MUAs and MTAs. Some MTAs completely strip the Bcc field, some don't. Some MUAs send a separate mail for the people in the Bcc, so that at least they cannot do a reply all. The best solution is to simply tell everyone to not use Bcc, but to do separate mails instead, even if it is cumbersome. What would be a good feature for Gnus is to better highlight if you received this mail via To, CC or none of the above (like mailing lists or Bcc). What actually happens quite often at my day job is that I merge review requests that were only sent to me via CC... -David ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Bcc 2017-02-23 7:46 ` SOLVED David Engster @ 2017-02-23 8:41 ` Adam Sjøgren 2017-02-23 18:21 ` Bcc David Engster 0 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Adam Sjøgren @ 2017-02-23 8:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ding David writes: > Some MUAs send a separate mail for the people in the Bcc Which MUAs do not do this? Isn't that the definition of what Bcc does? Best regards, Adam -- "The success of open source code is perhaps the only Adam Sjøgren thing in the computer field that hasn't surprised me asjo@koldfront.dk during the past several decades." ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Bcc 2017-02-23 8:41 ` Bcc Adam Sjøgren @ 2017-02-23 18:21 ` David Engster 0 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: David Engster @ 2017-02-23 18:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Adam Sjøgren; +Cc: ding Adam Sjøgren writes: > David writes: > >> Some MUAs send a separate mail for the people in the Bcc > > Which MUAs do not do this? > > Isn't that the definition of what Bcc does? To my knowledge, there's no definition how BCC is actually implemented. RFC822 only states that the BCC header must not reach the primary/secondary recipients (and it explicitly does not say whether the BCC header should be seen by the tertiary recipients, as I've written to Uwe). I'm gone from system administration quite a while, so things might have changed, but I remember that there were long discussions who is actually responsible for *implementing* the BCC behavior: the MUA or the MTA. Many MTAs take it upon themselves to handle BCC: they strip the BCC header and then forwarded the mails to all recipients. I remember that Exim did *not* do that by default, which a quick search shows still surprises people: https://www.bentasker.co.uk/documentation/linux/301-avoiding-bcc-leaks-with-exim Now that might not be a proper MUA, but I'm pretty sure I've seen MUAs back in the day that delegated BCC handling to the MTA. They probably changed that when Exim became popular. -David ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: ignore bcc when followup 2017-02-22 13:50 ignore bcc when followup Uwe Brauer 2017-02-22 19:10 ` SOLVED (was: ignore bcc when followup) Uwe Brauer @ 2017-02-22 19:54 ` Adam Sjøgren 2017-02-22 21:34 ` Uwe Brauer 1 sibling, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Adam Sjøgren @ 2017-02-22 19:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ding Uwe writes: > as longer as I think about it: At least optionally the BCC field should > be ignored in the reply even when calling followup. Uhm, do you get a Bcc-header when you follow up to an email with a Bcc-header in it? I don't. (How do you even receive an email with a Bcc header in it? Usually they aren't sent - what email program sent it?) I just made an experiment: I sent myself an email, edited it after receipt, adding a Bcc (and Gcc, just for fun) header, and hit F. The headers in the follow up that did not include the Bcc (nor the Gcc) from the email. Original headers: From: Adam Sjøgren <asjoegren@gmail.com> Subject: Test To: Adam Sjøgren <asjo@koldfront.dk> Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2017 20:51:10 +0100 (1 minute, 24 seconds ago) Bcc: test@koldfront.dk Gcc: abba@koldfront.dk Attachment: [3. text/html]... Follow up headers: To: Adam Sjøgren <asjoegren@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Test From: asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) Gcc: nnml+archive:mail-2017 Organization: koldfront - analysis & revolution, Copenhagen, Denmark OpenPGP: id=476630590A231909B0A0961A49D0746121BDE416; url=https://asjo.koldfront.dk/gpg.asc X-Now-Playing: Den vänstra stranden, Då som nu för alltid (Kent) X-Hashcash: 1:21:170222:asjoegren@gmail.com::BVrk/jbmN3tCC90h:000000000000000000000000000000000000000000JJU3 --text follows this line-- How did you make Gnus include them? Best regards, Adam -- "People who post screen shots