auto auto-expirable

auto auto-expirable

[Katsumi Yamaoka]

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The expirable mark of a read article if any is stripped when it
is copied or moved to the group in which to do not automatically
mark read articles as expirable.  That is good.

However, it will not be marked as expirable when copying or moving
a read article (that has not been marked as expirable) to the group
in which to automatically mark read articles as expirable.  So,
such an article will never be expired unless it is read.  Actually
I have a number of such articles in the auto-expirable groups.

The attached patch solves it, i.e., read articles copied or moved
to auto-expirable group are automatically marked as expirable.
Does anyone see any harm with this change?   Though I will not
commit it until the next release anyway.


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--- gnus-sum.el~	2009-02-05 09:09:28 +0000
+++ gnus-sum.el	2009-05-29 09:45:03 +0000
@@ -9753,10 +9753,8 @@
 				       (list (cdr art-group)))))
 
 	    ;; See whether the article is to be put in the cache.
-	    (let ((marks (if (gnus-group-auto-expirable-p to-group)
-			     gnus-article-mark-lists
-			   (delete '(expirable . expire)
-				   (copy-sequence gnus-article-mark-lists))))
+	    (let ((marks (delete '(expirable . expire)
+				 (copy-sequence gnus-article-mark-lists)))
 		  (to-article (cdr art-group)))
 
 	      ;; Enter the article into the cache in the new group,
@@ -9796,6 +9794,15 @@
 		       to-group (cdar marks) (list to-article) info)))
 		  (setq marks (cdr marks)))
 
+		(when (gnus-group-auto-expirable-p to-group)
+		  ;; Mark this article as expirable
+		  (push 'expire to-marks)
+		  (when (equal to-group gnus-newsgroup-name)
+		    (push to-article gnus-newsgroup-expirable))
+		  ;; Copy the expirable mark to other group.
+		  (gnus-add-marked-articles
+		   to-group 'expire (list to-article) info))
+
 		(gnus-request-set-mark
 		 to-group (list (list (list to-article) 'add to-marks))))
 

Re: auto auto-expirable

[Didier Verna]

Katsumi Yamaoka <yamaoka@jpl.org> wrote:

> The attached patch solves it, i.e., read articles copied or moved to
> auto-expirable group are automatically marked as expirable. Does
> anyone see any harm with this change? Though I will not commit it
> until the next release anyway.

FWIW, I'm in your situation as well and I think this is a very good
thing.

-- 
European Lisp Workshop, July 6th, Genova, Italy: http://elw.bknr.net/2009

Scientific site:   http://www.lrde.epita.fr/~didier
Music (Jazz) site: http://www.didierverna.com

Re: auto auto-expirable

[Mike Kupfer]

>>>>> "KY" == Katsumi Yamaoka <yamaoka@jpl.org> writes:

KY> The attached patch solves it, i.e., read articles copied or moved to
KY> auto-expirable group are automatically marked as expirable.  Does
KY> anyone see any harm with this change?

Hi, I'm not sure I understand the implications of your proposal.  My
current email workflow is a mixture of MH-E and Gnus, all using MH
folders.  I'm on several high-traffic mailing lists, so I use a
filtering script to assign incoming mail to various folders, which I
read with Gnus.

Sometimes the scripts assign a message to the wrong folder.  Currently,
I just save the message to the correct folder and then deal with it
while reading that other folder.  

Now, if I understand your proposal, it sounds like I would need to
remember to clear the "expirable" mark before saving the message.  If
that's correct, it seems awkward and easy to forget to do.  So I'd
prefer to keep the current behavior.  Perhaps there should be a
customization flag to control the behavior?

cheers,
mike

Re: auto auto-expirable

[Didier Verna]

Mike Kupfer <mike.kupfer@xemacs.org> wrote:

> Sometimes the scripts assign a message to the wrong folder. Currently,
> I just save the message to the correct folder and then deal with it
> while reading that other folder.
>
> Now, if I understand your proposal, it sounds like I would need to
> remember to clear the "expirable" mark before saving the message. If
> that's correct, it seems awkward and easy to forget to do.

