Where are group parameters stored?

Where are group parameters stored?

[Dave Abrahams]

I can't figure out where Gnus is putting them.
[Also, is this documented?]

-- 
Dave Abrahams
BoostPro Computing
http://www.boostpro.com

Re: Where are group parameters stored?

[Tassilo Horn]

Dave Abrahams <dave@boostpro.com> writes:

Hi Dave,

> I can't figure out where Gnus is putting them.

Well, you can specify them in your ~/.gnus.el using `gnus-parameters',
and then they are exactly there. ;-)

If you specify them using `G c' or `G p' on a group, then I think they
go in ~/.newsrc.eld, but I might be wrong.

Bye,
Tassilo
-- 
Sent from my Emacs

Re: Where are group parameters stored?

[Dave Abrahams]

on Fri Jul 08 2011, Tassilo Horn <tassilo-AT-member.fsf.org> wrote:

> Dave Abrahams <dave@boostpro.com> writes:
>
> Hi Dave,
>
>> I can't figure out where Gnus is putting them.
>
> Well, you can specify them in your ~/.gnus.el using `gnus-parameters',
> and then they are exactly there. ;-)
>
> If you specify them using `G c' or `G p' on a group, then I think they
> go in ~/.newsrc.eld, but I might be wrong.

Okay, that seems problematic.  Shouldn't everything you specify with `G
c' or `G p' be stored as a regular customization?  IIUC, .newsrc.eld
changes very dynamically (e.g. storing article marks), whereas group
parameters are the sort of thing I'd probably want to check into a Git
repository somewhere.  Am I missing something?

-- 
Dave Abrahams
BoostPro Computing
http://www.boostpro.com

Re: Where are group parameters stored?

[Tassilo Horn]

Dave Abrahams <dave@boostpro.com> writes:

Hi Dave,

>> If you specify them using `G c' or `G p' on a group, then I think
>> they go in ~/.newsrc.eld, but I might be wrong.
>
> Okay, that seems problematic.

That's one reason why I put them in my ~/.gnus.el.  Another reason is
that then I can use some kind of "parameter inheritance", e.g.:

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
(setq gnus-parameters
      `((,(rx (or "emacs" "gnus"))
         (gnus-button-emacs-level 10))

	(,(rx "nnimap+")                             ;; general mail stuff
	 (gnus-use-scoring nil)
	 (gcc-self . t))
	(,(rx "nnimap+Uni:ml/")                      ;; specifics for uni mailinglists
	 (gcc-self . "nnimap+Uni:Sent"))
	(,(rx "nnimap+Fastmail:INBOX.mailinglists.") ;; specifics for other mailinglists
	 (gcc-self . "nnimap+Fastmail:INBOX.Sent Items")
	 (gnus-use-scoring t))))
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---


> Shouldn't everything you specify with `G c' or `G p' be stored as a
> regular customization?  IIUC, .newsrc.eld changes very dynamically
> (e.g. storing article marks), whereas group parameters are the sort of
> thing I'd probably want to check into a Git repository somewhere.  Am
> I missing something?

No, I agree.  Not that this changes anything. :-)

Bye,
Tassilo

Re: Where are group parameters stored?

[lee]

Tassilo Horn <tassilo@member.fsf.org> writes:

> that then I can use some kind of "parameter inheritance", e.g.:
>
> (setq gnus-parameters
>       `((,(rx (or "emacs" "gnus"))
>          (gnus-button-emacs-level 10))
>
> 	(,(rx "nnimap+")                             ;; general mail stuff
> 	 (gnus-use-scoring nil)
> 	 (gcc-self . t))
> 	(,(rx "nnimap+Uni:ml/")                      ;; specifics for uni mailinglists
> 	 (gcc-self . "nnimap+Uni:Sent"))
> 	(,(rx "nnimap+Fastmail:INBOX.mailinglists.") ;; specifics for other mailinglists
> 	 (gcc-self . "nnimap+Fastmail:INBOX.Sent Items")
> 	 (gnus-use-scoring t))))

What does the above do?

Re: Where are group parameters stored?

[Steinar Bang]

>>>>> Dave Abrahams <dave@boostpro.com>:

> I can't figure out where Gnus is putting them.

