Delayed messages, postponing Date: until sending by default?

Delayed messages, postponing Date: until sending by default?

[Adam Sjøgren]

Recently I read a blog post about delayed messages in Gnus:

 · https://tech.toryanderson.com/2020/02/21/emacs-gnus-delay-schedule-email-sending/

And I could help myself nerdsplaining the configuration I use for
delayed messages.

One of the things is:

  ; Remove date, so delayed messages (C-c C-j) don't get a date until
  ; sent, from <mailman.1180.1266014215.14305.info-gnus-english@gnu.org>:
  (setq message-draft-headers '(References From))

In reply to my comment, the author wrote: "I just ran into that date
issue, so your date removal line is great."

And it hit me: shouldn't this be the default, at least for delayed
messages?


  Best regards,

    Adam

-- 
 "She was like 'It's just a pencil', I was like 'It         Adam Sjøgren
  is my perfect attendance pencil!'"                   asjo@koldfront.dk

Re: Delayed messages, postponing Date: until sending by default?

[Eric Abrahamsen]

Adam Sjøgren <asjo@koldfront.dk> writes:

> Recently I read a blog post about delayed messages in Gnus:
>
>  · https://tech.toryanderson.com/2020/02/21/emacs-gnus-delay-schedule-email-sending/
>
> And I could help myself nerdsplaining the configuration I use for
> delayed messages.
>
> One of the things is:
>
>   ; Remove date, so delayed messages (C-c C-j) don't get a date until
>   ; sent, from <mailman.1180.1266014215.14305.info-gnus-english@gnu.org>:
>   (setq message-draft-headers '(References From))

Huh, I didn't realize that the Date header was set as time-of-delay, not
time-of-send. Confirming for myself by delaying this message by a day.
No harm done, as it is totally useless!

Eric

Re: Delayed messages, postponing Date: until sending by default?

[Eric Abrahamsen]

Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:

> Adam Sjøgren <asjo@koldfront.dk> writes:
>
>> Recently I read a blog post about delayed messages in Gnus:
>>
>>  · https://tech.toryanderson.com/2020/02/21/emacs-gnus-delay-schedule-email-sending/
>>
>> And I could help myself nerdsplaining the configuration I use for
>> delayed messages.
>>
>> One of the things is:
>>
>>   ; Remove date, so delayed messages (C-c C-j) don't get a date until
>>   ; sent, from <mailman.1180.1266014215.14305.info-gnus-english@gnu.org>:
>>   (setq message-draft-headers '(References From))
>
> Huh, I didn't realize that the Date header was set as time-of-delay, not
> time-of-send. Confirming for myself by delaying this message by a day.
> No harm done, as it is totally useless!

Huh, no kidding. I can't think of any reason we'd want to send delayed
messages out with the original Date header...

Re: Delayed messages, postponing Date: until sending by default?

[Amin Bandali]

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Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:

> Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:
>
>> Adam Sjøgren <asjo@koldfront.dk> writes:
>>
>>> Recently I read a blog post about delayed messages in Gnus:
>>>
>>>  · https://tech.toryanderson.com/2020/02/21/emacs-gnus-delay-schedule-email-sending/
>>>
>>> And I could help myself nerdsplaining the configuration I use for
>>> delayed messages.
>>>
>>> One of the things is:
>>>
>>>   ; Remove date, so delayed messages (C-c C-j) don't get a date until
>>>   ; sent, from <mailman.1180.1266014215.14305.info-gnus-english@gnu.org>:
>>>   (setq message-draft-headers '(References From))
>>
>> Huh, I didn't realize that the Date header was set as time-of-delay, not
>> time-of-send. Confirming for myself by delaying this message by a day.
>> No harm done, as it is totally useless!
>
> Huh, no kidding. I can't think of any reason we'd want to send delayed
> messages out with the original Date header...

+1; I think it would be a more sensible default to use the Date of send.
I think it can be especially confusing for the receiver seeing a message
dated, say, 1 day before, but only just appearing in their inbox.