  When I face such situations, I usually move the article to the correct
group *before* reading it, so Katsumi's change would not affect you. In
the cases when the article is displayed for whatever reason, I also
usually M c it (before reading it), move it, and again read it from the
correct group.

-- 
European Lisp Workshop, July 6th, Genova, Italy: http://elw.bknr.net/2009

Scientific site:   http://www.lrde.epita.fr/~didier
Music (Jazz) site: http://www.didierverna.com

Re: auto auto-expirable

[Katsumi Yamaoka]

>>>>> Didier Verna wrote:
> Mike Kupfer <mike.kupfer@xemacs.org> wrote:

>> Sometimes the scripts assign a message to the wrong folder. Currently,
>> I just save the message to the correct folder and then deal with it
>> while reading that other folder.
>>
>> Now, if I understand your proposal, it sounds like I would need to
>> remember to clear the "expirable" mark before saving the message. If
>> that's correct, it seems awkward and easy to forget to do.

>   When I face such situations, I usually move the article to the correct
> group *before* reading it, so Katsumi's change would not affect you. In
> the cases when the article is displayed for whatever reason, I also
> usually M c it (before reading it), move it, and again read it from the
> correct group.

I'll do it like Didier, but I can agree with Mike.  Maybe it
will be better not to change the present behavior by default.
So, I'm trying to make it customizable by the group parameter
`auto-auto-expire'.  It also provides the variable
`gnus-auto-auto-expirable-newsgroups' as well; you can use it
like `gnus-auto-expirable-newsgroups'.  Probably I'll use the
same value for both the variables.

But the greatest difficulty is to summarize the document briefly
in the first lines of the doc-strings:

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
(gnus-define-group-parameter
 auto-auto-expire
 :type bool
 :function gnus-group-auto-auto-expirable-p
 :function-document
 "Check whether articles that havie been read are automatically marked as expirable when moved to or copied to GROUP."
 :variable gnus-auto-auto-expirable-newsgroups
 :variable-default nil
 :variable-document
 "Groups in which articles that have been read are automatically marked as expirable when moved to or copied to there.
If non-nil, this should be a regexp that should match all groups in
which to perform auto auto-expiry.  If this is nil or the group name
does not match this, the expirable marks of articles that have been
read will remain (not be set forcibly) when they are moved to or
copied to the group in which to perform auto-expiry.  This only makes
sense for mail groups."
 :variable-group nnmail-expire
 :variable-type '(choice (const nil)
			 regexp)
 :parameter-type '(const :tag "Automatic Auto-Expire" t)
 :parameter-document
 "Article that have been read will be automatically marked as expirable when moved to or copied to this group if this group is set to perform auto-expiry.")
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

Could anyone make it cool?

Re: auto auto-expirable

[Tim Landscheidt]

Katsumi Yamaoka <yamaoka@jpl.org> wrote:

>>> Sometimes the scripts assign a message to the wrong folder. Currently,
>>> I just save the message to the correct folder and then deal with it
>>> while reading that other folder.

>>> Now, if I understand your proposal, it sounds like I would need to
>>> remember to clear the "expirable" mark before saving the message. If
>>> that's correct, it seems awkward and easy to forget to do.

>>   When I face such situations, I usually move the article to the correct
>> group *before* reading it, so Katsumi's change would not affect you. In
>> the cases when the article is displayed for whatever reason, I also
>> usually M c it (before reading it), move it, and again read it from the
>> correct group.

> I'll do it like Didier, but I can agree with Mike.  Maybe it
> will be better not to change the present behavior by default.
> [...]

I *think* I do it like Didier, but I don't know if I don't
do it sometimes like Mike :-). With the danger of losing
mail, I'd prefer a "Are you really sure?" dialog, perhaps
similar to scroll-left & Co. if technically possible.

  In the end, moving a mail only to have it expired seems
not a very common thing to do.

