* Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines @ 1997-02-03 15:24 Kai Grossjohann 1997-02-03 16:36 ` Rich Pieri ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 48+ messages in thread From: Kai Grossjohann @ 1997-02-03 15:24 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: Michael.Huehne Hi all, Michael uses movemail to read mail from a POP3 server. If a mail doesn't end with an empty line, the following mail isn't split correctly. Example: ,----- | From foo@frob.org | From: Foo <foo@frob.org> | Subject: The Gnats and Gnus society | | bla bla bla bla | From pimpel@pampel.de | From: Pimpel <pimpel@pampel.de> | Subject: Pimpelnde Pampeln pampeln Pimpel | | bla bla bla bla `----- Note that there is no empty line between the first "bla bla" and the second mail. These two mails are not split correctly, they're saved in a single file in the nnml folder. Has anyone seen this, too? kai -- My heart is down, my head is turning around; I had to leave a little girl in Kingston town. -- Harry Belafonte ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 48+ messages in thread
* Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines 1997-02-03 15:24 Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines Kai Grossjohann @ 1997-02-03 16:36 ` Rich Pieri 1997-02-03 20:01 ` visigoth 1997-02-04 12:05 ` Kai Grossjohann 1997-02-04 10:14 ` dave edmondson 1997-02-05 10:47 ` Kai Grossjohann 2 siblings, 2 replies; 48+ messages in thread From: Rich Pieri @ 1997-02-03 16:36 UTC (permalink / raw) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >>>>> "KG" == Kai Grossjohann >>>>> <grossjohann@charly.informatik.uni-dortmund.de> writes: KG> Note that there is no empty line between the first "bla bla" and the KG> second mail. Then the mail server is messing up, because there *must* be one. The Unix mail separator is "\nFrom ...". The newline must be there to distinguish one message from the next. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3a Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBMvYUKZ6VRH7BJMxHAQFJWgP/fF52k59stPRb7m6vzQT5c2Nd8i7eHsWw Vp3TSucjVWDhX5uHJB6p3puyfAxPLEE24Vh1xGT+zPxOkaolc0AxdjuXaxSUaFP0 teiTl12MdWn+wX3fF4FIG8vaaba84sU7spG6P3Mc0ITcOBxcL2whExu7iOEpekqm E51ZXBmecbc= =H+VD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri <rich.pieri@prescienttech.com> | Warning: pregnant women, the Prescient Technologies, Inc. | elderly, and children under 10 A Stone & Webster Company | should avoid prolonged exposure to I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC | Happy Fun Ball. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 48+ messages in thread
* Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines 1997-02-03 16:36 ` Rich Pieri @ 1997-02-03 20:01 ` visigoth 1997-02-04 0:50 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1997-02-04 12:05 ` Kai Grossjohann 1 sibling, 1 reply; 48+ messages in thread From: visigoth @ 1997-02-03 20:01 UTC (permalink / raw) Rich Pieri <rich.pieri@PrescientTech.com> writes: > Then the mail server is messing up, because there *must* be one. The > Unix mail separator is "\nFrom ...". The newline must be there to > distinguish one message from the next. Actually, I read recently that "^From ..." is the separator. Any reasonable mail agent ought to produce only "\nFrom ", but should accept any line beginning with "From " as beginning a new message, regardless of whether or not it was preceeded by a blank. John. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 48+ messages in thread
* Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines 1997-02-03 20:01 ` visigoth @ 1997-02-04 0:50 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 0 siblings, 0 replies; 48+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1997-02-04 0:50 UTC (permalink / raw) visigoth@naiad.fac.cs.cmu.edu writes: > Actually, I read recently that "^From ..." is the separator. Any > reasonable mail agent ought to produce only "\nFrom ", but should > accept any line beginning with "From " as beginning a new message, > regardless of whether or not it was preceeded by a blank. No; the mail delivery agent should always put a blank line before the "From " line. That's the de facto standard in this area. If a delivery agent doesn't do that, it's broken. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@ifi.uio.no * Lars Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 48+ messages in thread
* Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines 1997-02-03 16:36 ` Rich Pieri 1997-02-03 20:01 ` visigoth @ 1997-02-04 12:05 ` Kai Grossjohann 1997-02-04 13:03 ` Bernard.Steiner 1997-02-04 13:10 ` Per Abrahamsen 1 sibling, 2 replies; 48+ messages in thread From: Kai Grossjohann @ 1997-02-04 12:05 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding, Michael.Huehne, Bernard.Steiner >>>>> "KG" == Kai Grossjohann >>>>> <grossjohann@charly.informatik.uni-dortmund.de> writes: KG> Note that there is no empty line between the first "bla bla" and KG> the second mail. >>>>> Rich Pieri writes: Rich> Then the mail server is messing up, because there *must* be Rich> one. The Unix mail separator is "\nFrom ...". The newline Rich> must be there to distinguish one message from the next. The POP3 server spits out mails separated by "\nFrom " but not "\n\nFrom ". If the standard sez one "\n" is enough then Gnus should grok that, too, shouldn't it? Sadly, I haven't read the RFC (which one is it?) myself so I'm not really sure whether the standard requires "\n\n" or not. kai -- My heart is down, my head is turning around; I had to leave a little girl in Kingston town. -- Harry Belafonte ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 48+ messages in thread
* Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines 1997-02-04 12:05 ` Kai Grossjohann @ 1997-02-04 13:03 ` Bernard.Steiner 1997-02-04 13:10 ` Per Abrahamsen 1 sibling, 0 replies; 48+ messages in thread From: Bernard.Steiner @ 1997-02-04 13:03 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: Rich Pieri, ding, Michael.Huehne, Bernard.Steiner Hi, KG> Note that there is no empty line between the first "bla bla" and KG> the second mail. That is completely beside the point, since the server sends all mails seperately. Rich> Then the mail server is messing up, because there *must* be Rich> one. The Unix mail separator is "\nFrom ...". The newline Rich> must be there to distinguish one message from the next. The POP3 server spits out mails separated by "\nFrom " but not "\n\nFrom ". If the standard sez one "\n" is enough then Gnus should grok that, too, shouldn't it? The POP3 server spits out messages *exactly* like +OK\r\nFrom ....\r\nRest of header\r\n\r\nbody with trailing\r\n.\r\n If the client side is able to receive single pieces of mail and then munges them up so as lateron not to be able to separate them again, this has nothing whatsoever to do with the server. Just for the record - there's no way in hell apart from a broken filesystem that the server mistakes two mails as one. Bernard ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 48+ messages in thread
* Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines 1997-02-04 12:05 ` Kai Grossjohann 1997-02-04 13:03 ` Bernard.Steiner @ 1997-02-04 13:10 ` Per Abrahamsen 1997-02-04 13:43 ` Kai Grossjohann 1 sibling, 1 reply; 48+ messages in thread From: Per Abrahamsen @ 1997-02-04 13:10 UTC (permalink / raw) Kai Grossjohann <grossjohann@charly.informatik.uni-dortmund.de> writes: > The POP3 server spits out mails separated by "\nFrom " but not > "\n\nFrom ". If the standard sez one "\n" is enough then Gnus should > grok that, too, shouldn't it? As far as I can see from RFC 1939 and movemail.c: A pop server always spit out a single message a time, so it doesn't have any use for unix mbox format. In fact, it would be a violation of the protocol if a messages began with `From '. It may contain as many "From " lines as wants, with or without a preceding empty line. They are still part of a single message. Movemail creates its output in BABYL format, and furthermore quotes all "From " lines it sees just to be sure. If I read these correct, you have a seriously broken POP server. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 48+ messages in thread
* Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines 1997-02-04 13:10 ` Per Abrahamsen @ 1997-02-04 13:43 ` Kai Grossjohann 1997-02-04 14:41 ` Bernard.Steiner 1997-02-04 15:23 ` Rich Pieri 0 siblings, 2 replies; 48+ messages in thread From: Kai Grossjohann @ 1997-02-04 13:43 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding, Bernard.Steiner >>>>> Per Abrahamsen writes: Per> If I read these correct, you have a seriously broken POP server. See Bernard's mail: I was all wrong, of course. As I see it now, the following is what happens: The POP3 server spits out a message at a time. The last line of some messages is empty, or some others it is non-empty. movemail concats all messages. This results in a file that contains several messages, one after the other, and in some cases, a message begins with "\r\n\r\nFrom " (twice CRLF) whereas in other cases, a message begins with "\r\nFrom " (just one CRLF). Gnus tries to read this file and does something strange when it sees the just-one-CRLF case. I do not know whether a POP3 server should be required to tack on an extra CRLF to the end of each message, thereby ensuring the twice-CRLF case always, or whether movemail should tack on the extra CRLF, or whether Gnus should be taught to do without the extra CRLF. But somehow I think that the POP3 server is *not* the problem here. kai -- My heart is down, my head is turning around; I had to leave a little girl in Kingston town. -- Harry Belafonte ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 48+ messages in thread
* Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines 1997-02-04 13:43 ` Kai Grossjohann @ 1997-02-04 14:41 ` Bernard.Steiner 1997-02-04 15:23 ` Rich Pieri 1 sibling, 0 replies; 48+ messages in thread From: Bernard.Steiner @ 1997-02-04 14:41 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: Per Abrahamsen, ding, Bernard.Steiner The POP3 server spits out a message at a time. The last line of some messages is empty, or some others it is non-empty. movemail concats all messages. This results in a file that contains several messages, one after the other, and in some cases, a message begins with "\r\n\r\nFrom " (twice CRLF) whereas in other cases, a message begins with "\r\nFrom " (just one CRLF). Gnus tries to read this file and does something strange when it sees the just-one-CRLF case. Not exactly. You should be aware of the fact that all occourances (sp ?) of "\r\n\r\nFrom " result from a non-initial mail in the mailbox, where the preceding mail happens to contain a trailing empty line. If you then interpret the empty trailing line (with the "\r\nFrom ") as a separator, this may turn out OK. However, there's no reason why a mail should contain a trailing empty line, and such a thing is certainly not required by RFC 1939 (quoted below) Responses to certain commands are multi-line. In these cases, which are clearly indicated below, after sending the first line of the response and a CRLF, any additional lines are sent, each terminated by a CRLF pair. When all lines of the response have been sent, a final line is sent, consisting of a termination octet (decimal code 046, ".") and a CRLF pair. BTW the whole business about multiple mails with separators utterly fails to produce recoverable results: Just consider PGP-signed mails that contain an empty line, followed by a single "From " such as in >From what I can see, this is a legal string iside a mail. Now, you can say that your clever little mail-sorer will escape that to yield a ">From " line, but then, the unpacking side will (correct me if I'm wrong) never do a delete-one-greater-sign-from-a-string-matching-"^>>>*From ". This is likely to produce checksum failures. I do not know whether a POP3 server should be required to tack on an extra CRLF to the end of each message, thereby ensuring the twice-CRLF case always, or whether movemail should tack on the extra CRLF, or whether Gnus should be taught to do without the extra CRLF. But somehow I think that the POP3 server is *not* the problem here. Nope, it just is required to make sure there's a \r\n.\r\n sequence to signify end of mail, where the CRLF pair before the dot belongs to the message. See RFC 1939. Bernard ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 48+ messages in thread
* Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines 1997-02-04 13:43 ` Kai Grossjohann 1997-02-04 14:41 ` Bernard.Steiner @ 1997-02-04 15:23 ` Rich Pieri 1997-02-04 15:31 ` Kai Grossjohann 1 sibling, 1 reply; 48+ messages in thread From: Rich Pieri @ 1997-02-04 15:23 UTC (permalink / raw) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >>>>> "KG" == Kai Grossjohann >>>>> <grossjohann@charly.informatik.uni-dortmund.de> writes: KG> I do not know whether a POP3 server should be required to tack on an KG> extra CRLF to the end of each message, thereby ensuring the twice-CRLF KG> case always, or whether movemail should tack on the extra CRLF, or KG> whether Gnus should be taught to do without the extra CRLF. The "end of message" marker that the POP3 server spits out is "\r\n.\r\n". The first "\r\n" pair will start on a new line (it will not be attached to the end of the last line of the message), and will be written out to the local mail file; the ".\r\n" will not be written. Then the next message is tacked on after that: ====== ... A Stone & Webster Company | and cover head. I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC | \r\n - From ... ... ====== KG> But somehow I think that the POP3 server is *not* the problem here. I am inclined to agree; it is the delivery agent this guy is using that is the problem. It is failing to create proper delimiters in the system mailbox, resulting in the POP server seeing the entire mailbox as a single message. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3a Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBMvdUcZ6VRH7BJMxHAQE1HwP7B8rD8mBXH9c/jzdPDVnMBnHzifbQygM7 SObU54H8bl/qU5PC1vM0lIueJWmFGTz4I1O5mlFxqqIMAPSoVvuYGiT+lcRMOAFm pm8FI11WhQLk3XpZ5EjyaxMjEyhQLOBuf05/P29ZhfPPZ/IDhpWhGvZ527wMOTrt jVMM3/qTYio= =n66P -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri <rich.pieri@prescienttech.com> | Caution: Happy Fun Ball may Prescient Technologies, Inc. | suddenly accelerate to dangerous A Stone & Webster Company | speeds. I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC | ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 48+ messages in thread
* Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines 1997-02-04 15:23 ` Rich Pieri @ 1997-02-04 15:31 ` Kai Grossjohann 0 siblings, 0 replies; 48+ messages in thread From: Kai Grossjohann @ 1997-02-04 15:31 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding, Michael.Huehne, Bernard.Steiner >>>>> Rich Pieri writes: Rich> I am inclined to agree; it is the delivery agent this guy is Rich> using that is the problem. It is failing to create proper Rich> delimiters in the system mailbox, resulting in the POP server Rich> seeing the entire mailbox as a single message. I know for sure that the POP3 server works well in that respect: talking POP3 directly to the server reveals that it groks the different messages all right. (I use the same POP3 server and have talked to it like that.) kai -- My heart is down, my head is turning around; I had to leave a little girl in Kingston town. -- Harry Belafonte ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 48+ messages in thread
* Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines 1997-02-03 15:24 Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines Kai Grossjohann 1997-02-03 16:36 ` Rich Pieri @ 1997-02-04 10:14 ` dave edmondson 1997-02-04 14:52 ` Rich Pieri 1997-02-05 22:40 ` Michael Huehne 1997-02-05 10:47 ` Kai Grossjohann 2 siblings, 2 replies; 48+ messages in thread From: dave edmondson @ 1997-02-04 10:14 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: Ding-Gnus Mailing List, Michael.Huehne surely discussions about delivery agent are secondary. the first thing i'd check is that the pop server is actually dishing the messages out in distinct pieces. if this is the case, then movemail should be coerced into generating a correct mailbox file (ie. it should be told to ensure that there is a \n\nFrom seperator). if the pop server _doesn't_ give out these two as seperate messages, then perhaps it and the delivery agent on the pop serving machine should be examined. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 48+ messages in thread
* Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines 1997-02-04 10:14 ` dave edmondson @ 1997-02-04 14:52 ` Rich Pieri 1997-02-05 22:40 ` Michael Huehne 1 sibling, 0 replies; 48+ messages in thread From: Rich Pieri @ 1997-02-04 14:52 UTC (permalink / raw) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >>>>> "de" == dave edmondson <dme@sco.com> writes: de> surely discussions about delivery agent are secondary. the first de> thing i'd check is that the pop server is actually dishing the de> messages out in distinct pieces. The POP server has no other choice than to do this. There is no POP command to retrieve an entire mailbox as a single chunk; each message must be explicitly downloaded with a `RETR <msgid>' command. I still say that it is the MTA (actually the delivery agent responsible for appending to the mailbox) that is failing to insert the requisite blank line before the new "\nFrom " line. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3a Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBMvdNSJ6VRH7BJMxHAQEYMQP+PwVhW0A+sQBctGVMpVnCbkb3tf3fXZqy qan4P50xSuLimtfOQwOI9/AB/JhbTuGwj+f9QXj2qw98TnSxeveeGfM2+wsfQdmN MkgUhwTSP3zdrGodzlKwMTNGfbwH5OcGSHrttz26R7GORRv3sDYra/VTAwan22S/ EkyDyjk9GEc= =n+vl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri <rich.pieri@prescienttech.com> | Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain Prescient Technologies, Inc. | types of skin. A Stone & Webster Company | I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC | ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 48+ messages in thread
* Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines 1997-02-04 10:14 ` dave edmondson 1997-02-04 14:52 ` Rich Pieri @ 1997-02-05 22:40 ` Michael Huehne 1 sibling, 0 replies; 48+ messages in thread From: Michael Huehne @ 1997-02-05 22:40 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: Kai Grossjohann, Ding-Gnus Mailing List, Michael.Huehne, Bernard.Steiner >>>>> "dave" == dave edmondson <dme@sco.com> schreibt: dave> surely discussions about delivery agent are secondary. the dave> first thing i'd check is that the pop server is actually dave> dishing the messages out in distinct pieces. if this is the dave> case, then movemail should be coerced into generating a correct dave> mailbox file (ie. it should be told to ensure that there is a dave> \n\nFrom seperator). if the pop server _doesn't_ give out dave> these two as seperate messages, then perhaps it and the dave> delivery agent on the pop serving machine should be examined. Hello Dave, I need to say thanks to all you friendly folks trying to help me. But, as far as I could see this must be a problem of a gnus later then rgnus-0.50. I have never had this kind of problems using rguns-0.50 or gnus-5.2.40 or much older gnus. I have not changed my emacs-19.34.1 or movemailbinary since many month. I first saw this problem in gnus-0.71 or so. After loosing several Mails I gave up testing beta gnus versions later than .50. But now the problem occurs again with a official gnus-5.4.8. In this moment I told Kai (my friend an Lisp GURU) about the problem. He was so kind to suport me with his initial mail in this thread. All I have changed is gnus ! So there must be the problem. By the way ... I love to use gnus. But the sgnus t-shirts in xxl from Lars are *not* fitting for 3 meter giants ! -- Freundliche Grüße, Best regards, Michael Hühne ==================================== Michael Hühne = ____ = Lt. technische Vertriebsunterstützung = / / / ___ ___ _/_ = Email: Michael.Huehne@Germany.EU.net = /---- / / / / /___/ / = EUnet Deutschland GmbH = /____ /___/ / / /___ / = Emil-Figge-Str. 80 === === D-44227 Dortmund Germany === Connecting Europe since 1982 === Tel.: +49/231/972-1071 Fax.: -1122 #include <disclaimer.h> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 48+ messages in thread
* Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines 1997-02-03 15:24 Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines Kai Grossjohann 1997-02-03 16:36 ` Rich Pieri 1997-02-04 10:14 ` dave edmondson @ 1997-02-05 10:47 ` Kai Grossjohann 1997-02-08 9:25 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 2 siblings, 1 reply; 48+ messages in thread From: Kai Grossjohann @ 1997-02-05 10:47 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: Ding-Gnus Mailing List, Michael.Huehne >>>>> Kai Grossjohann writes: Kai> Hi all, Kai> Michael uses movemail to read mail from a POP3 server. If a mail Kai> doesn't end with an empty line, the following mail isn't split Kai> correctly. Rehi, in the last thread I said some strange things. I must've been out of my mind (or haven't thought long enough about what happens). OK, it seems that movemail creates a babyl file if reading from a POP3 server. I have already asked Michael to please run movemail manually to show you the babyl file that's produced when a message doesn't end with an empty line. Anyhow, it worked for him with Gnus 5.2.40 and Rgnus 0.50 (!) and discontinued working in rgnus 0.70 (or 0.71 or so). It still doesn't work with 5.4.8. I did a cursory search of nnmail-process-babyl-mail-format in 5.2.40's nnmail.el and in 5.4.11's nnmail.el but couldn't find anything offhand. These functions *are* different, though, but I can't immediately see the effects. You'll be hearing from us later, I presume. kai -- My heart is down, my head is turning around; I had to leave a little girl in Kingston town. -- Harry Belafonte ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 48+ messages in thread
* Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines 1997-02-05 10:47 ` Kai Grossjohann @ 1997-02-08 9:25 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1997-02-08 11:50 ` visigoth 0 siblings, 1 reply; 48+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1997-02-08 9:25 UTC (permalink / raw) Kai Grossjohann <grossjohann@ls6.informatik.uni-dortmund.de> writes: > OK, it seems that movemail creates a babyl file if reading from a POP3 > server. I have already asked Michael to please run movemail manually > to show you the babyl file that's produced when a message doesn't end > with an empty line. > > Anyhow, it worked for him with Gnus 5.2.40 and Rgnus 0.50 (!) and > discontinued working in rgnus 0.70 (or 0.71 or so). It still doesn't > work with 5.4.8. Yes; the change was made around 0.70, I think. The new version is more correct than the last version, but it doesn't deal with these types of misconstructed spool files. The "From " header is supposed to have a blank line before it, from what I understand. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@ifi.uio.no * Lars Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 48+ messages in thread
* Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines 1997-02-08 9:25 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1997-02-08 11:50 ` visigoth 1997-02-08 12:32 ` Per Abrahamsen 1997-02-10 4:45 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 0 siblings, 2 replies; 48+ messages in thread From: visigoth @ 1997-02-08 11:50 UTC (permalink / raw) Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@ifi.uio.no> writes: > Yes; the change was made around 0.70, I think. The new version is > more correct than the last version, but it doesn't deal with these > types of misconstructed spool files. The "From " header is supposed > to have a blank line before it, from what I understand. Okay--here's a quote from the document I found which talks about mbox format. It's from the man pages that come with qmail (yes, D.J. Bernstein is a flaming, uh, maniac, but I think this is reasonable): A message encoded in mbox format begins with a From_ line, continues with a series of non-From_ lines, and ends with a blank line. {...} HOW A MESSAGE IS READ A reader scans through an mbox file looking for From_ lines. Any From_ line marks the beginning of a message. The reader should not attempt to take advantage of the fact that every From_ line (past the beginning of the file) is preceded by a blank line. {...} It's my belief, that regardless of what any standard says, Gnus should accept messages in this broken format. Remember: the goal is to accept as many formats as possible, even if they're broken, and to produce only correct output. >From ... some stuff >From this line is in the message, not a new one some more stuff should never be generated as an mbox file, unless Content-Length is included in the file, because From lines are quoted with >. This is *not* ambiguous. The above can only be generated by two sequential messages. The fact that we know of at least one place that the above can happen for two messages and no places where it can occur for a single message leads me to a rather obvious conclusion. Sorry to rant, but I don't see why this is being argued about. John. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 48+ messages in thread
* Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines 1997-02-08 11:50 ` visigoth @ 1997-02-08 12:32 ` Per Abrahamsen 1997-02-08 16:08 ` Frank D. Cringle 1997-02-09 2:58 ` Rich Pieri 1997-02-10 4:45 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1 sibling, 2 replies; 48+ messages in thread From: Per Abrahamsen @ 1997-02-08 12:32 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding visigoth@naiad.fac.cs.cmu.edu writes: > Okay--here's a quote from the document I found which talks about mbox > format. It's from the man pages that come with qmail (yes, > D.J. Bernstein is a flaming, uh, maniac, but I think this is > reasonable): Apropos: I think it would be nice if Gnus supported the less brain damaged mbox format DJB advocates: When a plain text message is imported to an mbox, all lines matching "^>*From " are quoted. When a mbox message is exported (displayed, saved to plain text), all lines staring with `^>+From " are unquoted. It has two advantages: 1) No loss of information occurs when used on new messages. Ever. 2) When the algorithm is used on old messages already in an mbox folder, in 99.8% percent of the cases, the results are more correct. JWZ hates it, but he is wrong and DJB is right. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 48+ messages in thread
* Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines 1997-02-08 12:32 ` Per Abrahamsen @ 1997-02-08 16:08 ` Frank D. Cringle 1997-02-08 19:11 ` Steven L Baur 1997-02-09 2:58 ` Rich Pieri 1 sibling, 1 reply; 48+ messages in thread From: Frank D. Cringle @ 1997-02-08 16:08 UTC (permalink / raw) Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes: [ about mbox From_ quoting ] >JWZ hates it, but he is wrong and DJB is right. I agree. -- Frank Cringle, fdc@cliwe.ping.de voice: (+49 2304) 467101; fax: 943357 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 48+ messages in thread
* Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines 1997-02-08 16:08 ` Frank D. Cringle @ 1997-02-08 19:11 ` Steven L Baur 0 siblings, 0 replies; 48+ messages in thread From: Steven L Baur @ 1997-02-08 19:11 UTC (permalink / raw) Frank D Cringle writes: > Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes: > [ about mbox From_ quoting ] >> JWZ hates it, but he is wrong and DJB is right. > I agree. As do I. Isn't this what Gnus is doing now? Or was it that only archiving outgoing messages was changed? -- steve@miranova.com baur Unsolicited commercial e-mail will be billed at $250/message. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 48+ messages in thread
* Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines 1997-02-08 12:32 ` Per Abrahamsen 1997-02-08 16:08 ` Frank D. Cringle @ 1997-02-09 2:58 ` Rich Pieri 1997-02-09 9:34 ` Per Abrahamsen 1 sibling, 1 reply; 48+ messages in thread From: Rich Pieri @ 1997-02-09 2:58 UTC (permalink / raw) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >>>>> "PA" == Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes: PA> Apropos: I think it would be nice if Gnus supported the less brain PA> damaged mbox format DJB advocates: When a plain text message is PA> imported to an mbox, all lines matching "^>*From " are quoted. When PA> a mbox message is exported (displayed, saved to plain text), all PA> lines staring with `^>+From " are unquoted. So tell me, how does this algorithm know that a given quoted "From " line in the body of the message is one that should be dequoted? No, the MUA should not touch anything in the body of the message if there is any way at all to avoid it. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3a Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBMv09QZ6VRH7BJMxHAQFUkgP/cOGIUZPFXBaYmvpRZnfOqwVKKkgr87+g gKwgwk6mOCdhSFHdpJ4qi70MlV2BUTd/gWL2uBvQukrP0nX6mh02TVtEZCII0pyV L3Idm/7vro67aynNEjOY9sZPvSyX88SXbCPK12bYo3fwgbxbJfci/lAIGr1F65O6 EhPmYRDXXGI= =WvTX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri <rich.pieri@prescienttech.com> | Do not use Happy Fun Ball on Prescient Technologies, Inc. | concrete. A Stone & Webster Company | I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC | ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 48+ messages in thread
* Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines 1997-02-09 2:58 ` Rich Pieri @ 1997-02-09 9:34 ` Per Abrahamsen 1997-02-09 14:56 ` Randal Schwartz 1997-02-09 16:19 ` Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines Rich Pieri 0 siblings, 2 replies; 48+ messages in thread From: Per Abrahamsen @ 1997-02-09 9:34 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Rich Pieri <rich.pieri@PrescientTech.com> writes: > So tell me, how does this algorithm know that a given quoted "From " > line in the body of the message is one that should be dequoted? Yes. They all should, if created by the algorithm above. This leads to zero loss of information, unlike the traditional algorithm. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 48+ messages in thread
* Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines 1997-02-09 9:34 ` Per Abrahamsen @ 1997-02-09 14:56 ` Randal Schwartz 1997-02-09 15:32 ` mbox quoting (was: Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines) Per Abrahamsen 1997-02-09 16:19 ` Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines Rich Pieri 1 sibling, 1 reply; 48+ messages in thread From: Randal Schwartz @ 1997-02-09 14:56 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: Rich Pieri, ding >>>>> "Per" == Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes: Per> Rich Pieri <rich.pieri@PrescientTech.com> writes: >> So tell me, how does this algorithm know that a given quoted "From " >> line in the body of the message is one that should be dequoted? Per> Yes. They all should, if created by the algorithm above. This leads Per> to zero loss of information, unlike the traditional algorithm. Huh? What if my *original* message just happened to have ">From " in one of the lines? You've now turned it into "From ". There is *no* way to get both "From " and ">From " safely from the original message all the way to the end user, if "From " is also the intermessage delimiter. So, you must compromise on one or the other. Most MUAs that I've seen turn "From " into ">From ", and then leave it alone. That seems reasonable, but it may just be that it's particularly familiar. -- Name: Randal L. Schwartz / Stonehenge Consulting Services (503)777-0095 Keywords: Perl training, UNIX[tm] consulting, video production, skiing, flying Email: <merlyn@stonehenge.com> Snail: (Call) PGP-Key: (finger merlyn@ora.com) Web: <A HREF="http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/">My Home Page!</A> Quote: "I'm telling you, if I could have five lines in my .sig, I would!" -- me ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 48+ messages in thread
