Re: etc/refcards/ and new-style backquotes (was: Gnus and GPLv3)

Re: etc/refcards/ and new-style backquotes (was: Gnus and GPLv3)

[Miles Bader]

On 8/28/07, Reiner Steib <reiner.steib@gmx.de> wrote:
> > and the refcards getting moved into etc/refcards (I don't know if
> > this move is desirable for Gnus; if not, then just move them back,
> > but if so, I guess the Makefiles etc will need adjusting?).  As this
> > is the 5.10 branch, people might want to keep an eye out for
> > problems.
>
> Hm, the etc/ reorganization is only in Emacs trunk, isn't it.  Did you
> sync from Emacs/trunk to Gnus/v5-10?

Yeah, though only because this is what I've always done.  Now that you
mention it, I guess that creates an inadvertent back-channel from the
emacs-trunk to the emacs-rel-22 branch, which probably isn't a good
thing.

[The gnus relevant merges I do are:

  gnus-5.10 -> emacs-rel-22
  emacs-trunk -> gnus-5.10
  gnus-5.10 -> gnus-trunk
  emacs-rel-22 -> emacs-trunk
]

So... I suppose that it would be better to only sync changes from the
emacs-rel-22 emacs branch to the gnus-5.10 branch?  Or alternatively,
it could be decided that the gnus-5.10 branch should be linked with
the emacs trunk instead of the rel-22 branch.  [I _tentatively_ favor
the latter, as it's always seemed to me that the changes to the 5.10
branch are sometimes a wee bit aggressive considering it's a release
branch.]

If it's decided to keep the 5.10 branch associated with the emacs
rel-22 branch, I'd favor reverting the changes mentioned previously
which aren't on the emacs rel-22 branch.

However if that's decided, there will be no merge channel from the
emacs trunk to gnus, which is not good I think.  In that case, I could
start merging from the emacs-trunk to the gnus-trunk ... but with
multiple merge channels between emacs and gnus, things are starting to
get a bit hairy.... I'm not sure how well it would work out in
practice.

What do people think?

Thanks,

-Miles

-- 
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.

Re: etc/refcards/ and new-style backquotes (was: Gnus and GPLv3)

[Leo]

On 2007-08-30 03:25 +0100, Miles Bader wrote:
> [The gnus relevant merges I do are:
>
>   gnus-5.10 -> emacs-rel-22
>   emacs-trunk -> gnus-5.10
>   gnus-5.10 -> gnus-trunk
>   emacs-rel-22 -> emacs-trunk
> ]

BTW, what happen to the merge of Gnus trunk to Emacs trunk?

Thanks,
-- 
Leo <sdl.web AT gmail.com>                         (GPG Key: 9283AA3F)

         Gnus is one component of the Emacs operating system.

Re: etc/refcards/ and new-style backquotes

[Reiner Steib]

[ I've split off the general merge topic and this specific issue.]

In a personal mail, Miles Bader wrote:

> There are some other potentially troublesome changes, such as the
> removal of old-style backquotes, 

I didn't follow this discussion closely on emacs-devel.  Is it an
incompatible change WRT Emacs 21 (and XEmacs 21.[45])?  (At least a
quick `emacs-lisp-byte-compile-and-load' succeeded in Emacs 21.)

[The new-style backquotes change is also in emacs-rel-22 so it is
independent from how we proceed with merging.]

> and the refcards getting moved into etc/refcards (I don't know if
> this move is desirable for Gnus; if not, then just move them back,
> but if so, I guess the Makefiles etc will need adjusting?).  As this
> is the 5.10 branch, people might want to keep an eye out for
> problems.

Hm, the etc/ reorganization is only in Emacs trunk, isn't it.  Did you
sync from Emacs/trunk to Gnus/v5-10?

Given that we only have a couple of files in etc, I don't think we
need a separate directory for the Gnus refcard.  OTOH, I won't object
to it if it makes it more simple for you.  What do people think?

,----[ v5-10/etc$ cat CVS/Entries refcards/CVS/Entries ]
| /.cvsignore/6.1/Tue Jun 19 18:43:20 2001//Tv5-10
| D/smilies////
| D/images////
| /Makefile.in/1.5.2.9/Mon Jun  4 19:29:01 2007//Tv5-10
| /gnus-tut.txt/6.7.2.6/Mon Aug 27 07:07:35 2007//Tv5-10
| D/refcards////
| /README/1.1.2.1/Mon Aug 27 04:03:56 2007//Tv5-10
| /gnus-booklet.pdf/1.1.2.1/Mon Aug 27 04:03:56 2007//Tv5-10
| /gnus-logo.eps/1.1.2.1/Mon Aug 27 04:03:56 2007//Tv5-10
| /gnus-logo.pdf/1.1.2.1/Mon Aug 27 04:03:56 2007//Tv5-10
| /gnus-refcard.pdf/1.1.2.1/Mon Aug 27 04:03:56 2007//Tv5-10
| /gnus-refcard.tex/1.1.2.1/Mon Aug 27 04:03:56 2007//Tv5-10
| D
`----

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo---  |  PGP key available  |  http://rsteib.home.pages.de/

Re: etc/refcards/ and new-style backquotes

[Reiner Steib]

On Thu, Aug 30 2007, Miles Bader wrote:

> [The gnus relevant merges I do are:
>
>   gnus-5.10 -> emacs-rel-22
>   emacs-trunk -> gnus-5.10
>   gnus-5.10 -> gnus-trunk
>   emacs-rel-22 -> emacs-trunk
> ]
>
> So... I suppose that it would be better to only sync changes from the
> emacs-rel-22 emacs branch to the gnus-5.10 branch?  Or alternatively,
> it could be decided that the gnus-5.10 branch should be linked with
> the emacs trunk instead of the rel-22 branch.  [I _tentatively_ favor
> the latter, as it's always seemed to me that the changes to the 5.10
> branch are sometimes a wee bit aggressive considering it's a release
> branch.]

