PGP/GPG and AOL

PGP/GPG and AOL

[Jack Twilley]

I helped an AOL user install WinPT on her machine, but when she sent
me an encrypted message, Gnus and gpg.el didn't DTRT.

Turns out that AOL sends multipart messages -- text and HTML -- and
there's no known way to force it to send only text.

Does anyone out here have an easy way to have Gnus and gpg.el check
the contents of a multipart message to see if they're encrypted, and
offer to decrypt them?

Jack.
-- 
Jack Twilley
jmt at twilley dot org
http colon slash slash www dot twilley dot org slash tilde jmt slash

Re: PGP/GPG and AOL

[Simon Josefsson]

Jack Twilley <jmt+usenet@twilley.org> writes:

> I helped an AOL user install WinPT on her machine, but when she sent
> me an encrypted message, Gnus and gpg.el didn't DTRT.

Could you give some more details on what Gnus/gpg.el did and did not do?

> Turns out that AOL sends multipart messages -- text and HTML -- and
> there's no known way to force it to send only text.

Shouldn't be a problem.

> Does anyone out here have an easy way to have Gnus and gpg.el check
> the contents of a multipart message to see if they're encrypted, and
> offer to decrypt them?

Gnus should do this by default, controlled by `mm-decrypt-option'.

Re: PGP/GPG and AOL

[Jack Twilley]

>>>>> "Simon" == Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes:

Jack> I helped an AOL user install WinPT on her machine, but when she
Jack> sent me an encrypted message, Gnus and gpg.el didn't DTRT.

Simon> Could you give some more details on what Gnus/gpg.el did and
Simon> did not do?

What Gnus and gpg.el did not do was to take the content of either part
of the multipart message and offer to decrypt it and display the
decrypted contents.

Jack> Turns out that AOL sends multipart messages -- text and HTML --
Jack> and there's no known way to force it to send only text.

Simon> Shouldn't be a problem.

You'd think.  I've got an open case with AOL because first and second
level helpdesk folks weren't able to tell me how to do that.

Jack> Does anyone out here have an easy way to have Gnus and gpg.el
Jack> check the contents of a multipart message to see if they're
Jack> encrypted, and offer to decrypt them?

Simon> Gnus should do this by default, controlled by
Simon> `mm-decrypt-option'.

Mine's set to nil, which means "ask user" according to the docs.  I
was not asked.

While the "right" solution is to fix AOL, the more probable solution
seems to be to fix Gnus or gpg.el -- does anyone know what's wrong or
how to fix it?  I'll help debug the problem if people can give me
generic pointers on just what to do, as I'm unfamiliar with this
particular subsystem.

Jack.
-- 
Jack Twilley
jmt at twilley dot org
http colon slash slash www dot twilley dot org slash tilde jmt slash

Re: PGP/GPG and AOL

[Simon Josefsson]

On Tue, 27 Nov 2001, Jack Twilley wrote:

> Jack> I helped an AOL user install WinPT on her machine, but when she
> Jack> sent me an encrypted message, Gnus and gpg.el didn't DTRT.
> 
> Simon> Could you give some more details on what Gnus/gpg.el did and
> Simon> did not do?
> 
> What Gnus and gpg.el did not do was to take the content of either part
> of the multipart message and offer to decrypt it and display the
> decrypted contents.

What happened instead?  What was displayed?  Did `K b' help?

> Jack> Turns out that AOL sends multipart messages -- text and HTML --
> Jack> and there's no known way to force it to send only text.
> 
> Simon> Shouldn't be a problem.
> 
> You'd think.  I've got an open case with AOL because first and second
> level helpdesk folks weren't able to tell me how to do that.

Oh, I meant it shouldn't be a problem for Gnus.  To get AOL to do 
something is probably more difficult, yes. :-)

> 
> Jack> Does anyone out here have an easy way to have Gnus and gpg.el
> Jack> check the contents of a multipart message to see if they're
> Jack> encrypted, and offer to decrypt them?
> 
> Simon> Gnus should do this by default, controlled by
> Simon> `mm-decrypt-option'.
> 
> Mine's set to nil, which means "ask user" according to the docs.  I
> was not asked.

Then Gnus didn't regard it as encrypted, which could be a bug.

The best would be if you could arrange to send a encrypted mail from the
AOL account to bugs@gnus.org and I could try to see what is wrong.

> While the "right" solution is to fix AOL, the more probable solution
> seems to be to fix Gnus or gpg.el -- does anyone know what's wrong or
> how to fix it?  I'll help debug the problem if people can give me
> generic pointers on just what to do, as I'm unfamiliar with this
> particular subsystem.