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Re: Delayed messages, postponing Date: until sending by default?

[Eric Abrahamsen]

Amin Bandali <mab@gnu.org> writes:

> Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:
>
>> Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:
>>
>>> Adam Sjøgren <asjo@koldfront.dk> writes:
>>>
>>>> Recently I read a blog post about delayed messages in Gnus:
>>>>
>>>>  · https://tech.toryanderson.com/2020/02/21/emacs-gnus-delay-schedule-email-sending/
>>>>
>>>> And I could help myself nerdsplaining the configuration I use for
>>>> delayed messages.
>>>>
>>>> One of the things is:
>>>>
>>>>   ; Remove date, so delayed messages (C-c C-j) don't get a date until
>>>>   ; sent, from <mailman.1180.1266014215.14305.info-gnus-english@gnu.org>:
>>>>   (setq message-draft-headers '(References From))
>>>
>>> Huh, I didn't realize that the Date header was set as time-of-delay, not
>>> time-of-send. Confirming for myself by delaying this message by a day.
>>> No harm done, as it is totally useless!
>>
>> Huh, no kidding. I can't think of any reason we'd want to send delayed
>> messages out with the original Date header...
>
> +1; I think it would be a more sensible default to use the Date of send.
> I think it can be especially confusing for the receiver seeing a message
> dated, say, 1 day before, but only just appearing in their inbox.

And even with regular (non-delayed) drafts, why would we want to date it
from when we *started* writing the message, rather than when we sent it?

I've opened bug#40151 for this.

Re: Delayed messages, postponing Date: until sending by default?

[Eric Abrahamsen]

Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:

> Amin Bandali <mab@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:
>>
>>> Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:
>>>
>>>> Adam Sjøgren <asjo@koldfront.dk> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> Recently I read a blog post about delayed messages in Gnus:
>>>>>
>>>>>  · https://tech.toryanderson.com/2020/02/21/emacs-gnus-delay-schedule-email-sending/
>>>>>
>>>>> And I could help myself nerdsplaining the configuration I use for
>>>>> delayed messages.
>>>>>
>>>>> One of the things is:
>>>>>
>>>>>   ; Remove date, so delayed messages (C-c C-j) don't get a date until
>>>>>   ; sent, from <mailman.1180.1266014215.14305.info-gnus-english@gnu.org>:
>>>>>   (setq message-draft-headers '(References From))
>>>>
>>>> Huh, I didn't realize that the Date header was set as time-of-delay, not
>>>> time-of-send. Confirming for myself by delaying this message by a day.
>>>> No harm done, as it is totally useless!
>>>
>>> Huh, no kidding. I can't think of any reason we'd want to send delayed
>>> messages out with the original Date header...
>>
>> +1; I think it would be a more sensible default to use the Date of send.
>> I think it can be especially confusing for the receiver seeing a message
>> dated, say, 1 day before, but only just appearing in their inbox.
>
> And even with regular (non-delayed) drafts, why would we want to date it
> from when we *started* writing the message, rather than when we sent it?
>
> I've opened bug#40151 for this.

And it's in!

Re: Delayed messages, postponing Date: until sending by default?

[Amin Bandali]

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Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:

> Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:
>
[...]
>>
>> And even with regular (non-delayed) drafts, why would we want to date it
>> from when we *started* writing the message, rather than when we sent it?
>>
>> I've opened bug#40151 for this.
>
> And it's in!

Great, thanks!  Would it make sense to backport it to emacs-27?

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Re: Delayed messages, postponing Date: until sending by default?

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Amin Bandali <mab@gnu.org> writes:

> Great, thanks!  Would it make sense to backport it to emacs-27?

I don't think so -- it's not a regression from Emacs 26.  And there may
be unintended effects.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Re: Delayed messages, postponing Date: until sending by default?