Do you have specific changes in mind?  I don't recall that we
introduced any regressions or other problems.

I don't understand your argument here.  As the Emacs trunk is open for
any changes now, it seems quite dangerous to me to sync changes from
Emacs trunk to gnus-5.10, isn't it?

> If it's decided to keep the 5.10 branch associated with the emacs
> rel-22 branch, I'd favor reverting the changes mentioned previously
> which aren't on the emacs rel-22 branch.
>
> However if that's decided, there will be no merge channel from the
> emacs trunk to gnus, which is not good I think.  In that case, I could
> start merging from the emacs-trunk to the gnus-trunk ... but with
> multiple merge channels between emacs and gnus, things are starting to
> get a bit hairy.... I'm not sure how well it would work out in
> practice.

Isn't the latter what we discussed in the thread "Syncing Gnus and
Emacs repositories"?
(cf. <http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel/72807>, when Gmane is
back again)

IMHO, we should have:

- gnus-5.10 <-> emacs-rel-22

  Because both should contain only bugfixes for 5.10.*/5.11.

- gnus-trunk <-> emacs-trunk

  To get more and early testing on No Gnus.

- gnus-5.10 -> gnus-trunk and/or emacs-rel-22 -> emacs-trunk

  To ensure bug fixes also go into the development series.
  "and/or", because both mostly do the same, if we have the two other
  channels in place.

Could you explain what kind of (new) problems you'd expect in this
scenario?

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo---  |  PGP key available  |  http://rsteib.home.pages.de/

Re: etc/refcards/ and new-style backquotes

[Miles Bader]

Leo <sdl.web@gmail.com> writes:
> BTW, what happen to the merge of Gnus trunk to Emacs trunk?

It's not going to happen until someone (not me) decides what to do about
the whole PGG mess.

-Miles

-- 
Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time.  -- Steven Wright

Re: etc/refcards/ and new-style backquotes

[Miles Bader]

Reiner Steib <reinersteib+gmane@imap.cc> writes:
>> [I _tentatively_ favor the latter, as it's always seemed to me that
>> the changes to the 5.10 branch are sometimes a wee bit aggressive
>> considering it's a release branch.]
>
> Do you have specific changes in mind?  I don't recall that we
> introduced any regressions or other problems.

No.  But some changes made on the 5.10 branch look a bit involved to me
(and often differ in details from the same change on the trunk), and my
impression is that the threshold for including a change on the 5.10
branch is kind of low (I think the same is true of the Emacs rel-22
branch, BTW).

> I don't understand your argument here.  As the Emacs trunk is open for
> any changes now, it seems quite dangerous to me to sync changes from
> Emacs trunk to gnus-5.10, isn't it?

Well, in general you're right, though in practice it's maybe not a big
deal -- almost every change made to Gnus on the Emacs trunk is basically
pretty trivial (they're almost all spelling fixes and random stuff like
that).

> - gnus-5.10 <-> emacs-rel-22
> - gnus-trunk <-> emacs-trunk
> - gnus-5.10 -> gnus-trunk and/or emacs-rel-22 -> emacs-trunk
>
>   To ensure bug fixes also go into the development series.
>   "and/or", because both mostly do the same, if we have the two other
>   channels in place.
>
> Could you explain what kind of (new) problems you'd expect in this
> scenario?

Only that many changes will be showing up via multiple paths, and the
simplistic mechanisms used to resolve such "conflicts" are fairly
brittle.

If the change rate on the branch(es) is low, it's not a big deal, but
it's kind of annoying slogging through merging
similar-but-not-quite-identical versions of the same change.

Merging the Gnus trunk into the Emacs trunk of course needs someone (not
me) to deal with the PGG mess.

-Miles

-- 
Suburbia: where they tear out the trees and then name streets after them.

Re: etc/refcards/ and new-style backquotes

[Leo]

On 2007-08-31 02:42 +0100, Miles Bader wrote:
> It's not going to happen until someone (not me) decides what to do about
> the whole PGG mess.

Does Gnus trunk work with pgg in Emacs trunk? If so, can you merge
without syncing pgg?

Thanks,
-- 
Leo <sdl.web AT gmail.com>                         (GPG Key: 9283AA3F)

         Gnus is one component of the Emacs operating system.

Re: etc/refcards/ and new-style backquotes

[Miles Bader]

Leo <sdl.web@gmail.com> writes:
>> It's not going to happen until someone (not me) decides what to do about
>> the whole PGG mess.
>
> Does Gnus trunk work with pgg in Emacs trunk? If so, can you merge
> without syncing pgg?

I don't know.

-Miles

-- 
If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten.  [George Carlin]