The generic hint is to use elp-instrument-package to find out which 
functions are called when you display the message, and then edebug some of 
likely functions to find out what is happening. (Functions named *crypt*, 
*secur* are good candidates, if you can't find any, just edebug everything 
in mm-*.el.)   It takes some time to get to know the code though.

Re: PGP/GPG and AOL

[Jack Twilley]

>>>>> "Simon" == Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes:

Jack> I helped an AOL user install WinPT on her machine, but when she
Jack> sent me an encrypted message, Gnus and gpg.el didn't DTRT.

Simon> Could you give some more details on what Gnus/gpg.el did and
Simon> did not do?

Jack> What Gnus and gpg.el did not do was to take the content of
Jack> either part of the multipart message and offer to decrypt it and
Jack> display the decrypted contents.

Simon> What happened instead?  What was displayed?  Did `K b' help?

Nothing happened.  What was displayed was the PGP-encrypted message.
When I used `K b', it offered me a choice between text/plain (what was
displayed) and text/html (which I can't view anyway until I get w3
working).

Jack> Turns out that AOL sends multipart messages -- text and HTML --
Jack> and there's no known way to force it to send only text.

Simon> Shouldn't be a problem.

Jack> You'd think.  I've got an open case with AOL because first and
Jack> second level helpdesk folks weren't able to tell me how to do
Jack> that.

Simon> Oh, I meant it shouldn't be a problem for Gnus.  To get AOL to
Simon> do something is probably more difficult, yes. :-)

I suspect the check to see if we need to do fun PGP stuff should be
moved to after choosing which part to display and displaying it.  But
then again, I don't know which place is the right place, as one could
conceivably encrypt a multipart message.  Both, perhaps?

Jack> Does anyone out here have an easy way to have Gnus and gpg.el
Jack> check the contents of a multipart message to see if they're
Jack> encrypted, and offer to decrypt them?

Simon> Gnus should do this by default, controlled by
Simon> `mm-decrypt-option'.

Jack> Mine's set to nil, which means "ask user" according to the docs.
Jack> I was not asked.

Simon> Then Gnus didn't regard it as encrypted, which could be a bug.

Sounds good to me.

Simon> The best would be if you could arrange to send a encrypted mail
Simon> from the AOL account to bugs@gnus.org and I could try to see
Simon> what is wrong.

Would it be acceptable for me to forward the received message?

Jack> While the "right" solution is to fix AOL, the more probable
Jack> solution seems to be to fix Gnus or gpg.el -- does anyone know
Jack> what's wrong or how to fix it?  I'll help debug the problem if
Jack> people can give me generic pointers on just what to do, as I'm
Jack> unfamiliar with this particular subsystem.

Simon> The generic hint is to use elp-instrument-package to find out
Simon> which functions are called when you display the message, and
Simon> then edebug some of likely functions to find out what is
Simon> happening. (Functions named *crypt*, *secur* are good
Simon> candidates, if you can't find any, just edebug everything in
Simon> mm-*.el.)  It takes some time to get to know the code though.

Okay, I'll poke about a bit.

On a completely unrelated topic:  I read ding gnus from quimby.  What
do I need to do to add whatever header is necessary to keep folks from
emailing responses to the ding list and to me?  I feel at a loss -- I
don't know if I need "Mail-Followup-To: never" or what, let alone
where to fix gnus to automatically stick it in with each ding
message.

Jack.
-- 
Jack Twilley
jmt at twilley dot org
http colon slash slash www dot twilley dot org slash tilde jmt slash

MFT on nntp (was: PGP/GPG and AOL)

[Paul Jarc]

Jack Twilley <jmt+usenet@twilley.org> wrote:
> I read ding gnus from quimby.  What do I need to do to add whatever
> header is necessary to keep folks from emailing responses to the
> ding list and to me?  I feel at a loss -- I don't know if I need
> "Mail-Followup-To: never" or what, let alone where to fix gnus to
> automatically stick it in with each ding message.

ITYM "Mail-Copies-To: never".  You could add that to
message-default-headers or your posting style.  That would probably be
the safest thing.  Getting MFT right in this case would be harder;
getting it *almost* right would be easy, but, well, not right.  Since
practically eveybody here uses Gnus, MCT ought to be enough.


paul

Re: MFT on nntp (was: PGP/GPG and AOL)

[Matt Christian]

prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes:

> Jack Twilley <jmt+usenet@twilley.org> wrote:
> > I read ding gnus from quimby.  What do I need to do to add whatever
> > header is necessary to keep folks from emailing responses to the
> > ding list and to me?  I feel at a loss -- I don't know if I need
> > "Mail-Followup-To: never" or what, let alone where to fix gnus to
> > automatically stick it in with each ding message.
> 
> ITYM "Mail-Copies-To: never".  You could add that to
> message-default-headers or your posting style.  That would probably be
> the safest thing.  Getting MFT right in this case would be harder;
> getting it *almost* right would be easy, but, well, not right.  Since
> practically eveybody here uses Gnus, MCT ought to be enough.