[Helmut Waitzmann]

Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net>:
>Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:
>> Amin Bandali <mab@gnu.org> writes:
>>> Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:
>>>> Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:
>>>>> Adam Sjøgren <asjo@koldfront.dk> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Recently I read a blog post about delayed messages in Gnus: 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  · https://tech.toryanderson.com/2020/02/21/emacs-gnus-delay-schedule-email-sending/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And I could help myself nerdsplaining the configuration I use for 
>>>>>> delayed messages.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One of the things is: 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   ; Remove date, so delayed messages (C-c C-j) don't get a date until
>>>>>>   ; sent, from <mailman.1180.1266014215.14305.info-gnus-english@gnu.org>:
>>>>>>   (setq message-draft-headers '(References From))
>>>>>
>>>>> Huh, I didn't realize that the Date header was set as 
>>>>> time-of-delay, not time-of-send. Confirming for myself by 
>>>>> delaying this message by a day. No harm done, as it is 
>>>>> totally useless!
>>>>
>>>> Huh, no kidding. I can't think of any reason we'd want to 
>>>>send delayed messages out with the original Date header...
>>>
>>> +1; I think it would be a more sensible default to use the 
>>>Date of send. I think it can be especially confusing for the 
>>>receiver seeing a message dated, say, 1 day before, but only 
>>>just appearing in their inbox.
>>
>> And even with regular (non-delayed) drafts, why would we want 
>>to date it from when we *started* writing the message, rather 
>>than when we sent it?
>>
>> I've opened bug#40151 for this.
>
>And it's in!

Is it possible for the user to select the other behavior: send a 
message with the date when the message was finished writing?  If 
not, I'd beg not to change that. 

On the other hand:  If I want to send a message with the date of 
sending rather than writing, I just save it as a draft.  Then, 
before sending, I reedit the message to get the current date. 

Adhering to the general principle: provide mechanism not policy – 
I'd like to select the policy for myself. 

Re: Delayed messages, postponing Date: until sending by default?

[Eric Abrahamsen]

Helmut Waitzmann <nn.throttle@xoxy.net> writes:

> Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net>:
>>Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:
>>> Amin Bandali <mab@gnu.org> writes:
>>>> Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:
>>>>> Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:
>>>>>> Adam Sjøgren <asjo@koldfront.dk> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Recently I read a blog post about delayed messages in Gnus: 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  · https://tech.toryanderson.com/2020/02/21/emacs-gnus-delay-schedule-email-sending/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And I could help myself nerdsplaining the configuration I use
>>>>>>> for delayed messages.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> One of the things is: 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   ; Remove date, so delayed messages (C-c C-j) don't get a date until
>>>>>>>   ; sent, from <mailman.1180.1266014215.14305.info-gnus-english@gnu.org>:
>>>>>>>   (setq message-draft-headers '(References From))
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Huh, I didn't realize that the Date header was set as
>>>>>> time-of-delay, not time-of-send. Confirming for myself by 
>>>>>> delaying this message by a day. No harm done, as it is totally
>>>>>> useless!
>>>>>
>>>>> Huh, no kidding. I can't think of any reason we'd want to send
>>>>> delayed messages out with the original Date header...
>>>>
>>>> +1; I think it would be a more sensible default to use the Date of
>>>> send. I think it can be especially confusing for the receiver
>>>> seeing a message dated, say, 1 day before, but only just appearing
>>>> in their inbox.
>>>
>>> And even with regular (non-delayed) drafts, why would we want to
>>> date it from when we *started* writing the message, rather than
>>> when we sent it?
>>>
>>> I've opened bug#40151 for this.
>>
>>And it's in!
>
> Is it possible for the user to select the other behavior: send a
> message with the date when the message was finished writing?  If 
> not, I'd beg not to change that. 
>
> On the other hand:  If I want to send a message with the date of
> sending rather than writing, I just save it as a draft.  Then, 
> before sending, I reedit the message to get the current date. 
>
> Adhering to the general principle: provide mechanism not policy – I'd
> like to select the policy for myself. 

All that changed here is the default value of `message-draft-headers',
to match the behavior I think most users would expect if they weren't
aware they had any control over it. Personally, I had never even noticed
that Gnus was sending drafts dated from when I *started* writing the
message, not when I sent it.