They end up in the monster that is the ~/.newsrc.eld.  Direct edit of
the .newrc.eld is not recommended (though I've done so...).

> [Also, is this documented?]

Not as far as I know.

Re: Where are group parameters stored?

[Steinar Bang]

>>>>> Dave Abrahams <dave@boostpro.com>:
> IIUC, .newsrc.eld changes very dynamically (e.g. storing article
> marks), whereas group parameters are the sort of thing I'd probably
> want to check into a Git repository somewhere.  Am I missing
> something?

Nope.  You're right on track.

The discussion for a .newsrc.eld split, for precisely the reasons you
state, have been discussed several times in this group.  Should be in
the archives.

Right now, what happens with .newsrc.eld, will probably be determined
what happens with "cloud gnus" or "gnus-sync", in the next development
cycle of gnus.

Re: Where are group parameters stored?

[Tassilo Horn]

lee <lee@yun.yagibdah.de> writes:

Hi Lee,

>> (setq gnus-parameters
>>       `((,(rx (or "emacs" "gnus"))                ;; 1)
>>          (gnus-button-emacs-level 10))
>>
>> 	(,(rx "nnimap+")                             ;; 2)
>> 	 (gnus-use-scoring nil)
>> 	 (gcc-self . t))
>> 	(,(rx "nnimap+Uni:ml/")                      ;; 3)
>> 	 (gcc-self . "nnimap+Uni:Sent"))
>> 	(,(rx "nnimap+Fastmail:INBOX.mailinglists.") ;; 4)
>> 	 (gcc-self . "nnimap+Fastmail:INBOX.Sent Items")
>> 	 (gnus-use-scoring t))))
>
> What does the above do?

1) In all groups containing emacs or gnus in their name the buttonize
   level is increased, so that strings in articles that match an emacs
   variable or function name are buttonized.  Clicking on them then
   shows the help buffer you'd also get with `C-h f the-function RET'.

2) In all groups containing "nnimap+" (i.e., all groups of any IMAP
   server) the scoring is turned of and when I start a mail in such a
   group, then my own message is put into this group as well.

3) In all groups containing "nnimap+Uni:ml/", which is the base below I
   have folders for different mailinglists on my university account, I
   set an explicit sent mail folder which overrides the gcc-self from
   2).

4) Like 3) for another account.  Again, I override the gcc-self
   "inherited" from 2) and also activate scoring for these mailinglists.

Inheritance here means that the individual parameters are applied in
sequence.  So if you order them from lax regexps to more specific
regexps (for example based on the folder structure like I do), you can
set parameters for a whole set of groups first and override them for
some exceptional groups that are matched by stricted regexps later in
the list.

Bye,
Tassilo
-- 
Sent from my Emacs

Re: Where are group parameters stored?

[lee]

Tassilo Horn <tassilo@member.fsf.org> writes:

> lee <lee@yun.yagibdah.de> writes:
>
> Hi Lee,
>
>>> (setq gnus-parameters
>>>       `((,(rx (or "emacs" "gnus"))                ;; 1)
>>>          (gnus-button-emacs-level 10))
>>>
>>> 	(,(rx "nnimap+")                             ;; 2)
>>> 	 (gnus-use-scoring nil)
>>> 	 (gcc-self . t))
>>> 	(,(rx "nnimap+Uni:ml/")                      ;; 3)
>>> 	 (gcc-self . "nnimap+Uni:Sent"))
>>> 	(,(rx "nnimap+Fastmail:INBOX.mailinglists.") ;; 4)
>>> 	 (gcc-self . "nnimap+Fastmail:INBOX.Sent Items")
>>> 	 (gnus-use-scoring t))))
>>
>> What does the above do?
>
> 1) In all groups containing emacs or gnus in their name the buttonize
>    level is increased, so that strings in articles that match an emacs
>    variable or function name are buttonized.  Clicking on them then
>    shows the help buffer you'd also get with `C-h f the-function RET'.
>
> 2) In all groups containing "nnimap+" (i.e., all groups of any IMAP
>    server) the scoring is turned of and when I start a mail in such a
>    group, then my own message is put into this group as well.
>
> 3) In all groups containing "nnimap+Uni:ml/", which is the base below I
>    have folders for different mailinglists on my university account, I
>    set an explicit sent mail folder which overrides the gcc-self from
>    2).
>
> 4) Like 3) for another account.  Again, I override the gcc-self
>    "inherited" from 2) and also activate scoring for these mailinglists.
>
> Inheritance here means that the individual parameters are applied in
> sequence.  So if you order them from lax regexps to more specific
> regexps (for example based on the folder structure like I do), you can
> set parameters for a whole set of groups first and override them for
> some exceptional groups that are matched by stricted regexps later in
> the list.