Minor nit: the MCT RFC 
(at <http://www.newsreaders.com/misc/mail-copies-to.html>) states the
following: 

...
The keywords "never" and "always" are included for legacy reasons, and
because they may be directly entered by the user, but the keywords
"nobody" and "poster" are preferred and SHOULD be used instead.
...

So you should try to use "Mail-Copies-To: nobody" instead.

- Matt

-- 
Matt Christian  mattc@visi.com  Learn to love and love to learn.
http://www.visi.com/~mattc/ 0111 ftp://ftp.visi.com/users/mattc/
5468652073656372657420697320131b331b2e1b311b341b311b351b39110d0a

Re: MFT on nntp (was: PGP/GPG and AOL)

[Kai Großjohann]

prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes:

> ITYM "Mail-Copies-To: never".  You could add that to
> message-default-headers or your posting style.  That would probably be
> the safest thing.  Getting MFT right in this case would be harder;
> getting it *almost* right would be easy, but, well, not right.  Since
> practically eveybody here uses Gnus, MCT ought to be enough.

Gnus does MFT itself, you just need to tell Gnus that sending mail to
ding@gnus.org reaches you.  See message-subscribed-addresses and
similar message-subscribed-* variables.

kai
-- 
Simplification good!  Oversimplification bad!  (Larry Wall)

Re: MFT on nntp (was: PGP/GPG and AOL)

[Paul Jarc]

Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) wrote:
> prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes:
>> Getting MFT right in this case would be harder; getting it *almost*
>> right would be easy, but, well, not right.  Since practically
>> eveybody here uses Gnus, MCT ought to be enough.
>
> Gnus does MFT itself, you just need to tell Gnus that sending mail to
> ding@gnus.org reaches you.  See message-subscribed-addresses and
> similar message-subscribed-* variables.

That won't help.  In this case, ding@gnus.org does not appear in the
message.

Jack Twilley <jmt+usenet@twilley.org> wrote:
> I read ding gnus from quimby.


paul

Re: MFT on nntp (was: PGP/GPG and AOL)

[Kai Großjohann]

prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes:

> Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) wrote:
>> prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes:
>>> Getting MFT right in this case would be harder; getting it *almost*
>>> right would be easy, but, well, not right.  Since practically
>>> eveybody here uses Gnus, MCT ought to be enough.
>>
>> Gnus does MFT itself, you just need to tell Gnus that sending mail to
>> ding@gnus.org reaches you.  See message-subscribed-addresses and
>> similar message-subscribed-* variables.
>
> That won't help.  In this case, ding@gnus.org does not appear in the
> message.
>
> Jack Twilley <jmt+usenet@twilley.org> wrote:
>> I read ding gnus from quimby.

Ah.  Sorry.  Hm.  What happens when one sets the to-address or
to-list group parameter?

kai
-- 
Simplification good!  Oversimplification bad!  (Larry Wall)

Re: MFT on nntp (was: PGP/GPG and AOL)

[Josh Huber]

Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes:

> Ah.  Sorry.  Hm.  What happens when one sets the to-address or
> to-list group parameter?

I assume that will force the use of that address when posting (a).

Does it make sense for a news->mail gateway to automatically add a
Mail-Followup-To header pointing at the mailing list?  I know this
header shouldn't be autogenerated, but that's refering to mailing list
software.  Usually (always?) when someone posts to a newsgroup they
expect to not get copes of replies.

perhaps a MFT: ding@gnus.org could be added when the Mail-Copies-To:
nobody/never header is present?

I don't know what the best solution for this is without adding some
group parameter for "newsgroup's news->mail gateway address".

ttyl,

-- 
Josh Huber

Re: MFT on nntp (was: PGP/GPG and AOL)

[Paul Jarc]

Josh Huber <huber@alum.wpi.edu> wrote:
> Does it make sense for a news->mail gateway to automatically add a
> Mail-Followup-To header pointing at the mailing list?

I'd rather see the news clients add it.  I don't think it's possible
for gateways to get it completely right.  Consider when a
non-subscriber is included in a thread's MFT; when another list is
included, etc.

> I know this header shouldn't be autogenerated, but that's refering
> to mailing list software.

Right.  Mail *clients* are encouraged to generate it.  So news clients
could do the same, for gatewayed groups.

> perhaps a MFT: ding@gnus.org could be added when the Mail-Copies-To:
> nobody/never header is present?

That would only help for people not using Gnus.  For this group, it
wouldn't have much effect.