of text are jerks." Adam Sjøgren asjo@koldfront.dk ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: ignore bcc when followup 2017-02-22 19:54 ` ignore bcc when followup Adam Sjøgren @ 2017-02-22 21:34 ` Uwe Brauer 2017-02-22 22:03 ` Adam Sjøgren 2017-02-22 22:23 ` Adam Sjøgren 0 siblings, 2 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Uwe Brauer @ 2017-02-22 21:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ding >>> "Adam" == Adam Sjøgren <asjo@koldfront.dk> writes: > Uwe writes: >> as longer as I think about it: At least optionally the BCC field should >> be ignored in the reply even when calling followup. > Uhm, do you get a Bcc-header when you follow up to an email with a > Bcc-header in it? No. I am saying (see below my experiment.) I receive an email which goes like From: Joe To: John Bcc: Uwe Now I, Uwe hit, by mistake, followup, instead of reply, then they mail looks at it should From: Uwe To: Joe CC: John Which is bad, because John did not know that mail was sent to me. I should have used reply instead of followup, but since a lot of people complained that I hit reply instead of followup, I know hit followup automatically. So my small function will save me such embarrassing situations in the future. Did I explain myself? Below the experiments I did. All can I say I sent an email to myself, with a bcc to another email Here is what I received ,---- | | From: Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> | Subject: test bcc | To: Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> | Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2017 21:26:58 +0000 (1 minute, 5 seconds ago) | Bcc: oub.oub.oub@gmail.com | Reply-To: Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> | | adfadf `---- And the other way around ,---- | From: Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> | Subject: test 2 | To: Uwe Brauer <oub.oub.oub@gmail.com> | Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2017 21:27:30 +0000 (48 seconds ago) | Bcc: oub@mat.ucm.es | Reply-To: Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> | | This is true `---- > I don't. > (How do you even receive an email with a Bcc header in it? Usually they > aren't sent - what email program sent it?) The email in equation was sent to me from someone using apple mail > I just made an experiment: I sent myself an email, edited it after > receipt, adding a Bcc (and Gcc, just for fun) header, and hit F. > The headers in the follow up that did not include the Bcc (nor the Gcc) > from the email. > Original headers: > From: Adam Sjøgren <asjoegren@gmail.com> > Subject: Test > To: Adam Sjøgren <asjo@koldfront.dk> > Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2017 20:51:10 +0100 (1 minute, 24 seconds ago) > Bcc: test@koldfront.dk > Gcc: abba@koldfront.dk > Attachment: [3. text/html]... > Follow up headers: > To: Adam Sjøgren <asjoegren@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: Test > From: asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) > Gcc: nnml+archive:mail-2017 > Organization: koldfront - analysis & revolution, Copenhagen, Denmark > OpenPGP: id=476630590A231909B0A0961A49D0746121BDE416; url=https://asjo.koldfront.dk/gpg.asc > X-Now-Playing: Den vänstra stranden, Då som nu för alltid (Kent) > X-Hashcash: 1:21:170222:asjoegren@gmail.com::BVrk/jbmN3tCC90h:000000000000000000000000000000000000000000JJU3 > --text follows this line-- > How did you make Gnus include them? > Best regards, > Adam ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: ignore bcc when followup 2017-02-22 21:34 ` Uwe Brauer @ 2017-02-22 22:03 ` Adam Sjøgren 2017-02-22 22:23 ` Adam Sjøgren 1 sibling, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Adam Sjøgren @ 2017-02-22 22:03 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ding Uwe writes: > I receive an email which goes like > > From: Joe > To: John > Bcc: Uwe > > Now I, Uwe hit, by mistake, followup, instead of reply, then they mail > looks at it should > > From: Uwe > To: Joe > CC: John > > Which is bad, because John did not know that mail was sent to me. Ah, I misunderstood you. I thought you meant that the follow up contained a copy of the Bcc. It would make sense for Gnus to ask you, when doing a wide reply/follow up (i.e. including the original recipient) to an email you were Bcc'ed on, if that is really what you meant. I have an advice on gnus-summary-reply that asks me if I really wanted to reply, if I am in a newsgroup (where I usually want to follow up) - similar to that. > Did I explain myself? Yup. I actually did what you described