Thank you very much for the thorough explanation!

How do you make groups inherit parameters that have been set previously?
What I don't understand in particular is what the comma (`,') in an
entry does ... I can see that (rx "something") matches strings like
"something" and "something good".  So is it the comma that activates the
inheritance?

Inheritance can be very useful to me because without it, I have a lot of
repetitive entries in my list of gnus-parameters.

inheritatively specifying group parameters (was: Where are group parameters stored?)

[lee]

lee <lee@yun.yagibdah.de> writes:

> Tassilo Horn <tassilo@member.fsf.org> writes:
>
>> lee <lee@yun.yagibdah.de> writes:
>>
>> Hi Lee,
>>
>>>> (setq gnus-parameters
>>>>       `((,(rx (or "emacs" "gnus"))                ;; 1)
>>>>          (gnus-button-emacs-level 10))
>
> [...]
> Inheritance can be very useful to me because without it, I have a lot of
> repetitive entries in my list of gnus-parameters.
>

How comes that the following doesn't work:

(setq gnus-parameters
      '((,(rx (or "bogus" "mail"))
	 (gnus-show-threads nil)
	 (gnus-use-scoring nil)
	 (gnus-article-sort-functions '((not gnus-article-sort-by-date)))
	 (display . [not expire])
	 (gcc-self . "mail.sent")
	 (gnus-summary-line-format
	  ":%U%R%z%I(%5L) %(%[%-23,23f%]%) %11&user-date; '%s\n"))
	))

It gives me a backtrace when starting gnus:

,----
| Debugger entered--Lisp error: (wrong-type-argument stringp (\, (rx (or "bogus" "mail"))))
|   string-match((\, (rx (or "bogus" "mail"))) "nnmaildir+temp:copy")
|   gnus-group-fast-parameter("nnmaildir+temp:copy" read-only allow-list)
|   gnus-group-find-parameter("nnmaildir+temp:copy" read-only allow-list)
|   nnmaildir--param("nnmaildir+temp:copy" read-only)
|   byte-code([...])
|   nnmaildir--scan("copy" nil [0] (nnmaildir "temp" (directory "~/md-access")) "/home/lee/md-access/" directory-files)
|   nnmaildir-request-scan(find-new-groups "temp")
|   nnmaildir-request-list("temp")
|   nnmaildir-request-newgroups("Wed, 13 Jul 2011 22:27:18 +0200" "temp")
|   gnus-request-newgroups("Wed, 13 Jul 2011 22:27:18 +0200" (nnmaildir "temp" (directory "~/md-access")))
|   gnus-ask-server-for-new-groups()
|   gnus-find-new-newsgroups()
|   gnus-setup-news(nil nil nil)
|   byte-code([...])
|   gnus-1(nil nil nil)
|   gnus(nil)
|   call-interactively(gnus t nil)
|   execute-extended-command(nil)
|   call-interactively(execute-extended-command nil nil)
`----

Re: inheritatively specifying group parameters

[Peter Münster]

On Wed, Jul 13 2011, lee wrote:

>> Tassilo Horn <tassilo@member.fsf.org> writes:
>>
>>>>>       `((,(rx (or "emacs" "gnus"))                ;; 1)

> How comes that the following doesn't work:
>
>       '((,(rx (or "bogus" "mail"))

'() is not the same as `().
'(): everything is quoted, same as (quote ...)
`(): not all is quoted, everything inside ,() is expanded

(I'm a lisp-beginner, so my explanation might be wrong...)

