gnus-ml.el obsolete ?

gnus-ml.el obsolete ?

[Xavier MAILLARD]

I am aware of Kai's speech but I can't figure out in what way gnus-ml is
really usefull for.

In fact to take advantage of this module (and so of the RFC2369), we
*MUST* edit an article to feed the gnus-ml functions.

I mean we *CAN'T* take advantage of the features in the summary mode
because gnus-ml is scanning the RFC2369 'List-*' headers. 

So if I want to get help about a list (taking advantage of List-Help RFC
header), I get only 2 choices :
 1) Enter an article to get the different headers
 2) Do a big hack to have them (headers) in the sum.

I think those 2 choices are bad because to unsubscribe from a ML I
generally don't want to enter an old article to achieve the task. And
then I don't think that doing some nasty hacks in my .gnus file is a
good solution.

What are your opinions about this?

I'm scared I will (again) make some people nervous but I want to know
how people handle this.

I know one could (still) be happy with the way it works for instance,
but I really don't :)

Lastly, this post is not intented to be in any opposition with gnus
people (whose work is really big and great) but as I love gnus I want to
try to contribute and try to improve/understand/whatever it.

Cheers,

zeDek

Re: gnus-ml.el obsolete ?

[Reiner Steib]

On Wed, Oct 16 2002, Xavier MAILLARD wrote:

> So if I want to get help about a list (taking advantage of List-Help RFC
> header), I get only 2 choices :
>  1) Enter an article to get the different headers
>  2) Do a big hack to have them (headers) in the sum.

I entered a group with mailing list and had no problem to run `M-x
gnus-mailing-list-help RET' or `M-x gnus-mailing-list-unsubscribe RET'
without any prior configuration (from the summary buffer).

I don't see your point.

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo--- PGP key available via WWW   http://rsteib.home.pages.de/

Re: gnus-ml.el obsolete ?

[Simon Josefsson]

Xavier MAILLARD <zedek@gnu-rox.org> writes:

> In fact to take advantage of this module (and so of the RFC2369), we
> *MUST* edit an article to feed the gnus-ml functions.

The mailing list manager should edit it.

> I mean we *CAN'T* take advantage of the features in the summary mode
> because gnus-ml is scanning the RFC2369 'List-*' headers. 

The whole point of gnus-ml is scanning RFC 2369 headers, if I
understand it correctly.  If the mailing list manager doesn't support
RFC 2369, it isn't useful.

> So if I want to get help about a list (taking advantage of List-Help RFC
> header), I get only 2 choices :
>  1) Enter an article to get the different headers
>  2) Do a big hack to have them (headers) in the sum.

3) Change to a mailing list server that supports RFC 2369.

Re: gnus-ml.el obsolete ?

[Xavier MAILLARD]

Reiner Steib <4uce.02.r.steib@gmx.net> disait récemment que :

> On Wed, Oct 16 2002, Xavier MAILLARD wrote:
>
>> So if I want to get help about a list (taking advantage of List-Help RFC
>> header), I get only 2 choices :
>>  1) Enter an article to get the different headers
>>  2) Do a big hack to have them (headers) in the sum.
>
> I entered a group with mailing list and had no problem to run `M-x
> gnus-mailing-list-help RET' or `M-x gnus-mailing-list-unsubscribe RET'
> without any prior configuration (from the summary buffer).

The problem is you should had have edited an article to get this worked.
For ie, if I have subscribed to the debian-user ML, to get help from the
ML, I have to enter an article and then I'm able to do a 'M-x
gnus-mailing-list-help RET'. This is not what I want to do. I want to be
able to get help from the summary without having to enter an article.

bye, zeDek

Re: gnus-ml.el obsolete ?

[Steve Youngs]

|--==> "SJ" == Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes:

  SJ> The whole point of gnus-ml is scanning RFC 2369 headers, if I
  SJ> understand it correctly.  If the mailing list manager doesn't
  SJ> support RFC 2369, it isn't useful.

It's just a pity that _this_ list either doesn't support, or isn't
configured to support those headers.

  SJ> 3) Change to a mailing list server that supports RFC 2369.

Any chance Ding could switch over to Mailman?

-- 
|---<Steve Youngs>---------------<GnuPG KeyID: 10D5C9C5>---|
|            XEmacs - It's not just an editor.             |
|                    It's a way of life.                   |
|------------------------------------<youngs@xemacs.org>---|

Re: gnus-ml.el obsolete ?

[Steve Youngs]

|--==> "XM" == Xavier MAILLARD <zedek@gnu-rox.org> writes:

  XM> Reiner Steib <4uce.02.r.steib@gmx.net> disait récemment que :
  >>I entered a group with mailing list and had no problem to run `M-x
  >>gnus-mailing-list-help RET' or `M-x gnus-mailing-list-unsubscribe
  >>RET' without any prior configuration (from the summary buffer).

