From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.emacs.gnus.general/58940 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Katsumi Yamaoka Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.gnus.general Subject: Re: changing gnus-group-posting-charset-alist Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 09:51:02 +0900 Organization: Emacsen advocacy group Sender: ding-owner@lists.math.uh.edu Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: deer.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1098147159 17431 80.91.229.6 (19 Oct 2004 00:52:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 00:52:39 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: ding-owner+M7478@lists.math.uh.edu Tue Oct 19 02:52:25 2004 Return-path: Original-Received: from malifon.math.uh.edu ([129.7.128.13] ident=mail) by deer.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1CJiEj-0005Qg-00 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 02:52:25 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.math.uh.edu ident=lists) by malifon.math.uh.edu with smtp (Exim 3.20 #1) id 1CJiDe-0007B8-00; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 19:51:18 -0500 Original-Received: from util2.math.uh.edu ([129.7.128.23]) by malifon.math.uh.edu with esmtp (Exim 3.20 #1) id 1CJiDZ-0007B3-00 for ding@lists.math.uh.edu; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 19:51:13 -0500 Original-Received: from justine.libertine.org ([66.139.78.221] ident=postfix) by util2.math.uh.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CJiDY-0007iY-Em for ding@lists.math.uh.edu; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 19:51:12 -0500 Original-Received: from washington.hostforweb.net (washington.hostforweb.net [69.61.11.2]) by justine.libertine.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFEE23A004B for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 19:51:09 -0500 (CDT) Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by washington.hostforweb.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.42) id 1CJiDY-0000ID-N9 for ding@gnus.org; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 20:51:13 -0400 Original-To: ding@gnus.org X-Face: #kKnN,xUnmKia.'[pp`;Omh}odZK)?7wQSl"4o04=EixTF+V[""w~iNbM9ZL+.b*_CxUmFk B#Fu[*?MZZH@IkN:!"\w%I_zt>[$nm7nQosZ<3eu;B:$Q_:p!',P.c0-_Cy[dz4oIpw0ESA^D*1Lw= L&i*6&( User-Agent: Gnus/5.110003 (No Gnus v0.3) Emacs/21.3.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:OnY1zMHb4AFH3svXc/B0vS8BzwM= X-Hashcash: 1:17:041019:ding@gnus.org::BLRK+z8yXFIF6Dp9:00000bYX X-Antivirus-Scanner: Clean mail though you should still use an Antivirus X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - washington.hostforweb.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnus.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jpl.org X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Precedence: bulk Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.gnus.general:58940 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.gnus.general:58940 The scales dropped from my eyes. That's a Japanese expression meaning that misunderstandings were removed from my mind (in this case, scale is a skin of a big fish). >>>>> In Jesper Harder wrote: > Katsumi Yamaoka writes: >>| gnus-group-posting-charset-alist's value is >>| (("^\\(no\\|fr\\)..." iso-8859-1 (iso-8859-1)) >>| ("^\\(fido7\\|relcom\\)..." koi8-r (koi8-r)) >>| (message-this-is-mail nil nil) >>| (message-this-is-news nil t)) >> >> Is it still necessary not to encode text by qp or something to >> post news articles to no, fr, fido7 and relcom newsgroups? > I think the reason for the special entries isn't CTE=QP as such, but > that those hierarchies don't want rfc2047-encoded headers. I see. Using such charsets is an agreement in those groups, isn't it? >> As for other newsgroups, Gnus forces the 8bit encoding especially >> to news articles' body by default. Isn't it a vestige of the >> time when Gnus had not been multiligualized? It is hard for me >> to imagine there's a difference between mail and news. > The major difference is that NNTP is 8bit-clean whereas SMTP isn't. > Or more precisely: The NNTP draft standard states that NNTP is > 8bit-clean (which has been true for a long time). The SMTP standard > says you shouldn't use 8bit in email except when the server supports > the ESMTP extension 8BITMIME. Indeed. I noticed we can send anything by news, specifying a charset explicitly or implicitly. The value `t' will mean Gnus is not restricted to 7bit rather than forcing 8bit into Gnus. Now I think the value is very just. > In practice SMTP probably _is_ 8bit-clean today -- but we wouln't want > a heavily armed IETF squad team knocking at the door because we're > violating RFC 2821. Which is why we use CTE=QP. I see. Supposing there're still MTAs that don't handle 8bit, what do you think about posting articles to Gmane groups? I got to feel that it does not matter. ;-) >> Almost Japanese text which I write can be encoded by iso-2022-jp >> and 7bit. So, those text will be posted as 7bit articles. >> However, I sometimes followup to articles containing characters >> which cannot be encoded by 7bit. In those cases, text will be >> encoded by shift_jis, utf-8 and so forth and fed to the server >> without being encoded with qp or base64. A newsreader posting >> such articles may be only Gnus nowadays. > It's interesting that your perspective is the opposite of mine: I see > QP mainly as an annoying concession to maybe a few old SMTP servers > which still aren't 8bit-clean. If possible I'd prefer 8bit > everywhere, because you can use the text directly without decoding it > first, for example you can grep your mailbox directly. That's right. Anyway, I appreciate having made me enlightened. > I'm not saying that you're wrong, but that this preference is probably > locale-dependent. And it is perhaps personal-ism-dependent, now I think.