-- 
           Peter

Re: inheritatively specifying group parameters

[Tassilo Horn]

pmlists@free.fr (Peter Münster) writes:

Hi Peter,

>>>>>>       `((,(rx (or "emacs" "gnus"))                ;; 1)
>
>> How comes that the following doesn't work:
>>
>>       '((,(rx (or "bogus" "mail"))
>
> '() is not the same as `().
> '(): everything is quoted, same as (quote ...)
> `(): not all is quoted, everything inside ,() is expanded
>
> (I'm a lisp-beginner, so my explanation might be wrong...)

You are totally correct.  In my code, I've used ` and the ,(rx "foo")
forms say that this form should be evaluated when expanding the macro,
resulting in a regular expression.

,----[ C-h v gnus-parameters RET ]
| gnus-parameters is a variable defined in `gnus.el'.
| Its value is shown below.
| 
| Documentation:
| Alist of group parameters.
| [...]
| 
| Value: (("\\(?:\\(?:emac\\|gnu\\)s\\)"
|   (gnus-button-emacs-level 10))
|  ("nnimap\\+"
|   (gnus-use-scoring nil)
|   (gcc-self . t))
|  ("nnimap\\+Uni:ml/"
|   (gcc-self . "nnimap+Uni:Sent"))
|  ("nnimap\\+Fastmail:INBOX\\.mailinglists\\."
|   (gcc-self . "nnimap+Fastmail:INBOX.Sent Items")
|   (gnus-use-scoring t)))
`----

See?  The rx forms are replaced by their results.

Bye,
Tassilo
-- 
Sent from my Emacs

Re: Where are group parameters stored?

[Tassilo Horn]

lee <lee@yun.yagibdah.de> writes:

Hi Lee,

> How do you make groups inherit parameters that have been set
> previously?  What I don't understand in particular is what the comma
> (`,') in an entry does ... I can see that (rx "something") matches
> strings like "something" and "something good".

Nono, see Peter's mail and my reply to him.

> So is it the comma that activates the inheritance?

No, the "inheritance" is only that a group name may be matched by more
than one entry regexp in gnus-parameters, and that's what those rx forms
evaluate to.

> Inheritance can be very useful to me because without it, I have a lot
> of repetitive entries in my list of gnus-parameters.

Exactly.

Bye,
Tassilo
-- 
Sent from my Emacs

Re: inheritatively specifying group parameters

[lee]

Hi Tassilo, hi Peter!


Tassilo Horn <tassilo@member.fsf.org> writes:

> pmlists@free.fr (Peter Münster) writes:
>
> Hi Peter,
>
>>>>>>>       `((,(rx (or "emacs" "gnus"))                ;; 1)
>>
>>> How comes that the following doesn't work:
>>>
>>>       '((,(rx (or "bogus" "mail"))
>>
>> '() is not the same as `().
>> '(): everything is quoted, same as (quote ...)
>> `(): not all is quoted, everything inside ,() is expanded
>>
>> (I'm a lisp-beginner, so my explanation might be wrong...)
>
> You are totally correct.  In my code, I've used ` and the ,(rx "foo")
> forms say that this form should be evaluated when expanding the macro,
> resulting in a regular expression.

Ah, I didn't know that, I've only just started to learn some lisp.  I
noticed the different apostrophes and only thought it must be due to
different character encoding.

>
> ,----[ C-h v gnus-parameters RET ]
> | gnus-parameters is a variable defined in `gnus.el'.
> | Its value is shown below.
> | 
> | Documentation:
> | Alist of group parameters.
> | [...]
> | 
> | Value: (("\\(?:\\(?:emac\\|gnu\\)s\\)"
> [...]
> `----
>
> See?  The rx forms are replaced by their results.

Yes, and now the error message I got becomes understandable :)  I'll try
it out again :)

Re: Where are group parameters stored?

[lee]

Tassilo Horn <tassilo@member.fsf.org> writes:

> lee <lee@yun.yagibdah.de> writes:
>
>> How do you make groups inherit parameters that have been set
>> previously?  What I don't understand in particular is what the comma
>> (`,') in an entry does ... I can see that (rx "something") matches
>> strings like "something" and "something good".
>
> Nono, see Peter's mail and my reply to him.
>
>> So is it the comma that activates the inheritance?
>
> No, the "inheritance" is only that a group name may be matched by more
> than one entry regexp in gnus-parameters, and that's what those rx forms
> evaluate to.