  XM> The problem is you should had have edited an article to get this
  XM> worked.  For ie, if I have subscribed to the debian-user ML, to
  XM> get help from the ML, I have to enter an article and then I'm
  XM> able to do a 'M-x gnus-mailing-list-help RET'. This is not what
  XM> I want to do. I want to be able to get help from the summary
  XM> without having to enter an article.

You must be referring to the 'group' buffer, because you _can_ do this
from the 'summary' buffer.

What would be nice is if you could 'C-u M-x gnus-mailing-list-foo'
from the group buffer.  Perhaps gnus-ml.el could be extended to store
the content of the LIST-* headers somewhere.  Then I'd want to be able
to specify these values in gnus-parameters.  You could then even turn
on gnus-mailing-list-* for lists that don't support those LIST-*
headers.  Hmm, I *do* like the sound of that...

-- 
|---<Steve Youngs>---------------<GnuPG KeyID: 10D5C9C5>---|
|            XEmacs - It's not just an editor.             |
|                    It's a way of life.                   |
|------------------------------------<youngs@xemacs.org>---|

Re: gnus-ml.el obsolete ?

[Kai Großjohann]

Xavier MAILLARD <zedek@gnu-rox.org> writes:

> The problem is you should had have edited an article to get this worked.
> For ie, if I have subscribed to the debian-user ML, to get help from the
> ML, I have to enter an article and then I'm able to do a 'M-x
> gnus-mailing-list-help RET'. This is not what I want to do. I want to be
> able to get help from the summary without having to enter an article.

Do you really mean "edit"?  Or do you mean "show", or "enter", or
"display"?

If the latter, then I'm sure it's possible to have gnus-ml.el
auto-show an article for you so that it can extract the headers from
there.

Now I have some idea why you think that group parameters are better.

Maybe one possibility is to have gnus-ml.el act on showing every
article, and if it contains the right headers, then group parameters
are automatically added with the right values.  Then the main
commands would use the values from the group parameters.  Then users
can add their own group parameters for groups without the headers,
and everything will work just fine.

How about that?

kai
-- 
~/.signature is: umop ap!sdn    (Frank Nobis)

Re: gnus-ml.el obsolete ?

[Xavier MAILLARD]

Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) disait récemment que :

> Do you really mean "edit"?  Or do you mean "show", or "enter", or
> "display"?

Depends on what you mean by each of the terms :)

> If the latter, then I'm sure it's possible to have gnus-ml.el
> auto-show an article for you so that it can extract the headers from
> there.

In fact this is what I mean :)

> Now I have some idea why you think that group parameters are better.

At least you understand. Maybe my english is not too understable :) 

> Maybe one possibility is to have gnus-ml.el act on showing every
> article, and if it contains the right headers, then group parameters
> are automatically added with the right values.  Then the main
> commands would use the values from the group parameters.  Then users
> can add their own group parameters for groups without the headers,
> and everything will work just fine.

Sounds good to me and seems to be a good idea but as I'm not really familiar with Gnus
internal, I'm confused with how to do that. I don't want to do kludges :)

Btw, Is there any "Oort Gnus API" somewhere ??

Cheers,

zeDek

Re: gnus-ml.el obsolete ?

[Xavier MAILLARD]

Steve Youngs <youngs@xemacs.org> disait récemment que :

> |--==> "XM" == Xavier MAILLARD <zedek@gnu-rox.org> writes:
>
>   XM> Reiner Steib <4uce.02.r.steib@gmx.net> disait récemment que :
>   >>I entered a group with mailing list and had no problem to run `M-x
>   >>gnus-mailing-list-help RET' or `M-x gnus-mailing-list-unsubscribe
>   >>RET' without any prior configuration (from the summary buffer).
>
>   XM> The problem is you should had have edited an article to get this
>   XM> worked.  For ie, if I have subscribed to the debian-user ML, to
>   XM> get help from the ML, I have to enter an article and then I'm
>   XM> able to do a 'M-x gnus-mailing-list-help RET'. This is not what
>   XM> I want to do. I want to be able to get help from the summary
>   XM> without having to enter an article.
>
> You must be referring to the 'group' buffer, because you _can_ do this
> from the 'summary' buffer.

Hmm, I think I don't have the good terms to describe what I want :(

> What would be nice is if you could 'C-u M-x gnus-mailing-list-foo'
> from the group buffer.  Perhaps gnus-ml.el could be extended to store
> the content of the LIST-* headers somewhere.  Then I'd want to be able
> to specify these values in gnus-parameters.  You could then even turn
> on gnus-mailing-list-* for lists that don't support those LIST-*
> headers.  Hmm, I *do* like the sound of that...