just the other day. Best regards, Adam -- "Vi är inte riktigt kloka när man tänker efter." Adam Sjøgren asjo@koldfront.dk ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: ignore bcc when followup 2017-02-22 21:34 ` Uwe Brauer 2017-02-22 22:03 ` Adam Sjøgren @ 2017-02-22 22:23 ` Adam Sjøgren 2017-02-23 10:24 ` Uwe Brauer 1 sibling, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Adam Sjøgren @ 2017-02-22 22:23 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ding Uwe writes: > > (How do you even receive an email with a Bcc header in it? Usually they > > aren't sent - what email program sent it?) > > The email in equation was sent to me from someone using apple mail That is odd behaviour of Apple Mail, I think. Gnus, mutt and Gmail all remove the Bcc header from both the email sent to the original recipient AND from the blind carbon copy. I've never seen a Bcc-header on an incoming email. Guess I don't know anybody Bcc'ing me from Apple Mail :-) This does, however, make it harder to detect when to warn - if the incoming email is to a mailing list, your address might very well not be present in neither To nor Cc, but you don't want a warning. Best regards, Adam -- "A cat has nine lives, but a bullfrog croaks Adam Sjøgren every day." asjo@koldfront.dk ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: ignore bcc when followup 2017-02-22 22:23 ` Adam Sjøgren @ 2017-02-23 10:24 ` Uwe Brauer 2017-02-23 12:49 ` Adam Sjøgren 0 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Uwe Brauer @ 2017-02-23 10:24 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ding >>> "Adam" == Adam Sjøgren <asjo@koldfront.dk> writes: > Uwe writes: >> > (How do you even receive an email with a Bcc header in it? >> > Usually they aren't sent - what email program sent it?) >> >> The email in equation was sent to me from someone using apple mail > That is odd behaviour of Apple Mail, I think. > Gnus, mutt and Gmail all remove the Bcc header from both the email sent > to the original recipient AND from the blind carbon copy. No they don't at least gnus does not, in my previous email the example I gave were generated by gnus, that is gnus display the BCC field, in a message which was sent my gnus, I wonder why he does not do it for you. Uwe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: ignore bcc when followup 2017-02-23 10:24 ` Uwe Brauer @ 2017-02-23 12:49 ` Adam Sjøgren 2017-02-23 14:10 ` Uwe Brauer 0 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Adam Sjøgren @ 2017-02-23 12:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ding Uwe writes: >>>> "Adam" == Adam Sjøgren <asjo@koldfront.dk> writes: > > Gnus, mutt and Gmail all remove the Bcc header from both the email sent > > to the original recipient AND from the blind carbon copy. > No they don't at least gnus does not, in my previous email the example I > gave were generated by gnus, that is gnus display the BCC field, in a > message which was sent my gnus, I wonder why he does not do it for you. Gnus does not send the Bcc header neither to the recipient in To: nor to the recipient in Bcc:. Example: I am sending this email from Gnus: To: asjoegren@gmail.com Bcc: asjo@mcom.com Subject: Test of Bcc From: asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) Gcc: nnml+archive:mail-2017 Organization: koldfront - analysis & revolution, Copenhagen, Denmark OpenPGP: id=476630590A231909B0A0961A49D0746121BDE416; url=https://asjo.koldfront.dk/gpg.asc --text follows this line-- Test of Bcc -- "We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking Adam Sjøgren at the stars." asjo@koldfront.dk This is the conversation between Gnus and the mail server: 220 tullinup.koldfront.dk ESMTP Postfix (Debian/GNU). EHLO tullinup. 250-tullinup.koldfront.dk. 250-PIPELINING. 250-SIZE 209715200. 250-VRFY. 250-ETRN. 250-STARTTLS. 250-ENHANCEDSTATUSCODES. 250-8BITMIME. 250-DSN. 250 SMTPUTF8. MAIL FROM:<asjo@koldfront.dk> SIZE=1032. 250 2.1.0 Ok. RCPT TO:<asjo@mcom.com>. 250 2.1.5 Ok. RCPT TO:<asjoegren@gmail.com>. 250 2.1.5 Ok. DATA. 354 End data with <CR><LF>.<CR><LF>. From: asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam =?utf-8?Q?Sj=C3=B8gren?=) To: asjoegren@gmail.com. Subject: Test of Bcc. Organization: koldfront - analysis & revolution, Copenhagen, Denmark. User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.0.50 (gnu/linux). X-Hashcash: 1:21:170223:asjoegren@gmail.com::qtSNPl6AEL11AAqE:000000000000000000000000000000000000000000mh2T. OpenPGP: id=476630590A231909B0A0961A49D0746121BDE416; url=https://asjo.koldfront.dk/gpg.asc. X-Face: )qY&CseJ?.:=8F#^~GcSA?F=9eu'{KAFfL1C3/A&:nE?PW\i65"ba0NS)97,Q(^@xk}n4Ou. rPuR#V8I(J_@~H($[ym:`K_+]*kjvW>xH5jbgLBVFGXY:(#4P>zVBklLbdL&XxL\M)%T}3S/IS9lMJ. ^St'=VZBR<gm`!Dj`dIpp?