* Making message/rfc822 boundaries visible @ 1999-10-10 21:57 Robert Bihlmeyer 1999-10-11 16:13 ` Jack Vinson 0 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Robert Bihlmeyer @ 1999-10-10 21:57 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 323 bytes --] Hi, I finally decided to stop whining, and provide some code. The following, when put into your .gnus file, will render brackets around message/rfc822 parts, so you can see where an inlined message begins and ends. Nesting works out nice, too. Tested under XEmacs 21.1, but IIRC markers are also provided by FSF Emacsen. [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/x-emacs-lisp, Size: 386 bytes --] (setf (cadr (assoc "message/rfc822" mm-inline-media-tests)) 'mm-inline-message-bracketed) (defun mm-inline-message-bracketed (handle) (insert ",---\n") (let ((end (point-marker))) (set-marker-insertion-type end t) (mm-inline-message handle) (while (< (point) end) (insert "| ") (beginning-of-line 2)) (move-marker end nil) (insert "`---\n"))) [-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 237 bytes --] Adapting this to other types which have nonobviouse boundaries is easy. Robbe -- Robert Bihlmeyer reads: Deutsch, English, MIME, Latin-1, NO SPAM! <robbe@orcus.priv.at> <http://stud2.tuwien.ac.at/~e9426626/sig.html> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Making message/rfc822 boundaries visible 1999-10-10 21:57 Making message/rfc822 boundaries visible Robert Bihlmeyer @ 1999-10-11 16:13 ` Jack Vinson 1999-10-10 19:40 ` François Pinard 1999-10-12 10:50 ` Robert Bihlmeyer 0 siblings, 2 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Jack Vinson @ 1999-10-11 16:13 UTC (permalink / raw) >>>>> "Robbe" == Robert Bihlmeyer <robbe@orcus.priv.at> writes: Robbe> I finally decided to stop whining, and provide some code. The Robbe> following, when put into your .gnus file, will render brackets around Robbe> message/rfc822 parts, so you can see where an inlined message begins Robbe> and ends. Nesting works out nice, too. Tested under XEmacs 21.1, but Robbe> IIRC markers are also provided by FSF Emacsen. What is wrong with setting gnus-inhibit-mime-unbuttonizing to 't? This gives me buttons before each part of a mime message. Ellipses (...) after a button indicates that it has not been "expanded," either because it is not inlinable or because my setup keeps it from inlining automatically. -- Jack Vinson Bart: I will not charge admission to the bathroom. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Making message/rfc822 boundaries visible 1999-10-11 16:13 ` Jack Vinson @ 1999-10-10 19:40 ` François Pinard 1999-10-11 21:29 ` Kai Großjohann 1999-10-11 22:11 ` Jack Vinson 1999-10-12 10:50 ` Robert Bihlmeyer 1 sibling, 2 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: François Pinard @ 1999-10-10 19:40 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Jack Vinson <vinson@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> writes: > What is wrong with setting gnus-inhibit-mime-unbuttonizing to 't? This > gives me buttons before each part of a mime message. I did not try, but from what I guess this variable does, it might make too many buttons and disrupt the legibility of a presentation which was meant to be unified, and make Gnus an uncomfortable reader. For an excrutiating example, you might try `C-h h' in Emacs, and mail the generated output buffer to yourself. Having nearly 50 spurious buttons in the display of the message you will get breaks the overall intent of the original mailing. MIME was meant, by design, for a unified presentation. MIME acquired a bad reputation after many people implemented it with their own opinion about what MIME should have been, rather than grasping what it really is. Such distance is doomed to generate uncomfortable readers. Adding buttons all over is just not in the spirit of MIME. Buttons are some kind of last resort, when MIME rendering just cannot be completed as it was meant to be. -- François Pinard http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Making message/rfc822 boundaries visible 1999-10-10 19:40 ` François Pinard @ 1999-10-11 21:29 ` Kai Großjohann 1999-10-11 22:11 ` Jack Vinson 1 sibling, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Kai Großjohann @ 1999-10-11 21:29 UTC (permalink / raw) François Pinard <pinard@iro.umontreal.ca> writes: > Buttons are some kind of last resort, when MIME rendering just > cannot be completed as it was meant to be. I think buttons (or icons) are an appropriate visualization for attachments. kai -- Life is hard and then you die. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Making message/rfc822 boundaries visible 1999-10-10 19:40 ` François Pinard 1999-10-11 21:29 ` Kai Großjohann @ 1999-10-11 22:11 ` Jack Vinson 1999-10-12 9:53 ` Toby Speight ` (2 more replies) 1 sibling, 3 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Jack Vinson @ 1999-10-11 22:11 UTC (permalink / raw) >>>>> "FP" == François Pinard <pinard@iro.umontreal.ca> writes: For an FP> excrutiating example, you might try `C-h h' in Emacs, and mail the FP> generated output buffer to yourself. Wow. HELLO has 56 parts. Gnus asks if you really want to send it. Then Gnus dies when you try to send it (pgnus 0.97) because it "Can't encode a part with several charsets." This also happens if you try to attach the file as any kind of text. Attaching as binary works because it gets encoded. Jack Any interest in the backtrace? Here she comes: Signaling: (error "Can't encode a part with several charsets.") signal(error ("Can't encode a part with several charsets.")) error("Can't encode a part with several charsets.") mml-insert-mime-headers((part (type . "text/plain") (contents . "\x7c000, ")) "text/plain" (nil devanagari) quoted-printable) mml-generate-mime-1((part (type . "text/plain") (contents . "\x7c000, "))) mml-generate-mime-1((multipart (type . "mixed") (part (type . "text/plain") (contents . "TEXT FROM HELLO FILE")))) mml-generate-mime() message-encode-message-body() message-send-mail(nil) message-send-via-mail(nil) message-send(nil) message-send-and-exit(nil) call-interactively(message-send-and-exit) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Making message/rfc822 boundaries visible 1999-10-11 22:11 ` Jack Vinson @ 1999-10-12 9:53 ` Toby Speight 1999-11-06 21:48 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1999-10-12 16:36 ` Florian Weimer 1999-11-06 21:47 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 2 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Toby Speight @ 1999-10-12 9:53 UTC (permalink / raw) Jack> Jack Vinson <URL:mailto:vinson@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> 0> In article <wkpuylr1iw.fsf@chevax.ecs.umass.edu>, Jack wrote: Jack> Wow. HELLO has 56 parts. Gnus asks if you really want to send Jack> it. Then Gnus dies when you try to send it (pgnus 0.97) because Jack> it "Can't encode a part with several charsets." I get this too (47 parts, fails encoding Thai, rather than Devanagari as yours does). I'm suprised it doesn't offer to encode it in UTF-8 - is my installation of unicode.el broken, or is there something else I need to do? (I prefer Unicode encodings over most other ones, except for (single) parts of IS-8859; is there a way to tell Emacs this? Ideally, I'd like to use whichever of UTF-8 and UTF-16 gives the shortest output.) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Making message/rfc822 boundaries visible 1999-10-12 9:53 ` Toby Speight @ 1999-11-06 21:48 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 0 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1999-11-06 21:48 UTC (permalink / raw) Toby Speight <Toby.Speight@streapadair.freeserve.co.uk> writes: > I get this too (47 parts, fails encoding Thai, rather than Devanagari > as yours does). I'm suprised it doesn't offer to encode it in UTF-8 - > is my installation of unicode.el broken, or is there something else I > need to do? Gnus just encodes the Mule charsets. If you make utf-8 the preferred encoding of all the charsets, then Gnus will encode it as utf-8. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Making message/rfc822 boundaries visible 1999-10-11 22:11 ` Jack Vinson 1999-10-12 9:53 ` Toby Speight @ 1999-10-12 16:36 ` Florian Weimer 1999-10-11 18:58 ` François Pinard 1999-11-06 21:47 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 2 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Florian Weimer @ 1999-10-12 16:36 UTC (permalink / raw) Jack Vinson <vinson@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> writes: > Wow. HELLO has 56 parts. Gnus asks if you really want to send it. Then > Gnus dies when you try to send it (pgnus 0.97) because it "Can't encode a > part with several charsets." That's the right thing to do, until there's UTF-8 support in Gnus. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Making message/rfc822 boundaries visible 1999-10-12 16:36 ` Florian Weimer @ 1999-10-11 18:58 ` François Pinard 1999-10-13 5:56 ` Florian Weimer 0 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: François Pinard @ 1999-10-11 18:58 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Florian Weimer <fw@deneb.cygnus.argh.org> writes: > Jack Vinson <vinson@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> writes: > > Wow. HELLO has 56 parts. Gnus asks if you really want to send it. Then > > Gnus dies when you try to send it (pgnus 0.97) because it "Can't encode a > > part with several charsets." > That's the right thing to do, until there's UTF-8 support in Gnus. Gnus is meant to create as many parts as necessary, on the fly. But sadly, I too get "Can't encode a part with several charsets." with the HELLO file. I'm still using 0.95, but I think it used to work in some earlier version. When I send simpler multi-charsets files, Gnus 0.95 usually does the proper thing. So there are some failing conditions in HELLO, yet the poor little me would need time investigate them (I do not understand Mule programming). It is true that in many cases, UTF-8 support would allow for a single MIME part for everything, indeed. In other cases, UTF-8 would not convey distinctions that Asian do want to make, or might not be convenient in some environments. We should not start thinking that UTF-8 solves everything. Too many of us have that strange belief, it is more hope than knowledge! :-) -- François Pinard http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Making message/rfc822 boundaries visible 1999-10-11 18:58 ` François Pinard @ 1999-10-13 5:56 ` Florian Weimer 1999-10-13 9:46 ` Toby Speight 1999-10-13 14:37 ` François Pinard 0 siblings, 2 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Florian Weimer @ 1999-10-13 5:56 UTC (permalink / raw) François Pinard <pinard@iro.umontreal.ca> writes: > Gnus is meant to create as many parts as necessary, on the fly. But > sadly, I too get "Can't encode a part with several charsets." with > the HELLO file. The composed characters in Hindi and Lao cause the problems. I thought several charsets in one line would be required to encode this file (which isn't true, but can be handled using UTF-8). > It is true that in many cases, UTF-8 support would allow for a single > MIME part for everything, indeed. In other cases, UTF-8 would not convey > distinctions that Asian do want to make, The main problem with Unicode was that in the official manual, only Chinese glyphs were printed, which extremly annoyed some Japanese people (who, on the other hand, are used to write short Chinese citations in Japanese text using the Japanese glyphs ;). ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Making message/rfc822 boundaries visible 1999-10-13 5:56 ` Florian Weimer @ 1999-10-13 9:46 ` Toby Speight 1999-10-13 14:37 ` François Pinard 1 sibling, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Toby Speight @ 1999-10-13 9:46 UTC (permalink / raw) Florian> Florian Weimer <URL:mailto:fw@deneb.cygnus.argh.org> 0> In article <87yad7ls79.fsf@deneb.cygnus.argh.org>, Florian wrote: Florian> François Pinard <pinard@iro.umontreal.ca> writes: >> It is true that in many cases, UTF-8 support would allow for a >> single MIME part for everything, indeed. In other cases, UTF-8 >> would not convey distinctions that Asian do want to make, Florian> The main problem with Unicode was that in the official manual, Florian> only Chinese glyphs were printed, which extremly annoyed some Florian> Japanese people (who, on the other hand, are used to write Florian> short Chinese citations in Japanese text using the Japanese Florian> glyphs ;). Shouldn't the Content-Language header be used to select the appropriate glyphset? (A longer quotation of course being in a separate part with it's own MIME headers) I'm not sure whether the Plane-14 language-tagging characters are a help or a hindrance here. They ought not to be used when there's an external means of indicating language (MIME headers), but they would help in the generic code-conversion that Emacs does all day. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Making message/rfc822 boundaries visible 1999-10-13 5:56 ` Florian Weimer 1999-10-13 9:46 ` Toby Speight @ 1999-10-13 14:37 ` François Pinard 1 sibling, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: François Pinard @ 1999-10-13 14:37 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Florian Weimer <fw@deneb.cygnus.argh.org> écrit: > The main problem with Unicode was that in the official manual, only > Chinese glyphs were printed, which extremly annoyed some Japanese people > (who, on the other hand, are used to write short Chinese citations in > Japanese text using the Japanese glyphs ;). I'm surely not in a good position to argue in the place of Asian people, nor give too much interpretation to their position. On the other hand, if they tell me they are not satisfied with Unicode, it would be very pretentious from me (or from almost any Westerner, in fact) if I started arguing with them. They know a great deal better than I do what the matter is, and