* mbox quoting (was: Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines) 1997-02-09 14:56 ` Randal Schwartz @ 1997-02-09 15:32 ` Per Abrahamsen 1997-02-10 14:52 ` Rich Pieri 0 siblings, 1 reply; 48+ messages in thread From: Per Abrahamsen @ 1997-02-09 15:32 UTC (permalink / raw) Randal Schwartz <merlyn@stonehenge.com> writes: > Huh? What if my *original* message just happened to have ">From " in one > of the lines? You've now turned it into "From ". No. "\n>From " matches the regexp "^>*From " and is therefore quoted by this algorithm when imported. When exported, the quote is removed. I.e. plain file: >From whatever becomes when added to the mbox: >>From whatever and then again when exported to plain text: >From whatever Zero corruption. The arguments for are: - When used on new messages, the new algorithm is always perfect. - When used on old messages, the new algorithm is usually better. The argument against: - Better continue with well known corruption of new messages, than to make any risk of introducing new kinds of corruption to old messages. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 48+ messages in thread
* Re: mbox quoting (was: Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines) 1997-02-09 15:32 ` mbox quoting (was: Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines) Per Abrahamsen @ 1997-02-10 14:52 ` Rich Pieri 1997-02-10 15:30 ` Per Abrahamsen 1997-02-10 15:45 ` Lars Balker Rasmussen 0 siblings, 2 replies; 48+ messages in thread From: Rich Pieri @ 1997-02-10 14:52 UTC (permalink / raw) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >>>>> "PA" == Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes: PA> No. "\n>From " matches the regexp "^>*From " and is therefore quoted PA> by this algorithm when imported. When exported, the quote is removed. For the third time, how does this algorithm distinguish between a From line quoted by it and one that happens to have a funky citation leader that happens to match the regular expression? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3a Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBMv82IZ6VRH7BJMxHAQEg3gP/XKyMUlylGyP5HdkOdrBTFdCVO3CVz5cL gCcfZJL/mA6488TXS8eG15Gez4MK/g2LBEObuZ1HK6pSgkGBqq3sW3m7dOvP+hdD HrzGz1j8FD6zZdairxWDchQIinsKd/0Ri7LeujvYUcHA+nz16H6nPYFQNv4L88H8 KtVDozH7GKw= =xb3n -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri <rich.pieri@prescienttech.com> | Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain Prescient Technologies, Inc. | types of skin. A Stone & Webster Company | I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC | ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 48+ messages in thread
* Re: mbox quoting (was: Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines) 1997-02-10 14:52 ` Rich Pieri @ 1997-02-10 15:30 ` Per Abrahamsen 1997-02-10 15:45 ` Lars Balker Rasmussen 1 sibling, 0 replies; 48+ messages in thread From: Per Abrahamsen @ 1997-02-10 15:30 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Rich Pieri <rich.pieri@PrescientTech.com> writes: > For the third time, Please read Mark Eichin's explanation. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 48+ messages in thread
* Re: mbox quoting (was: Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines) 1997-02-10 14:52 ` Rich Pieri 1997-02-10 15:30 ` Per Abrahamsen @ 1997-02-10 15:45 ` Lars Balker Rasmussen 1997-02-11 9:25 ` Greg Stark 1 sibling, 1 reply; 48+ messages in thread From: Lars Balker Rasmussen @ 1997-02-10 15:45 UTC (permalink / raw) Rich Pieri <rich.pieri@PrescientTech.com> writes: > For the third time, how does this algorithm distinguish between a From > line quoted by it and one that happens to have a funky citation leader > that happens to match the regular expression? Because it quotes ALL ">*From" lines! ">>From" can only be in an article, if the algorithm put the first > there. Just like the NNTP server quotes all leading .'s, so it can be certain that a single dot on the line means end of data. -- Lars Balker Rasmussen <URL:http://www.daimi.aau.dk/~gnort/> I am *not* selling crack from my cubicle!!! ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 48+ messages in thread
* Re: mbox quoting (was: Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines) 1997-02-10 15:45 ` Lars Balker Rasmussen @ 1997-02-11 9:25 ` Greg Stark 1997-02-11 11:36 ` Per Abrahamsen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 48+ messages in thread From: Greg Stark @ 1997-02-11 9:25 UTC (permalink / raw) > Because it quotes ALL ">*From" lines! ">>From" can only be in an > article, if the algorithm put the first > there. > Just like the NNTP server quotes all leading .'s, so it can be certain > that a single dot on the line means end of data. this would be a perfectly consistent and probably superior format but the important thing to realize is that it would be a different format than the existing mbox. It's really far too late in the game to be fiddling with the mbox format, you lose compatibility with an enormous number of other clients and invent yet another mail format only one with no published spec and one that's easily mistaken for another format. If you really dislike this little wart in the mbox format use babyl, or mh, or any other mail format, it's just not worth inventing a new one. greg ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 48+ messages in thread
* Re: mbox quoting (was: Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines) 1997-02-11 9:25 ` Greg Stark @ 1997-02-11 11:36 ` Per Abrahamsen 1997-02-11 12:52 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1997-02-11 12:57 ` Randal Schwartz 0 siblings, 2 replies; 48+ messages in thread From: Per Abrahamsen @ 1997-02-11 11:36 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Greg Stark <gsstark@MIT.EDU> writes: > you lose compatibility with an enormous number of other clients You don't lose compatibility with any software. The algorithm will work on any syntactically correct mbox, and produce a syntactically correct mbox. All existing tools will continue to work. The two cases are: (1) When software using the old algorithm is used on mboxes created by the new algorithm, no additional damage is done. (2) When software using the new algorithm is used on mboxes created by the old algorithm, the result is usually, but not always, better or equal to what software using the old algorithm would produce. Conclusion: (a) The new algorithm doesn't corrupt new messages, protect them against damage corruption by old clients, and usually work better on already corrupted mboxes. (b) The old algorithm corrupts old messages, and doesn't work very well on already corrupted mboxes, but at least doesn't inflict further damage on uncorrupted mboxes. > If you really dislike this little wart in the mbox format use babyl, BABYL is even more broken than mbox. BABYL doesn't escape its delimiter at all. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 48+ messages in thread
* Re: mbox quoting (was: Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines) 1997-02-11 11:36 ` Per Abrahamsen @ 1997-02-11 12:52 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1997-02-11 13:44 ` Per Abrahamsen 1997-02-11 18:43 ` Sudish Joseph 1997-02-11 12:57 ` Randal Schwartz 1 sibling, 2 replies; 48+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1997-02-11 12:52 UTC (permalink / raw) Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes: > (1) When software using the old algorithm is used on mboxes created by > the new algorithm, no additional damage is done. Original mail (indented to avoid mailers choking): She said: >From the beginning of time >man has yearned to destroy the sun. People who use old software on new mboxes will see things like: She said: >>From the beginning of time >man has yearned to destroy the sun. I think this may be called "additional damage". > (2) When software using the new algorithm is used on mboxes created by > the old algorithm, the result is usually, but not always, better or > equal to what software using the old algorithm would produce. It is usually better, but people using new software on old mboxes would then see: She said: From the beginning of time >man has yearned to destroy the sun. I'm not arguing that the new format is worse than the old -- it isn't. It's much better. But we have to keep in mind that it is a *new* format, and using it will introduce new problems. It isn't simply an improvement of the old format; it's a new, incompatible format. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@ifi.uio.no * Lars Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 48+ messages in thread