> I don't know what the best solution for this is without adding some
> group parameter for "newsgroup's news->mail gateway address".

That might be the best thing.


paul

Re: PGP/GPG and AOL

[Simon Josefsson]

At Wed, 28 Nov 2001 12:08:36 -0800,
Jack Twilley wrote:
> 
> Simon> What happened instead?  What was displayed?  Did `K b' help?
> 
> Nothing happened.  What was displayed was the PGP-encrypted message.
> When I used `K b', it offered me a choice between text/plain (what was
> displayed) and text/html (which I can't view anyway until I get w3
> working).

Ok.  Perhaps the CRLF problem.  Do you use Windows?

> Simon> The best would be if you could arrange to send a encrypted mail
> Simon> from the AOL account to bugs@gnus.org and I could try to see
> Simon> what is wrong.
> 
> Would it be acceptable for me to forward the received message?

Sure.  Make sure the MIME etc isn't corrupted though.  Perhaps easiest
way is to send it as compressed attachment.

> On a completely unrelated topic:  I read ding gnus from quimby.  What
> do I need to do to add whatever header is necessary to keep folks from
> emailing responses to the ding list and to me?  I feel at a loss -- I
> don't know if I need "Mail-Followup-To: never" or what, let alone
> where to fix gnus to automatically stick it in with each ding
> message.

Customize gnus-posting-styles and add a "header" command to insert
"Mail-Copies-To: nobody" headers for the ding group.

Re: PGP/GPG and AOL

[Jack Twilley]

>>>>> "Simon" == Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes:

Simon> What happened instead?  What was displayed?  Did `K b' help?

Jack> Nothing happened.  What was displayed was the PGP-encrypted
Jack> message.  When I used `K b', it offered me a choice between
Jack> text/plain (what was displayed) and text/html (which I can't
Jack> view anyway until I get w3 working).

Simon> Ok.  Perhaps the CRLF problem.  Do you use Windows?

No.  FreeBSD.

Simon> The best would be if you could arrange to send a encrypted mail
Simon> from the AOL account to bugs@gnus.org and I could try to see
Simon> what is wrong.

Jack>  Would it be acceptable for me to forward the received message?

Simon> Sure.  Make sure the MIME etc isn't corrupted though.  Perhaps
Simon> easiest way is to send it as compressed attachment.

I sent it as a multipart digest, since that seems to keep the MIME
from being corrupted.

Jack> On a completely unrelated topic: I read ding gnus from quimby.
Jack> What do I need to do to add whatever header is necessary to keep
Jack> folks from emailing responses to the ding list and to me?  I
Jack> feel at a loss -- I don't know if I need "Mail-Followup-To:
Jack> never" or what, let alone where to fix gnus to automatically
Jack> stick it in with each ding message.

Simon> Customize gnus-posting-styles and add a "header" command to
Simon> insert "Mail-Copies-To: nobody" headers for the ding group.

I think I've gotten this to work.  I'll test it out some more.

Jack.
-- 
Jack Twilley
jmt at twilley dot org
http colon slash slash www dot twilley dot org slash tilde jmt slash

Re: PGP/GPG and AOL

[Kai Großjohann]

On a completely unrelated subject: do you like Wanderlust?  How does
it compare to Gnus?  Maybe Gnus could be improved by incorporating
features from Wanderlust?  (But maybe Wanderlust just has a completely
different paradigm.)  I've never gotten up the energy of actually
trying Wanderlust...

kai
-- 
Simplification good!  Oversimplification bad!  (Larry Wall)

Re: PGP/GPG and AOL

[Simon Josefsson]

On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Kai Großjohann wrote:

> On a completely unrelated subject: do you like Wanderlust?  How does
> it compare to Gnus?  Maybe Gnus could be improved by incorporating
> features from Wanderlust?  (But maybe Wanderlust just has a completely
> different paradigm.)  I've never gotten up the energy of actually
> trying Wanderlust...

It is not as customizable as Gnus, and lacks several features Gnus has,
but it is faster, requires less memory and has a more advanced backend
design (better disconnected support with IMAP, no need to fetch big
attachments with IMAP etc).  The group buffer (or "folder buffer" with WL
terminology) is quite limited right now though.  I didn't see anything
major that Gnus didn't already have, except the more advanced backend
system and a higher commit-rate to the CVS server.

They do have a FSF-owned PGP/GPG interface though, which we probably could 
borrow.

Oh, and there is a real manual in english. :-)

APEL, FLIM, SEMI and Wanderlust is shipped with RedHat 7.2 for Emacs 20.7.
(But there is a gazillion branches of the code, so you probably want APEL 
CVS HEAD, SLIM and WEMI or some other branch instead.)