From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.emacs.gnus.general/80282 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Miles Bader Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.gnus.general,gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: smtp crap Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 13:20:17 +0900 Message-ID: References: <8739f4kzp3.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <87ipo0p1bc.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <58C87CB9F44943A7BBE78F2D6B62A850@us.oracle.com> <8762jwfjsj.fsf@catnip.gol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1318306890 24938 80.91.229.12 (11 Oct 2011 04:21:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 04:21:30 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 'Chong Yidong' , Drew Adams , ding@gnus.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Stefan Monnier Original-X-From: ding-owner+M28572=ding+2Daccount=gmane.org@lists.math.uh.edu Tue Oct 11 06:21:26 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: ding-account@gmane.org Original-Received: from util0.math.uh.edu ([129.7.128.18]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RDTqH-0000m6-UH for ding-account@gmane.org; Tue, 11 Oct 2011 06:21:26 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.math.uh.edu) by util0.math.uh.edu with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1RDTqH-0000i3-AF for ding-account@gmane.org; Mon, 10 Oct 2011 23:21:25 -0500 Original-Received: from mx2.math.uh.edu ([129.7.128.33]) by util0.math.uh.edu with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1RDTqF-0000hx-SJ for ding@lists.math.uh.edu; Mon, 10 Oct 2011 23:21:23 -0500 Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.231.51]) by mx2.math.uh.edu with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1RDTqE-0003fk-8Q for ding@lists.math.uh.edu; Mon, 10 Oct 2011 23:21:23 -0500 Original-Received: from relmlor3.renesas.com ([210.160.252.173]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RDTqC-0001hX-0w for ding@gnus.org; Tue, 11 Oct 2011 06:21:20 +0200 Original-Received: from relmlir2.idc.renesas.com ([10.200.68.152]) by relmlor3.idc.renesas.com ( SJSMS) with ESMTP id <0LSV00JCFW20RE30@relmlor3.idc.renesas.com> for ding@gnus.org; Tue, 11 Oct 2011 13:20:24 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: from relmlac4.idc.renesas.com ([10.200.69.24]) by relmlir2.idc.renesas.com ( SJSMS) with ESMTP id <0LSV000QPW203T80@relmlir2.idc.renesas.com> for ding@gnus.org; Tue, 11 Oct 2011 13:20:24 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: by relmlac4.idc.renesas.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id 68F3148087; Tue, 11 Oct 2011 13:20:24 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: from relmlac4.idc.renesas.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relmlac4.idc.renesas.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 621564808E; Tue, 11 Oct 2011 13:20:24 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: from relmlii1.idc.renesas.com [10.200.68.65] by relmlac4.idc.renesas.com with ESMTP id PAB09618; Tue, 11 Oct 2011 13:20:24 +0900 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.68,521,1312124400"; d="scan'208";a="49318380" Original-Received: from unknown (HELO relay51.aps.necel.com) ([10.29.19.60]) by relmlii1.idc.renesas.com with ESMTP; Tue, 11 Oct 2011 13:20:24 +0900 Original-Received: from dhlpc061 (dhlpc061.dev.necel.com [10.114.96.203]) by relay51.aps.necel.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p9B4KJDX007462; Tue, 11 Oct 2011 13:20:19 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: by dhlpc061 (Postfix, from userid 31295) id C427A52E23D; Tue, 11 Oct 2011 13:20:18 +0900 (JST) System-Type: x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu Blat: Foop In-reply-to: Original-Lines: 51 X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) List-ID: Precedence: bulk Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.gnus.general:80282 gmane.emacs.devel:144861 Archived-At: Stefan Monnier writes: >>> As long as we don't have a better solution, yes it should be >>> the default. And for Emacs-24 we won't have a better solution so it >>> will be the default. >> >> So, this presumes that "smtp-using-user-prompted-info" is on average >> more reliable than "use sendmail," even in the case where sendmail can >> be invoked. > > I'd hope that any user who's not dead-set on using Emacs's smtpmail > support will simply say "use mailclient". So the likelihood of wrong > smtp setup should be rather low. Hmm, remember, this issue applies to more than windows... (I'm using debian and I got the question [repeatedly, though the repetition is obviously a bug]). Anyway, part of the problem is that I'm not really sure how prepared people will be to answer that prompt when it unexpectedly pops up,- even the initial y-or-n "use smtp?" question. Unexpected prompts asking detailed technical questions without any explanation are not a good recipe for success... >> Is there data to back up this presumption? > > No. Especially given that the current prompt doesn't really offer > mailclient as an option, so that needs to be fixed first. mailclient is a windows-only option right? How about in the gnu/linux case? Here the choice is (apparently) between sendmail (or really "system MTA," often not really sendmail) and the new smtp. "sendmail" has been the default for ages, and even if it does the wrong thing in some cases, has the advantage being the status quo: people that use emacs either have either made sure that works, or have learned to refrain from sending mail in emacs. This new prompt runs a real risk of making things _worse_: people who have been sending email from emacs for a long time, but aren't really familiar with the details stand a real chance of answering it wrong, and unintentionally misconfiguring emacs in a way that will cause mail to stop working. So absent any data showing the new method would (or at least _might_) improve things, isn't this change in behavior kind of dubious...? -Miles -- The car has become... an article of dress without which we feel uncertain, unclad, and incomplete. [Marshall McLuhan, Understanding Media, 1964]