Tim

Re: auto auto-expirable

[Mike Kupfer]

I don't have much experience writing Emacs docstrings, but FWIW here's
an attempt to tighten the wording.  Thanks for making this customizable.

>  :function gnus-group-auto-auto-expirable-p
>  :function-document
>  "Check whether articles that havie been read are automatically marked as expirable when moved to or copied to GROUP."

   "Indicate whether articles that are marked expirable should retain that mark when moved or copied to GROUP."

>  :variable gnus-auto-auto-expirable-newsgroups
>  :variable-default nil
>  :variable-document
>  "Groups in which articles that have been read are automatically marked as expirable when moved to or copied to there.

   "Articles that are moved or copied into these groups will retain the expirable mark.

> If non-nil, this should be a regexp that should match all groups in
> which to perform auto auto-expiry.  If this is nil or the group name
> does not match this, the expirable marks of articles that have been
> read will remain (not be set forcibly) when they are moved to or
> copied to the group in which to perform auto-expiry.  This only makes
> sense for mail groups."

Should that be "If this is nil... the expirable marks of articles will
be cleared"?

>  :variable-group nnmail-expire
>  :variable-type '(choice (const nil)
> 			 regexp)
>  :parameter-type '(const :tag "Automatic Auto-Expire" t)
>  :parameter-document
>  "Article that have been read will be automatically marked as expirable when moved to or copied to this group if this group is set to perform auto-expiry.")

   "Articles that have the expirable mark will retain that mark if moved or copied into a matching group, assuming the group does auto-expiry."

cheers,
mike

Re: auto auto-expirable

[Katsumi Yamaoka]

>>>>> Mike Kupfer wrote:
> I don't have much experience writing Emacs docstrings, but FWIW here's
> an attempt to tighten the wording.  Thanks for making this customizable.

>>  :function-document
>    "Indicate whether articles that are marked expirable should retain that mark when moved or copied to GROUP."
>>  :variable-document
>    "Articles that are moved or copied into these groups will retain the expirable mark.

Thank you for the improvement.  That's ok but the best is to make
the first line say what it is in the length of 80-column or less
because `C-h f' or `C-h v' displays it.

>> If non-nil, this should be a regexp that should match all groups in
>> which to perform auto auto-expiry.  If this is nil or the group name
[...]

> Should that be "If this is nil... the expirable marks of articles will
> be cleared"?

That's good.  However, I got to think the `auto-auto-expire' group
parameter is overkill.

>>  :parameter-document
>    "Articles that have the expirable mark will retain that mark if moved or copied into a matching group, assuming the group does auto-expiry."

BTW, here is another solution, that lets Gnus behave as before
even if the patch that I made has been applied.  Though it might
make moving and copying of articles slow if the target group
contains 100,000 articles.  Isn't it acceptable?

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
(defun my-gnus-dont-auto-auto-expiry (action header from to method)
  "Don't make unexpirable article expirable automatically when copied or\
moved to group in which to perform auto-expiry."
  (let (article expirable)
    (when (and (memq action '(copy move))
	       (gnus-group-auto-expirable-p to)
	       (setq article (mail-header-number header))
	       (not (memq article gnus-newsgroup-expirable))
	       (setq expirable
		     (assq 'expire (car (nthcdr 3 (gnus-get-info to))))))
      (setcdr expirable
	      (gnus-compress-sequence
	       (delq (cdr (symbol-value 'art-group))
		     (gnus-uncompress-sequence (cdr expirable))))))))

(add-hook 'gnus-summary-article-move-hook 'my-gnus-dont-auto-auto-expiry)
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

Otherwise, how about the user option like the following?
It never slows Gnus, though it doesn't provide the means to
customize the behavior group by group.

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
(defcustom gnus-inhibit-auto-auto-expiry nil
  "If non-nil, don't do auto auto-expiry when moving or copying articles.
`Auto auto-expiry' means that read articles, even if they haven't been
marked as expirable, will be automatically marked as expirable when
moved or copied to a group in which to perform auto-expiry."
  :version "23.2"
  :group 'gnus-summary
  :type 'boolean)
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

Re: auto auto-expirable

[Katsumi Yamaoka]

>>>>> Katsumi Yamaoka wrote:
> the first line say what it is in the length of 80-column or less
> because `C-h f' or `C-h v' displays it.