This is an idea. I guess we'd better add the right parameters to the
gnus-parameters so the user can customize them and/or the gnus-ml can
add them automagically on scanning the headers as Kai said.

zeDek

Re: gnus-ml.el obsolete ?

[Andreas Fuchs]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 756 bytes --]

On 2002-10-17, Kai Großjohann <Kai.Grossjohann@cs.uni-dortmund.de> wrote:
> Maybe one possibility is to have gnus-ml.el act on showing every
> article, and if it contains the right headers, then group parameters
> are automatically added with the right values.  Then the main
> commands would use the values from the group parameters.  Then users
> can add their own group parameters for groups without the headers,
> and everything will work just fine.
> 
> How about that?

Uh, isn't that what gnus-mailing-list-insinuate is supposed to do?

BTW: this function should also add the "subscribed" param.

-- 
Andreas Fuchs, <asf@acm.org>, asf@jabber.at, antifuchs
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Re: gnus-ml.el obsolete ?

[Xavier MAILLARD]

Andreas Fuchs <asf@void.at> disait récemment que :

> On 2002-10-17, Kai Großjohann <Kai.Grossjohann@cs.uni-dortmund.de> wrote:
>> Maybe one possibility is to have gnus-ml.el act on showing every
>> article, and if it contains the right headers, then group parameters
>> are automatically added with the right values.  Then the main
>> commands would use the values from the group parameters.  Then users
>> can add their own group parameters for groups without the headers,
>> and everything will work just fine.
>> 
>> How about that?
>
> Uh, isn't that what gnus-mailing-list-insinuate is supposed to do?
>
> BTW: this function should also add the "subscribed" param.

Damn ! You right :)

Re: gnus-ml.el obsolete ?

[Kai Großjohann]

Andreas Fuchs <asf@void.at> writes:

> On 2002-10-17, Kai Großjohann <Kai.Grossjohann@cs.uni-dortmund.de> wrote:
>> Maybe one possibility is to have gnus-ml.el act on showing every
>> article, and if it contains the right headers, then group parameters
>> are automatically added with the right values.  Then the main
>> commands would use the values from the group parameters.  Then users
>> can add their own group parameters for groups without the headers,
>> and everything will work just fine.
>> 
>> How about that?
>
> Uh, isn't that what gnus-mailing-list-insinuate is supposed to do?

Cool.  Is it called automatically at some point?

Is there a way to use the group parameters it sets?

kai
-- 
~/.signature is: umop ap!sdn    (Frank Nobis)

Re: gnus-ml.el obsolete ?

[Andreas Fuchs]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 865 bytes --]

Today, Kai GroÃ.johann <Kai.Grossjohann@cs.uni-dortmund.de> wrote:
>> Uh, isn't that what gnus-mailing-list-insinuate is supposed to do?
> 
> Cool.  Is it called automatically at some point?

Hm, if it finds that to-list is set, it gives a confusing message. But
if that's no concern to you, put it into an article selection hook
(don't know what its name was anymore).

> Is there a way to use the group parameters it sets?

Argh. I just saw that it only sets the to-list parameter and one more,
and that is it. I think now I understand Xavier's point. (-:

We really should rework gnus-ml to use group parameters and not the
stuff in the *Article* buffer (plus have an auto-insinuation function
for that).

-- 
Andreas Fuchs, <asf@acm.org>, asf@jabber.at, antifuchs
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Re: gnus-ml.el obsolete ?

[Kai Großjohann]

Andreas Fuchs <asf@void.at> writes:

> We really should rework gnus-ml to use group parameters and not the
> stuff in the *Article* buffer (plus have an auto-insinuation function
> for that).

Exactly.  Any takers?

kai
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Re: gnus-ml.el obsolete ?

[Xavier MAILLARD]

Xavier MAILLARD <zedek@gnu-rox.org> disait récemment que :

> Andreas Fuchs <asf@void.at> disait récemment que :
>
>> On 2002-10-17, Kai Großjohann <Kai.Grossjohann@cs.uni-dortmund.de> wrote:
>>> Maybe one possibility is to have gnus-ml.el act on showing every
>>> article, and if it contains the right headers, then group parameters
>>> are automatically added with the right values.  Then the main
>>> commands would use the values from the group parameters.  Then users
>>> can add their own group parameters for groups without the headers,
>>> and everything will work just fine.
>>> 
>>> How about that?
>>
>> Uh, isn't that what gnus-mailing-list-insinuate is supposed to do?
>>
>> BTW: this function should also add the "subscribed" param.
>
> Damn ! You right :)

Hum I had a look into it but even trying to activate it on entering the
summary buffer, I can't make it works the way I want :(

I try to add a hook to the gnus-summary-mode-hook but I had a warning
telling me that no original article buffer was present.