Anyway, you can still choose the behavior you want, by adding or
removing the symbol `Date' in the value of `message-draft-headers', same
as before. Only the default has changed.

Eric

Re: Delayed messages, postponing Date: until sending by default?

[Robert Pluim]

>>>>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2020 21:41:28 -0700, Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> said:
    Eric> Anyway, you can still choose the behavior you want, by adding or
    Eric> removing the symbol `Date' in the value of `message-draft-headers', same
    Eric> as before.

Thatʼs not 100% obvious from the etc/NEWS entry, perhaps you could add
some 'to get back previous behaviour' text?

Robert

Re: Delayed messages, postponing Date: until sending by default?

[Eric Abrahamsen]

Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes:

>>>>>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2020 21:41:28 -0700, Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> said:
>     Eric> Anyway, you can still choose the behavior you want, by adding or
>     Eric> removing the symbol `Date' in the value of `message-draft-headers', same
>     Eric> as before.
>
> Thatʼs not 100% obvious from the etc/NEWS entry, perhaps you could add
> some 'to get back previous behaviour' text?

Can do, sure. How's this look?

---
*** Change to default value of 'message-draft-headers' option.
Remove the Date header from the default value, meaning that that header
will not be set until draft or delayed messages are actually sent. To
restore the original behavior of dating a message from when it is first
saved or delayed, add the symbol 'Date to this option.

Re: Delayed messages, postponing Date: until sending by default?

[Robert Pluim]

>>>>> On Mon, 23 Mar 2020 11:43:36 -0700, Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> said:

    Eric> Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes:
    >>>>>>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2020 21:41:28 -0700, Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> said:
    Eric> Anyway, you can still choose the behavior you want, by adding or
    Eric> removing the symbol `Date' in the value of `message-draft-headers', same
    Eric> as before.
    >> 
    >> Thatʼs not 100% obvious from the etc/NEWS entry, perhaps you could add
    >> some 'to get back previous behaviour' text?

    Eric> Can do, sure. How's this look?

    Eric> ---
    Eric> *** Change to default value of 'message-draft-headers' option.
    Eric> Remove the Date header from the default value, meaning that that header
    Eric> will not be set until draft or delayed messages are actually sent. To
    Eric> restore the original behavior of dating a message from when it is first
    Eric> saved or delayed, add the symbol 'Date to this option.

'The Date header has been removed from'? Iʼm nitpicking, admittedly.

Thanks

Robert

Re: Delayed messages, postponing Date: until sending by default?

[Eric Abrahamsen]

Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes:

>>>>>> On Mon, 23 Mar 2020 11:43:36 -0700, Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> said:
>
>     Eric> Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes:
>     >>>>>>> On Sun, 22 Mar 2020 21:41:28 -0700, Eric Abrahamsen
>     >> <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> said:
>     Eric> Anyway, you can still choose the behavior you want, by adding or
>     Eric> removing the symbol `Date' in the value of `message-draft-headers', same
>     Eric> as before.
>     >> 
>     >> Thatʼs not 100% obvious from the etc/NEWS entry, perhaps you could add
>     >> some 'to get back previous behaviour' text?
>
>     Eric> Can do, sure. How's this look?
>
>     Eric> ---
>     Eric> *** Change to default value of 'message-draft-headers' option.
>     Eric> Remove the Date header from the default value, meaning that that header
>     Eric> will not be set until draft or delayed messages are actually sent. To
>     Eric> restore the original behavior of dating a message from when it is first
>     Eric> saved or delayed, add the symbol 'Date to this option.
>
> 'The Date header has been removed from'? Iʼm nitpicking, admittedly.

Done! With further bikeshedding.

Re: Delayed messages, postponing Date: until sending by default?

[Helmut Waitzmann]

Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net>:

>All that changed here is the default value of 
>`message-draft-headers',

[…]

>Anyway, you can still choose the behavior you want, by adding or 
>removing the symbol `Date' in the value of 
>`message-draft-headers', same as before. Only the default has 
>changed.

Thank you very much.