* Re: mbox quoting (was: Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines) 1997-02-11 12:52 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1997-02-11 13:44 ` Per Abrahamsen 1997-02-11 18:43 ` Sudish Joseph 1 sibling, 0 replies; 48+ messages in thread From: Per Abrahamsen @ 1997-02-11 13:44 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@ifi.uio.no> writes: > People who use old software on new mboxes will see things like: > > She said: > > >>From the beginning of time > >man has yearned to destroy the sun. > > I think this may be called "additional damage". Right. My point was that the original would still be recoverable (by using the new algorithm). The message in the mbox does not change. In this way it is different than the Content-Length hack. If you use the old tools on that a CL-mbox, it could do unrecoverable damage to the mbox and the individual messages. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 48+ messages in thread
* Re: mbox quoting (was: Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines) 1997-02-11 12:52 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1997-02-11 13:44 ` Per Abrahamsen @ 1997-02-11 18:43 ` Sudish Joseph 1997-02-12 7:35 ` Per Abrahamsen 1997-02-12 8:47 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1 sibling, 2 replies; 48+ messages in thread From: Sudish Joseph @ 1997-02-11 18:43 UTC (permalink / raw) Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen writes: > People who use old software on new mboxes will see things like: If this is the only obstacle, that of using other MUA's, why not make it a group parameter to nnfolder and be done with it? nnml shouldn't do any quoting at all, of course. I would love to have the functionality. It's obvious that there're a few who don't want it. Make it optional. Why Randal couldn't munge all his mailboxes into either format in one line of Perl is beyond me. :) -Sudish ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 48+ messages in thread
* Re: mbox quoting (was: Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines) 1997-02-11 18:43 ` Sudish Joseph @ 1997-02-12 7:35 ` Per Abrahamsen 1997-02-12 12:52 ` Randal Schwartz 1997-02-12 8:47 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1 sibling, 1 reply; 48+ messages in thread From: Per Abrahamsen @ 1997-02-12 7:35 UTC (permalink / raw) Sudish Joseph <sudish@mindspring.com> writes: > Why Randal couldn't munge all his mailboxes into either format in one > line of Perl is beyond me. :) Because information is lost for messages stored with the old algorithm. You can easily remove the extra quoting performed by the new algorithm, like this s/^>(>*From )/\1/ but I cannot see why anyone would want to do that. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 48+ messages in thread
* Re: mbox quoting (was: Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines) 1997-02-12 7:35 ` Per Abrahamsen @ 1997-02-12 12:52 ` Randal Schwartz 0 siblings, 0 replies; 48+ messages in thread From: Randal Schwartz @ 1997-02-12 12:52 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: The Ding List >>>>> "Per" == Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes: Per> Sudish Joseph <sudish@mindspring.com> writes: >> Why Randal couldn't munge all his mailboxes into either format in one >> line of Perl is beyond me. :) Per> Because information is lost for messages stored with the old Per> algorithm. You can easily remove the extra quoting performed by the Per> new algorithm, like this Per> s/^>(>*From )/\1/ Per> but I cannot see why anyone would want to do that. No, that's not cool enough: s/^>(?=>*From )//; New positive lookahead feature. Very cool, literally "replace this > with nothing *only* when it is followed by >*From". And yours should have had $1 on right, not \1. Oh well. :-) Enough perl. Back to ding-ing around. -- Name: Randal L. Schwartz / Stonehenge Consulting Services (503)777-0095 Keywords: Perl training, UNIX[tm] consulting, video production, skiing, flying Email: <merlyn@stonehenge.com> Snail: (Call) PGP-Key: (finger merlyn@ora.com) Web: <A HREF="http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/">My Home Page!</A> Quote: "I'm telling you, if I could have five lines in my .sig, I would!" -- me ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 48+ messages in thread
* Re: mbox quoting (was: Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines) 1997-02-11 18:43 ` Sudish Joseph 1997-02-12 7:35 ` Per Abrahamsen @ 1997-02-12 8:47 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1 sibling, 0 replies; 48+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1997-02-12 8:47 UTC (permalink / raw) Sudish Joseph <sudish@mindspring.com> writes: > If this is the only obstacle, that of using other MUA's, why not make > it a group parameter to nnfolder and be done with it? I think it's a good idea to use the new format -- but we have to be aware that it is a new format; that's all. The lossage will in all probability be less by using the new format than the old. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@ifi.uio.no * Lars Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 48+ messages in thread
* Re: mbox quoting (was: Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines) 1997-02-11 11:36 ` Per Abrahamsen 1997-02-11 12:52 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1997-02-11 12:57 ` Randal Schwartz 1997-02-11 13:28 ` Per Abrahamsen 1 sibling, 1 reply; 48+ messages in thread From: Randal Schwartz @ 1997-02-11 12:57 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: Greg Stark, ding >>>>> "Per" == Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes: Per> Greg Stark <gsstark@MIT.EDU> writes: >> you lose compatibility with an enormous number of other clients Per> You don't lose compatibility with any software. The algorithm will Per> work on any syntactically correct mbox, and produce a syntactically Per> correct mbox. All existing tools will continue to work. Per> The two cases are: Per> (1) When software using the old algorithm is used on mboxes created by Per> the new algorithm, no additional damage is done. Wrong. >>From becomes >From, where it wasn't originally. That looks like damage to me. Per> (2) When software using the new algorithm is used on mboxes created by Per> the old algorithm, the result is usually, but not always, better or Per> equal to what software using the old algorithm would produce. Content of paragraph: zero. :-) -- Name: Randal L. Schwartz / Stonehenge Consulting Services (503)777-0095 Keywords: Perl training, UNIX[tm] consulting, video production, skiing, flying Email: <merlyn@stonehenge.com> Snail: (Call) PGP-Key: (finger merlyn@ora.com) Web: <A HREF="http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/">My Home Page!</A> Quote: "I'm telling you, if I could have five lines in my .sig, I would!" -- me ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 48+ messages in thread
* Re: mbox quoting (was: Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines) 1997-02-11 12:57 ` Randal Schwartz @ 1997-02-11 13:28 ` Per Abrahamsen 1997-02-11 13:33 ` Randal Schwartz 0 siblings, 1 reply; 48+ messages in thread From: Per Abrahamsen @ 1997-02-11 13:28 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: Greg Stark, ding Randal Schwartz <merlyn@stonehenge.com> writes: > Per> (1) When software using the old algorithm is used on mboxes created by > Per> the new algorithm, no additional damage is done. > > Wrong. >>From becomes >From, where it wasn't originally. That looks > like damage to me. Wrong. The old algorithm doesn't unqote "^>>From" so no change happens. You /could/ argue that it does damage by *not* unquoting it, though. Perhaps you were talking about the case (2), where this can happen? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 48+ messages in thread
