From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.emacs.gnus.general/80311 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Tim Cross Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel,gmane.emacs.gnus.general Subject: Re: smtp crap Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 09:41:31 +1100 Message-ID: References: <8739f4kzp3.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <87ipo0p1bc.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <58C87CB9F44943A7BBE78F2D6B62A850@us.oracle.com> <83botsf06d.fsf@gnu.org> <83k48cxj85.fsf@gnu.org> <20FFD44DE7DF42C78FDDA3EF06397A78@us.oracle.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1318372907 10299 80.91.229.12 (11 Oct 2011 22:41:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 22:41:47 +0000 (UTC) Cc: cyd@stupidchicken.com, ding@gnus.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, Stefan Monnier , PJ Weisberg , larsi@gnus.org, Eli Zaretskii , miles@gnu.org To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Oct 12 00:41:40 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RDl11-0005Pz-J6 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 12 Oct 2011 00:41:39 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:46865 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RDl11-0004Bk-65 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 11 Oct 2011 18:41:39 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:56790) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RDl0y-0004BX-DR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 11 Oct 2011 18:41:37 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RDl0x-0001xb-7t for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 11 Oct 2011 18:41:36 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:37172) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RDl0u-0001xF-6q; Tue, 11 Oct 2011 18:41:32 -0400 Original-Received: by iaen33 with SMTP id n33so103519iae.0 for ; Tue, 11 Oct 2011 15:41:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Sh2/zXkFeFkKnU0v/4MA8Dl4lD/E4mxH7uA/c215KZM=; b=m1UjpseuFh6pF04bwxnnRLiSk7ia+DF7jioiLLWGQhXb6RWoheVdJnVwOGZ/oZbvPe W6lhhZ2HU2CSWk0bK/ouCyVTGJwlfQm2L230mgtvLnBio7kPHs15gQfGDUQvrh2Azgup kgqHzpsrasKzLFDjdbM5mdaO5hBBaMCw4LfrM= Original-Received: by 10.42.72.194 with SMTP id p2mr30076536icj.0.1318372891294; Tue, 11 Oct 2011 15:41:31 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.231.12.67 with HTTP; Tue, 11 Oct 2011 15:41:31 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:144927 gmane.emacs.gnus.general:80311 Archived-At: On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 9:00 AM, Drew Adams wrote: >> and please, DO NOT jump through all sorts of hoops with -Q to enable >> 'special' configuration settings to exist - the whole idea of -Q is >> that it is a base, well known and repeatable configuration. Once you >> start making exceptions that whole premise is lost. >> >> Using -Q should allow me to have exactly the same configuration as >> someone else who also runs -Q - it should not be 'the same >> configuration except for ....' > > 1+ > >> If this means that users cannot submit bugs using emacs as their >> MUA when running -Q it does not mean we need to hack at custom or make >> exceptions - it means that email is not the right solution for >> submitting bug messages when running under -Q. > > I acknowledge your "IF", Tim, but I disagree that we should accept a situ= ation > where users cannot send bug reports using email. =A0Of course, to do so t= hey need > _some_ way of sending email, but it does not follow that they need to use= Emacs > as that way. =A0They should be able to compose the bug report in Emacs an= d send it > any way they want and can. > OK, I'll try to clarify. Emacs bug reporting should not prevent people from using another MUA to submit a bug report and it may even facilitate doing so if someone wants to implement such support. However, I think it is quite reasonable if, while running under -Q, you cannot use emacs as the MUA to submit the bug report. This has been the situation when running under -Q for anyone who does not use a local MTA for as long as I can remember. If the arguments that local MTAs are seldom configured and most people now require smtpmail etc, are correct, then it is reasonable to assume this has been the case for a majority of users for some time and not something new. Keep things simple and don't try to be too clever. All that is really needed is for emacs to dump the relevant bug report data into a text file and inform the user where tthis text file is and where it should be sent to report a bug. This reflects a process which many of us who do not use a local MTA or do not use emacs as our MUA have used for years. One point I totally agree with is the one you have been making about not forcing people down the mail configuration path. By all means, assist people as much as possible once they choose that path, but don't hurd them down it. This is why I raise the question concerning numbers of people who actually use emacs as their MUA. It feels very much like decisions being made based on personal experience and an implicit assumption that an individuals personal experience is representative of the majority of users - a common error we really should be more aware of by now IMO. If I find time, just for interest, I'm, going to try and do some analysis of emacs-devel mail headers and see if I can get some stats concerning MUAs being used. My ad hoc random non-scientific sampling tends to indicate a lower number than perhaps many expect/assume. Tim --=20 Tim Cross