Sorry, it should be:

because `M-x apropos' displays it.

Re: auto auto-expirable

[Mike Kupfer]

I like the gnus-inhibit-auto-auto-expiry user option.

>>>>> "KY" == Katsumi Yamaoka <yamaoka@jpl.org> writes:

KY> It never slows Gnus, though it doesn't provide the means to
KY> customize the behavior group by group.

For my purposes at least, that's not a problem.  I don't expect to
customize the behavior on a per-group basis.

KY> BTW, here is another solution, that lets Gnus behave as before even
KY> if the patch that I made has been applied.  Though it might make
KY> moving and copying of articles slow if the target group contains
KY> 100,000 articles.  Isn't it acceptable?

I could certainly live with a hook like this, especially since you've
written it for me :-), though I think I'd prefer the
gnus-inhibit-auto-auto-expiry user option.

cheers,
mike

Re: auto auto-expirable

[Tim Landscheidt]

Katsumi Yamaoka <yamaoka@jpl.org> wrote:

> [...]
> Otherwise, how about the user option like the following?
> It never slows Gnus, though it doesn't provide the means to
> customize the behavior group by group.

> --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
> (defcustom gnus-inhibit-auto-auto-expiry nil
>   "If non-nil, don't do auto auto-expiry when moving or copying articles.
> `Auto auto-expiry' means that read articles, even if they haven't been
> marked as expirable, will be automatically marked as expirable when
> moved or copied to a group in which to perform auto-expiry."
>   :version "23.2"
>   :group 'gnus-summary
>   :type 'boolean)
> --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

I like that, provided a changed default :-). I think the
proposed behaviour, while useful for some, is counterintui-
tive. IMHO one doesn't expect marks to change by a simple
copying/moving.

  Especially, since it requires a group change when you want
to archive a mail in a auto-expirable group: Consider moving
a) a mail to be archived and b) a mail to be auto-expired.
With current Gnus setup, you read mail a) and move it, and
read mail b), set the expirable mark and move it. With your
patch, while handling mail b) gets simpler, you would have
to tick mail a), move it, change to the destination group
and mark it as read.

Tim

Re: auto auto-expirable

[Katsumi Yamaoka]

> Katsumi Yamaoka <yamaoka@jpl.org> wrote:

>> (defcustom gnus-inhibit-auto-auto-expiry nil
>>   "If non-nil, don't do auto auto-expiry when moving or copying articles.
>> `Auto auto-expiry' means that read articles, even if they haven't been
>> marked as expirable, will be automatically marked as expirable when
>> moved or copied to a group in which to perform auto-expiry."
>>   :version "23.2"
>>   :group 'gnus-summary
>>   :type 'boolean)

Thanks all for following up.  After all I've installed the following
user option and the code in the Gnus trunk.  This does not change
the present behavior by default.

(defcustom gnus-mark-copied-or-moved-articles-as-expirable nil
  "If non-nil, mark articles copied or moved to auto-expire group as expirable.
If nil, the expirable marks will be unchanged except that the marks
will be removed when copying or moving articles to a group that has
not turned auto-expire on.  If non-nil, articles that have been read
will be marked as expirable when being copied or moved to a group in
which auto-expire is turned on."
  :version "23.2"
  :type 'boolean
  :group 'gnus-summary-marks)

The relevant documents:

,---- GNUS-NEWS ----
| * Miscellaneous changes
| [...]
| ** You can set `gnus-mark-copied-or-moved-articles-as-expirable' to a
| non-`nil' value so that articles that have been read may be marked as
| expirable automatically when copying or moving them to a group that has
| auto-expire turned on.  The default is `nil' and copying and moving of
| articles behave as before; i.e., the expirable marks will be unchanged
| except that the marks will be removed when copying or moving articles to
| a group that has not turned auto-expire on.  *Note Expiring Mail::.
`----