+$"$l_'JKDN\w-jB;fo0Qy}Tbw. Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2017 13:44:15 +0100. Message-ID: <87y3wx13hc.fsf@tullinup.koldfront.dk>. MIME-Version: 1.0. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8. Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable. . Test of Bcc. . --=20. "We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking Adam Sj=C3=B8=. gren. at the stars." asjo@koldfront.dk. .. 250 2.0.0 Ok: queued as 8542210053471. As you can see, Gnus does NOT send the Bcc-header, it sends the email without the Bcc-header to the two recipients. It does, however, store the Bcc header in the *local copy* of the email, so *you* can see that you did in fact Bcc. Best regards, Adam -- "It's not denial. I'm just very selective about the Adam Sjøgren reality I accept." asjo@koldfront.dk ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: ignore bcc when followup 2017-02-23 12:49 ` Adam Sjøgren @ 2017-02-23 14:10 ` Uwe Brauer 2017-02-23 14:54 ` Adam Sjøgren 0 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Uwe Brauer @ 2017-02-23 14:10 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ding [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 692 bytes --] >>> "Adam" == Adam Sjøgren <asjo@koldfront.dk> writes: > Uwe writes: >>>>> "Adam" == Adam Sjøgren <asjo@koldfront.dk> writes: >> > Gnus, mutt and Gmail all remove the Bcc header from both the email sent >> > to the original recipient AND from the blind carbon copy. >> No they don't at least gnus does not, in my previous email the example I >> gave were generated by gnus, that is gnus display the BCC field, in a >> message which was sent my gnus, I wonder why he does not do it for you. > Gnus does not send the Bcc header neither to the recipient in To: nor to > the recipient in Bcc:. For me it does, see the screenshots hope they will not be blocked [-- Attachment #2: gnus-bcc.png --] [-- Type: image/png, Size: 84494 bytes --] [-- Attachment #3: seam-bcc1.png --] [-- Type: image/png, Size: 152126 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: ignore bcc when followup 2017-02-23 14:10 ` Uwe Brauer @ 2017-02-23 14:54 ` Adam Sjøgren 2017-02-23 15:33 ` Uwe Brauer 0 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Adam Sjøgren @ 2017-02-23 14:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ding Uwe writes: >>>> "Adam" == Adam Sjøgren <asjo@koldfront.dk> writes: > > Gnus does not send the Bcc header neither to the recipient in To: nor to > > the recipient in Bcc:. > > For me it does, see the screenshots hope they will not be blocked And for me, as you saw, it doesn't. Weird. What method do you use to send email in Gnus? Best regards, Adam -- "I am not tropical. I am not a damn toucan." Adam Sjøgren asjo@koldfront.dk ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: ignore bcc when followup 2017-02-23 14:54 ` Adam Sjøgren @ 2017-02-23 15:33 ` Uwe Brauer 0 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Uwe Brauer @ 2017-02-23 15:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ding >>> "Adam" == Adam Sjøgren <asjo@koldfront.dk> writes: > Uwe writes: >>>>> "Adam" == Adam Sjøgren <asjo@koldfront.dk> writes: >> > Gnus does not send the Bcc header neither to the recipient in To: nor to >> > the recipient in Bcc:. >> >> For me it does, see the screenshots hope they will not be blocked > And for me, as you saw, it doesn't. Weird. Indeed. Maybe it is the setting? Either yours or mine? > What method do you use to send email in Gnus? Smtpmail via tls to the server of my university, which is a gmail server (since my university could not afford its own server anymore) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2017-02-23 18:21 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 14+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2017-02-22 13:50 ignore bcc when followup Uwe Brauer 2017-02-22 19:10 ` SOLVED (was: ignore bcc when followup) Uwe Brauer 2017-02-23 7:46 ` SOLVED David Engster 2017-02-23 8:41 ` Bcc Adam Sjøgren 2017-02-23 18:21 ` Bcc David Engster 2017-02-22 19:54 ` ignore bcc when followup Adam Sjøgren 2017-02-22 21:34 ` Uwe Brauer 2017-02-22 22:03 ` Adam Sjøgren 2017-02-22 22:23 ` Adam Sjøgren 2017-02-23 10:24 ` Uwe Brauer 2017-02-23 12:49 ` Adam Sjøgren 2017-02-23 14:10 ` Uwe Brauer 2017-02-23 14:54 ` Adam Sjøgren 2017-02-23 15:33 ` Uwe Brauer
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