so, I'm willing to respect them. Unicode does not have much technical limitations, nowadays, to handle more than 16 bits per character. Yet, this was not the original plan, and it required some doing to get there. So, Asian reluctance to Unicode, which might have started technical, became to be more political over time, and solving the technical aspects do not fully repair the politics. Let's face it, Unicode lost its technical virginity for good since it was first laid out (sic). People still being much attracted by its "purity" might not be fully willing to implement all of it, and the simpler parts of Unicode are just not enough to fit all of the bill. This yields all sort of contractual lies: "See all that it will do for you!" to convince other to embark, followed by some more intimate "I'll do that part which interest me most, and postpone even thinking about the rest" that soon becomes a strong incentive to say "You are wrong in what you want", or even more astonishingly, one step further, "Forget it, this is not Unicode". Because of my `recode' little tool, it happens that I speak with many people about charsets. On the way, I clearly saw that may proponents of UTF-8 are fanatical enough, that I would myself be very frightening if I were Asian. Asian and me have this in common (:-), that we put our culture long before technical considerations. I'm far from knowing the story, but I guess that if Unicode listened better, things would be different today. Asian probably understood they will be better served by themselves, anyway. P.S. - Unicode is not a problem for the little me. French is well supported, out of the box. UTF-8 is very elegant, technically, I like it a lot. -- François Pinard http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Making message/rfc822 boundaries visible 1999-10-11 22:11 ` Jack Vinson 1999-10-12 9:53 ` Toby Speight 1999-10-12 16:36 ` Florian Weimer @ 1999-11-06 21:47 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 2 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1999-11-06 21:47 UTC (permalink / raw) Jack Vinson <vinson@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> writes: > Wow. HELLO has 56 parts. Gnus asks if you really want to send it. Then > Gnus dies when you try to send it (pgnus 0.97) because it "Can't encode a > part with several charsets." The problem is with a couple of the charsets that are kinda, er, weird. If you remove the, uhm, three offending greetings, then the rest should go through ok. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Making message/rfc822 boundaries visible 1999-10-11 16:13 ` Jack Vinson 1999-10-10 19:40 ` François Pinard @ 1999-10-12 10:50 ` Robert Bihlmeyer 1 sibling, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Robert Bihlmeyer @ 1999-10-12 10:50 UTC (permalink / raw) Hi, >>>>> On 11 Oct 1999 11:13:34 -0500 >>>>> Jack Vinson <vinson@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> said: Jack> What is wrong with setting gnus-inhibit-mime-unbuttonizing to Jack> 't? This gives me buttons before each part of a mime message. I don't want buttons all over the place. Francois has convinced me that they are normally not necessary. I don't need a button to see where an inlined image start, I can see it by myself. I can also usually infer where inlined C/elisp/patches start and end, if I want to know this at all. Inlined message/rfc822 parts are of a different kind. The beginning is visible in some configurations, the end too, in some cases. But I want some indications where the boundaries are, that work everytime. Seeing the structure of a double-bounce that has been forwarded to you is not easy without some help. Buttons are one possibility, my code is another. Robbe -- Robert Bihlmeyer reads: Deutsch, English, MIME, Latin-1, NO SPAM! <robbe@orcus.priv.at> <http://stud2.tuwien.ac.at/~e9426626/sig.html> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~1999-11-06 21:48 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 14+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 1999-10-10 21:57 Making message/rfc822 boundaries visible Robert Bihlmeyer 1999-10-11 16:13 ` Jack Vinson 1999-10-10 19:40 ` François Pinard 1999-10-11 21:29 ` Kai Großjohann 1999-10-11 22:11 ` Jack Vinson 1999-10-12 9:53 ` Toby Speight 1999-11-06 21:48 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1999-10-12 16:36 ` Florian Weimer 1999-10-11 18:58 ` François Pinard 1999-10-13 5:56 ` Florian Weimer 1999-10-13 9:46 ` Toby Speight 1999-10-13 14:37 ` François Pinard 1999-11-06 21:47 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1999-10-12 10:50 ` Robert Bihlmeyer
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