Bypassing this, I can enter and show some messages and then the
gnus-mailing-list-insinuate is aware of the headers.

Sounds weird to me that we have to display a message before being able
to deal with the ML stuff. Maybe I'm wrong but it's really not natural
for me to proceed that way.

Cheers,

zeDek

Re: gnus-ml.el obsolete ?

[Xavier MAILLARD]

Andreas Fuchs <asf@void.at> disait récemment que :

> Today, Kai GroÃ.johann <Kai.Grossjohann@cs.uni-dortmund.de> wrote:
>>> Uh, isn't that what gnus-mailing-list-insinuate is supposed to do?
>> 
>> Cool.  Is it called automatically at some point?
>
> Hm, if it finds that to-list is set, it gives a confusing message. But
> if that's no concern to you, put it into an article selection hook
> (don't know what its name was anymore).

Hum I need some explanations about one thing. What do you call an
'article' and what is a 'message' for you please ?

I think I am quite confused with all the gnus (huh?) specific
word. Maybe that's why I'm not really clear when I try to explain things :)

>> Is there a way to use the group parameters it sets?
>
> Argh. I just saw that it only sets the to-list parameter and one more,
> and that is it. I think now I understand Xavier's point. (-:
>
> We really should rework gnus-ml to use group parameters and not the
> stuff in the *Article* buffer (plus have an auto-insinuation function
> for that).

Ah !!! :) Sorry for my bad english speak skills. Maybe I am not very
clear when I try to explain things :)

Cheers,

zeDek

Re: gnus-ml.el obsolete ?

[Andreas Fuchs]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1093 bytes --]

Today, Xavier MAILLARD <zedek@gnu-rox.org> wrote:
>> Hm, if it finds that to-list is set, it gives a confusing
>> message. But if that's no concern to you, put it into an article
>> selection hook (don't know what its name was anymore).
> 
> Hum I need some explanations about one thing. What do you call an
> 'article' and what is a 'message' for you please ?

Ah, the Article is the thing that comes up in the *Article* buffer when
you hit RET or SPC in the *Summary* buffer. A "message" in this context
means the thing that comes up in the minibuffer when you use the
`message' function from elisp. (-:

> I think I am quite confused with all the gnus (huh?) specific
> word. Maybe that's why I'm not really clear when I try to explain
> things :)

Yup, the vocabulary is tough. But I think learning it is worth it,
because you can then talk about many things which are nearly the same,
in an unambiguous way. (-:

Happy hacking,
-- 
Andreas Fuchs, <asf@acm.org>, asf@jabber.at, antifuchs
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Re: gnus-ml.el obsolete ?

[Kai Großjohann]

Xavier MAILLARD <zedek@gnu-rox.org> writes:

> Bypassing this, I can enter and show some messages and then the
> gnus-mailing-list-insinuate is aware of the headers.
>
> Sounds weird to me that we have to display a message before being able
> to deal with the ML stuff. Maybe I'm wrong but it's really not natural
> for me to proceed that way.

Well, since the data is in the message headers of the articles, it
makes some kind of sense.  Note that with the proposed change, you
only have to enter a message once, and then they will be in the group
parameters for many years (for that mailing list).

But it would be even better if it was not necessary to display an
article in the first place.

kai
-- 
~/.signature is: umop ap!sdn    (Frank Nobis)

Re: gnus-ml.el obsolete ?

[Xavier MAILLARD]

Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) disait récemment que :

> Xavier MAILLARD <zedek@gnu-rox.org> writes:
>
>> Bypassing this, I can enter and show some messages and then the
>> gnus-mailing-list-insinuate is aware of the headers.
>>
>> Sounds weird to me that we have to display a message before being able
>> to deal with the ML stuff. Maybe I'm wrong but it's really not natural
>> for me to proceed that way.
>
> Well, since the data is in the message headers of the articles, it
> makes some kind of sense.  Note that with the proposed change, you
> only have to enter a message once, and then they will be in the group
> parameters for many years (for that mailing list).
>
> But it would be even better if it was not necessary to display an
> article in the first place.

Agree with that. In fact the way I want it to work :)

Cdt,

zeDek

Re: gnus-ml.el obsolete ?

[Clemens Fischer]

Steve Youngs <youngs@xemacs.org>:

> Any chance Ding could switch over to Mailman?

i'm surprised dings list software doesn't provide for the addition of
those RFC headers.  or is it just not configured?

clemens