That's something that didn't become clear to me from reading the
documentation.  Some of my entries match many groups while others match
only one particular group which may also be matched by a more generic
entry.  I was wondering whether the order in which the entries appear in
the list matters or not and if there was any influence to a particular
group from all the matches or not.

Then there are little glitches to make things more difficult to figure
out, like (gcc-self . "some.group") being ignored when the group has a
posting style that sets headers.

Your example with the inheritance would be great to have in the
documentation.

Re: Where are group parameters stored?

[Dave Abrahams]

on Tue Jul 12 2011, Tassilo Horn <tassilo-AT-member.fsf.org> wrote:

> Dave Abrahams <dave@boostpro.com> writes:
>
> Hi Dave,
>
>>> If you specify them using `G c' or `G p' on a group, then I think
>>> they go in ~/.newsrc.eld, but I might be wrong.
>>
>> Okay, that seems problematic.
>
> That's one reason why I put them in my ~/.gnus.el.  Another reason is
> that then I can use some kind of "parameter inheritance", e.g.:
>
> (setq gnus-parameters
>       `((,(rx (or "emacs" "gnus"))
>          (gnus-button-emacs-level 10))
>
> 	(,(rx "nnimap+")                             ;; general mail stuff
> 	 (gnus-use-scoring nil)
> 	 (gcc-self . t))
> 	(,(rx "nnimap+Uni:ml/")                      ;; specifics for uni mailinglists
> 	 (gcc-self . "nnimap+Uni:Sent"))
> 	(,(rx "nnimap+Fastmail:INBOX.mailinglists.") ;; specifics for other mailinglists
> 	 (gcc-self . "nnimap+Fastmail:INBOX.Sent Items")
> 	 (gnus-use-scoring t))))

Nice!  (I don't think I knew about rx.  You learn something new every
day...)

Cheers,

-- 
Dave Abrahams
BoostPro Computing
http://www.boostpro.com

Re: Where are group parameters stored?

[Tassilo Horn]

lee <lee@yun.yagibdah.de> writes:

Hi!

>> No, the "inheritance" is only that a group name may be matched by
>> more than one entry regexp in gnus-parameters, and that's what those
>> rx forms evaluate to.
>
> That's something that didn't become clear to me from reading the
> documentation.  Some of my entries match many groups while others
> match only one particular group which may also be matched by a more
> generic entry.  I was wondering whether the order in which the entries
> appear in the list matters or not and if there was any influence to a
> particular group from all the matches or not.

Yes, the parameters are applied from first to last, so you can use later
entries to override former entries.

> Then there are little glitches to make things more difficult to figure
> out, like (gcc-self . "some.group") being ignored when the group has a
> posting style that sets headers.

You set the Gcc: header using posting styles?  Or is gcc-self not
applied whenever the posting styles set some other header?  The latter
would be a bug, IMHO.

Bye,
Tassilo
-- 
Sent from my Emacs

Re: Where are group parameters stored?

[lee]

Tassilo Horn <tassilo@member.fsf.org> writes:

> lee <lee@yun.yagibdah.de> writes:
>
>> generic entry.  I was wondering whether the order in which the entries
>> appear in the list matters or not and if there was any influence to a
>> particular group from all the matches or not.
>
> Yes, the parameters are applied from first to last, so you can use later
> entries to override former entries.

And using the `rx' macro makes it even easier to create regexps :)

>> Then there are little glitches to make things more difficult to figure
>> out, like (gcc-self . "some.group") being ignored when the group has a
>> posting style that sets headers.
>
> You set the Gcc: header using posting styles?  Or is gcc-self not
> applied whenever the posting styles set some other header?  The latter
> would be a bug, IMHO.

The latter, it seems.  Not that I played around with it much, I only
found that gcc-self was ignored in the particular posting style which is
the only one I have so far that sets headers other than Gcc:.  I can try
it out and eventually send a bug report.

On a side note, it seems that `gnus-message-archive-group' is ignored
when group parameters use gcc-self, but since I can't get archiving to
work yet without messing everything up, I don't really know ...

Re: Where are group parameters stored?

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Dave Abrahams <dave@boostpro.com> writes:

>  Shouldn't everything you specify with `G c' or `G p' be stored as a
> regular customization?

All per-group data is stored in the .newsrc.eld file.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/