,---- (info "(gnus)Expiring Mail") ----
| [...]
|    The expirable marks of articles will be removed when copying or
| moving them to a group in which auto-expire is not turned on.  This is
| for preventing articles from being expired unintentionally.  On the
| other hand, to a group that has turned auto-expire on, the expirable
| marks of articles that are copied or moved will not be changed by
| default.  I.e., when copying or moving to such a group, articles that
| were expirable will be left expirable and ones that were not expirable
| will not be marked as expirable.  So, even though in auto-expire
| groups, some articles will never get expired (unless you read them
| again).  If you don't side with that behavior that unexpirable articles
| may be mixed into auto-expire groups, you can set
| `gnus-mark-copied-or-moved-articles-as-expirable' to a non-`nil' value.
| In that case, articles that have been read will be marked as expirable
| automatically when being copied or moved to a group that has
| auto-expire turned on.  The default value is `nil'.
`----

Regards,

Re: auto auto-expirable

[Reiner Steib]

On Tue, Jun 02 2009, Mike Kupfer wrote:
> Katsumi Yamaoka <yamaoka@jpl.org> writes:
>>  :variable gnus-auto-auto-expirable-newsgroups
>>  :variable-default nil
>>  :variable-document
>>  "Groups in which articles that have been read are automatically
>>  marked as expirable when moved to or copied to there.
>
>    "Articles that are moved or copied into these groups will retain
>    the expirable mark.

Does your proposal only apply to auto-expirable groups/articles?  The
variable names and Katsumi's doc strings suggest it, but according
to Mike's doc string suggestion, it applies to all expirable article.

On Tue, Jun 02 2009, Katsumi Yamaoka wrote:
> (defcustom gnus-inhibit-auto-auto-expiry nil
>   "If non-nil, don't do auto auto-expiry when moving or copying articles.
> `Auto auto-expiry' means that read articles, even if they haven't been
> marked as expirable, will be automatically marked as expirable when
> moved or copied to a group in which to perform auto-expiry."

I don't have a good suggestion, but the term `Auto auto-expiry' (and
the variable names *-auto-auto-*) is not clear.

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo---  |  PGP key available  |  http://rsteib.home.pages.de/

Re: auto auto-expirable

[Greg Troxel]

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My own usage falls more in line with the intent of the patch than
opposing it.  I have not studied the details and hope that an ab initio
perspective is useful.

Basically, I have groups with 3 different settings:

 no auto-expire (INBOX, etc. for real mail - I manually delete)
 auto-expire (mailing lists, and I tick things I want to keep)
 total-expire (spam, other low-value stuff like daily output mail)

Sometimes mail gets miscategorized by procmail, either because of spam
filtering errors (both ways), header regexp hairiness, or because I was
in To: in list mail.

What I do is "B m <group-where-it-belongs>".  When mailing-list mail
ends up in my INBOX or spam (I filter at 1 SA point, so people using
junky MUAs from yahoo end up there), I generally have glanced at it
enough to know I don't care and want it to be marked expirable in the
mailinglist group.  If I wanted to keep it I'd tick it right there.  I
do want to put it in the mailinglist group because I want the next day's
bayesian training run to pick it up as ham; it might have just been
learned as spam.

If I move a message from a mailinglist group to another group, I'd like
the E flag to be set as if the message had been there in the first place
and then read.

I realize other people might not like this.  So I think what's needed is
a global variable

  expirable-per-destination

that if t means that the expirable mark on a message which is moved to a
destination is set according to what it would have been if

  the message had been in the destination in the first place

  the message has been read or not read there, based on whether it was
  read or not read in the group it was in before.


Operationally, I think this just means.

  if expirable-per-destination

    messages moved into auto-expire groups
      set expire-flag if read-flag

    messages moved into other groups
      clear expire-flag

  else

    status quo


People that don't like this can just not set expirable-per-destination.

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