* Re: mbox quoting (was: Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines) 1997-02-11 13:28 ` Per Abrahamsen @ 1997-02-11 13:33 ` Randal Schwartz 1997-02-11 14:16 ` Per Abrahamsen 1997-02-11 15:00 ` Rich Pieri 0 siblings, 2 replies; 48+ messages in thread From: Randal Schwartz @ 1997-02-11 13:33 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: Randal Schwartz, Greg Stark, ding >>>>> "Per" == Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes: Per> Randal Schwartz <merlyn@stonehenge.com> writes: Per> (1) When software using the old algorithm is used on mboxes created by Per> the new algorithm, no additional damage is done. >> >> Wrong. >>From becomes >From, where it wasn't originally. That looks >> like damage to me. Per> Wrong. The old algorithm doesn't unqote "^>>From" so no change happens. Per> You /could/ argue that it does damage by *not* unquoting it, though. Per> Perhaps you were talking about the case (2), where this can happen? Oops. Yes, I read this backwards. Really, the two things are just plain incompatible. I don't know why you tried to explain it any better than that. Using a "new" quoting on an old box or an "old" quoting on a new box will break things. -- Name: Randal L. Schwartz / Stonehenge Consulting Services (503)777-0095 Keywords: Perl training, UNIX[tm] consulting, video production, skiing, flying Email: <merlyn@stonehenge.com> Snail: (Call) PGP-Key: (finger merlyn@ora.com) Web: <A HREF="http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/">My Home Page!</A> Quote: "I'm telling you, if I could have five lines in my .sig, I would!" -- me ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 48+ messages in thread
* Re: mbox quoting (was: Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines) 1997-02-11 13:33 ` Randal Schwartz @ 1997-02-11 14:16 ` Per Abrahamsen 1997-02-11 16:13 ` Rich Pieri 1997-02-11 15:00 ` Rich Pieri 1 sibling, 1 reply; 48+ messages in thread From: Per Abrahamsen @ 1997-02-11 14:16 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Randal Schwartz <merlyn@stonehenge.com> writes: > Really, the two things are just plain incompatible. The old algorithm is incompatible with itself. > Using a "new" quoting on an old box or an "old" quoting on a new box > will break things. Using "old" quoting on an "old" box will also break things, and worse than either of the two above. The only way to avoid breaking things is "new" quoting on a "new" box. "old" + "old" gives you: much damage, but damage we are used to. "old" + "new" gives you: less, but different, damage. "new" + "new" gives you: no damage. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 48+ messages in thread
* Re: mbox quoting (was: Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines) 1997-02-11 14:16 ` Per Abrahamsen @ 1997-02-11 16:13 ` Rich Pieri 1997-02-12 7:28 ` Per Abrahamsen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 48+ messages in thread From: Rich Pieri @ 1997-02-11 16:13 UTC (permalink / raw) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >>>>> "PA" == Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes: PA> Using "old" quoting on an "old" box will also break things, and worse PA> than either of the two above. PA> "old" + "old" gives you: much damage, but damage we are used to. No... because one will never perform quoting on an old mbox, under the assumption that if any quoting is necessary on that mbox has already been performed. The old mbox is never dequoted, so further quoting is unnecessary. PA> "old" + "new" gives you: less, but different, damage. If so, it is because the new algorithm is broken. If a message body has been quoted it should not be quoted again. This "new" algorithm blatantly transforms the message body when such transformation may be unnecessary. If any damage occours to the message due to this transformation it is clearly the algorithm that is responsible. PA> "new" + "new" gives you: no damage. PA> The only way to avoid breaking things is "new" quoting on a "new" box. No, because most modern MUAs know about the standard/conventional method. What you are proposing will (or at least may) break them even if it does not damage messages in Gnus. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3a Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBMwCalZ6VRH7BJMxHAQGSiwP/d1XA955zcxvZVg35YZ0Y0CcOmCC+AU9a 5pRIi4w6tRao7/36hkTaTOIoYyf2gZhIh2lNgjx++WU45vJGeSSRkrD/7hektJ3x EIQhsITpCYLDlWVKAC5VeZ4oniqTrUumZcUANRtqkVgtrF71A9H8OcgcJ0/Fw952 RV3u5dVOAGY= =OMLF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri <rich.pieri@prescienttech.com> | Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid Prescient Technologies, Inc. | core, which, if exposed due to A Stone & Webster Company | rupture, should not be touched, I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC | inhaled, or looked at. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 48+ messages in thread
* Re: mbox quoting (was: Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines) 1997-02-11 16:13 ` Rich Pieri @ 1997-02-12 7:28 ` Per Abrahamsen 0 siblings, 0 replies; 48+ messages in thread From: Per Abrahamsen @ 1997-02-12 7:28 UTC (permalink / raw) Rich Pieri <rich.pieri@PrescientTech.com> writes: Apparently I did again fail to make myself clear. > PA> "old" + "old" gives you: much damage, but damage we are used to. This refers to using the old dequoting rules (i.e. none) on an mbox generated with the old quoting rules. > PA> "old" + "new" gives you: less, but different, damage. This refers to using the new dequoting rules on an mbox generated with the old quoting rules. > PA> "new" + "new" gives you: no damage. This refers to using the new dequoting rules on an mbox generated with the new quoting rules. Hope this helps. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 48+ messages in thread
* Re: mbox quoting (was: Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines) 1997-02-11 13:33 ` Randal Schwartz 1997-02-11 14:16 ` Per Abrahamsen @ 1997-02-11 15:00 ` Rich Pieri 1 sibling, 0 replies; 48+ messages in thread From: Rich Pieri @ 1997-02-11 15:00 UTC (permalink / raw) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >>>>> "RS" == Randal Schwartz <merlyn@stonehenge.com> writes: RS> Really, the two things are just plain incompatible. I don't know why RS> you tried to explain it any better than that. Using a "new" quoting RS> on an old box or an "old" quoting on a new box will break things. These were the cases that I wanted someone to explain, because I could not see how any "simple" algorithm would not "break" a message (change the contents). This new method will work consistantly IFF Gnus is used exclusively. But if you use some other MUA -- and there are a lot of people who do -- this will be annoying at the least, and present messages incorrectly. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3a Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBMwCJh56VRH7BJMxHAQFpwgQAuj4zejnQD1JYTnCRkdx29B4StaiTWYf3 dm7/Bfzv6P+9XXcPIb/3YIqDGyXGdlkLmKa4X5vR3Ol7uScHHiJs2zVhYiITzgG9 uSsPhVTvT1wEqaidY5sU0GMvmmeh0y+xq7hWSCGlAkte9QD57J4SIhWGjvWymZOs Rw5O1iaLx3k= =vAMu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri <rich.pieri@prescienttech.com> | Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. Prescient Technologies, Inc. | A Stone & Webster Company | I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC | ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 48+ messages in thread
* Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines 1997-02-09 9:34 ` Per Abrahamsen 1997-02-09 14:56 ` Randal Schwartz @ 1997-02-09 16:19 ` Rich Pieri 1997-02-09 22:21 ` Mark Eichin 1 sibling, 1 reply; 48+ messages in thread From: Rich Pieri @ 1997-02-09 16:19 UTC (permalink / raw) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >>>>> "PA" == Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes: PA> Rich Pieri <rich.pieri@PrescientTech.com> writes: >> So tell me, how does this algorithm know that a given quoted "From " >> line in the body of the message is one that should be dequoted? PA> Yes. They all should, if created by the algorithm above. This leads PA> to zero loss of information, unlike the traditional algorithm. Let's try that again: tell me, how does this algorithm know that a given quoted "From " line in the body of the message is one that should be dequoted? How does it distinguish a "From " line it quoted from one that happens to have an identical "quoting" that it did not perform? Put it another way, if the algorithm does not work 100% of the time it should not be used. 99.8% of the time is simply not good enough. At the least it is going to screw up citations. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3a Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBMv35Dp6VRH7BJMxHAQHLgQP/f6ODPWngqg7Ag1gT2T/OLbqWoWTdZwx1 mF6tOZ2n/3l9ofoqIYuhd9/fpehR92QeMYPk5v2L2pOWssMRrJd8BjTyANHqcPEm bEWiXUGoWF4zK0Aas5moHEjyjxYFIMyW6lu08iQHz4oLn4vvW+DMTlLPqa4gEXY2 Dg+E5MomVNQ= =Ys8i -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rich Pieri <rich.pieri@prescienttech.com> | When not in use, Happy Fun Ball Prescient Technologies, Inc. | should be returned to its special A Stone & Webster Company | container and kept under I speak for myself, not PTI or SWEC | refrigeration. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 48+ messages in thread
* Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines 1997-02-09 16:19 ` Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines Rich Pieri @ 1997-02-09 22:21 ` Mark Eichin 1997-02-10 4:44 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 48+ messages in thread From: Mark Eichin @ 1997-02-09 22:21 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding > Let's try that again: tell me, how does this algorithm know that a given > quoted "From " line in the body of the message is one that should be I think what you're missing is that you *don't* just quote ^From lines, you also quote ^>From, iteratively... you have to, it's the only way to do it reliably. So, (xx inserted so the example doesn't get mangled) xxFrom xx>From xx>>From in an actual *message* gets stored as xx>From xx>>From xx>>>From and then the MTA before displaying it strips one > from any >*From line (that's a regexp "kleene" * not a glob *) yielding xxFrom xx>From xx>>From That's the Right Way(tm) to quote From lines. I've *never* seen a mailer actually do that; they all corrupt messages instead, taking only any xxFrom and making it xx>From, then any xx>From and making xxFrom even if it wasn't one it converted. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 48+ messages in thread
* Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines 1997-02-09 22:21 ` Mark Eichin @ 1997-02-10 4:44 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 0 siblings, 0 replies; 48+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1997-02-10 4:44 UTC (permalink / raw) Mark Eichin <eichin@cygnus.com> writes: > xxFrom > xx>From > xx>>From > > in an actual *message* gets stored as > > xx>From > xx>>From > xx>>>From > > and then the MTA before displaying it strips one > from any >*From > line (that's a regexp "kleene" * not a glob *) yielding > > xxFrom > xx>From > xx>>From > > That's the Right Way(tm) to quote From lines. This seems reasonable to me, and it's easy to implement. I've put it on the Quassia Gnus todo list. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@ifi.uio.no * Lars Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 48+ messages in thread
* Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines 1997-02-08 11:50 ` visigoth 1997-02-08 12:32 ` Per Abrahamsen @ 1997-02-10 4:45 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1997-02-10 8:05 ` visigoth 1 sibling, 1 reply; 48+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1997-02-10 4:45 UTC (permalink / raw) visigoth@naiad.fac.cs.cmu.edu writes: > It's my belief, that regardless of what any standard says, Gnus should > accept messages in this broken format. Remember: the goal is to > accept as many formats as possible, even if they're broken, and to > produce only correct output. > > >From ... > some stuff > >From this line is in the message, not a new one > some more stuff > > should never be generated as an mbox file, unless Content-Length is > included in the file, because From lines are quoted with >. This is > *not* ambiguous. The above can only be generated by two sequential > messages. Uhm... But the problem is that "From " lines in some mboxes *aren't* quoted. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@ifi.uio.no * Lars Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 48+ messages in thread
* Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines 1997-02-10 4:45 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1997-02-10 8:05 ` visigoth 1997-02-11 12:38 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 48+ messages in thread From: visigoth @ 1997-02-10 8:05 UTC (permalink / raw) Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@ifi.uio.no> writes: > Uhm... But the problem is that "From " lines in some mboxes *aren't* > quoted. Yes--but those mailboxes should be using a Content-Length header to show how long the message is. You do it one way or the other, not both. If the mboxes are CL-style, you shouldn't be looking at the >From lines at all. If From-lines are being looked at, all lines starting with "From " are from-lines and should be interpreted as the beginning of new messages. BEGIN Rathole-Protocol v1 IHAVE From lines IDONTWANT From lines IHAVE From lines IDONTWANT From lines ... <grin> John. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 48+ messages in thread
* Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines 1997-02-10 8:05 ` visigoth @ 1997-02-11 12:38 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 0 siblings, 0 replies; 48+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1997-02-11 12:38 UTC (permalink / raw) visigoth@naiad.fac.cs.cmu.edu writes: > > Uhm... But the problem is that "From " lines in some mboxes *aren't* > > quoted. > > Yes--but those mailboxes should be using a Content-Length header to > show how long the message is. They should, but some don't. > You do it one way or the other, not both. You can do one, the other, both and neither. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@ifi.uio.no * Lars Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 48+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~1997-02-12 12:52 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 48+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 1997-02-03 15:24 Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines Kai Grossjohann 1997-02-03 16:36 ` Rich Pieri 1997-02-03 20:01 ` visigoth 1997-02-04 0:50 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1997-02-04 12:05 ` Kai Grossjohann 1997-02-04 13:03 ` Bernard.Steiner 1997-02-04 13:10 ` Per Abrahamsen 1997-02-04 13:43 ` Kai Grossjohann 1997-02-04 14:41 ` Bernard.Steiner 1997-02-04 15:23 ` Rich Pieri 1997-02-04 15:31 ` Kai Grossjohann 1997-02-04 10:14 ` dave edmondson 1997-02-04 14:52 ` Rich Pieri 1997-02-05 22:40 ` Michael Huehne 1997-02-05 10:47 ` Kai Grossjohann 1997-02-08 9:25 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1997-02-08 11:50 ` visigoth 1997-02-08 12:32 ` Per Abrahamsen 1997-02-08 16:08 ` Frank D. Cringle 1997-02-08 19:11 ` Steven L Baur 1997-02-09 2:58 ` Rich Pieri 1997-02-09 9:34 ` Per Abrahamsen 1997-02-09 14:56 ` Randal Schwartz 1997-02-09 15:32 ` mbox quoting (was: Re: Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines) Per Abrahamsen 1997-02-10 14:52 ` Rich Pieri 1997-02-10 15:30 ` Per Abrahamsen 1997-02-10 15:45 ` Lars Balker Rasmussen 1997-02-11 9:25 ` Greg Stark 1997-02-11 11:36 ` Per Abrahamsen 1997-02-11 12:52 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1997-02-11 13:44 ` Per Abrahamsen 1997-02-11 18:43 ` Sudish Joseph 1997-02-12 7:35 ` Per Abrahamsen 1997-02-12 12:52 ` Randal Schwartz 1997-02-12 8:47 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1997-02-11 12:57 ` Randal Schwartz 1997-02-11 13:28 ` Per Abrahamsen 1997-02-11 13:33 ` Randal Schwartz 1997-02-11 14:16 ` Per Abrahamsen 1997-02-11 16:13 ` Rich Pieri 1997-02-12 7:28 ` Per Abrahamsen 1997-02-11 15:00 ` Rich Pieri 1997-02-09 16:19 ` Gnus, movemail, POP3, trailing empty lines Rich Pieri 1997-02-09 22:21 ` Mark Eichin 1997-02-10 4:44 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1997-02-10 4:45 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1997-02-10 8:05 ` visigoth 1997-02-11 12:38 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen
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