Cups

Cups

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

I threatened to do this years ago, but this time I'm actually going to 
do it.  I think I've got the design ready, so now I only have to
actually get the cups done and set things up, and stuff.  And I'm *so* 
good at doing all those practical things.

So, er, the plan is that these cups are going to go out before Xmas,
but it'll probably be too late for you to actually get any of the cups 
before the year 2000, but I'll try to set the wheels in motion and
stuff.

So, like, there really is no news right now about how to order and,
er, stuff, but I though I should just give y'all a warning.

(And this is the Pterodactyl Gnus coffee/tea/chocolate/whatever cups
to celebrate that Pterodactyl Gnus is going to be released on December 
3, the design says.)

More news as things develop!  Stay tuned!  

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: Cups

[Wes Hardaker]

>>>>> On 21 Nov 1999 19:03:34 +0100, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> said:

Lars> So, er, the plan is that these cups are going to go out before
Lars> Xmas, but it'll probably be too late for you to actually get any
Lars> of the cups before the year 2000, but I'll try to set the wheels
Lars> in motion and stuff.

Oh sure...  You just want us to send you the money before the world
explodes on the 1st so that you can say you died with the most
cash...  I get it...

-- 
"Ninjas aren't dangerous.  They're more afraid of you than you are of them."

Re: Cups

[Steinar Bang]

>>>>> Wes Hardaker <wjhardaker@ucdavis.edu>:

> Oh sure...  You just want us to send you the money before the world
> explodes on the 1st 

Will it explode all at once, or will the explosion follow the
terminator (aptly named)?

Re: Cups

[Wes Hardaker]

>>>>> On 23 Nov 1999 08:18:03 +0100, Steinar Bang <sb@metis.no> said:

Steinar> Will it explode all at once, or will the explosion follow the
Steinar> terminator (aptly named)?

I think it'll explode independantly in each time zone right?  So only
1/24th of the world will explode first.  

Homework: If the terminator is flying westward around the world, how
fast must he be flying to ensure that the explosion is always just
behind him?


-- 
"Ninjas aren't dangerous.  They're more afraid of you than you are of them."

Re: Cups

[Bud Rogers]

Wes Hardaker <wjhardaker@ucdavis.edu> writes:

> >>>>> On 23 Nov 1999 08:18:03 +0100, Steinar Bang <sb@metis.no> said:
> 
> Steinar> Will it explode all at once, or will the explosion follow the
> Steinar> terminator (aptly named)?
> 
> I think it'll explode independantly in each time zone right?  So only
> 1/24th of the world will explode first.  

That's what we think|hope at work.  I work for a power company.  We plan to
have lots of Y2K compliant human beings in strategic locations with their
hands on manual controls that night.  We're located in the Central US time
zone.  Consensus is that we will have several hours of examples if there
are real problems.  Consensus is also that it will be mostly a non-event,
at least in North America and Europe.

> 
> Homework: If the terminator is flying westward around the world, how
> fast must he be flying to ensure that the explosion is always just
> behind him?

Hmm, (desperately tries to remember high school geography lessons),
circumference of the earth is about 25,000 mi. or 40,000 km.  Terminator
speed would be a bit more than 1,000 mph or a bit less that 1,700 kph.
Sound reasonable?

-- 

Bud Rogers <budr@sirinet.net>

Re: Cups

[Harry Putnam]

On Tue, Nov 23, 1999 at 10:18:00AM -0600, Bud Rogers wrote:
> Wes Hardaker <wjhardaker@ucdavis.edu> writes:
> 
> Hmm, (desperately tries to remember high school geography lessons),
> circumference of the earth is about 25,000 mi. or 40,000 km.  Terminator
> speed would be a bit more than 1,000 mph or a bit less that 1,700 kph.
> Sound reasonable?


One problem... Since Eisensteins theory of slothitivity holds that the
speed of light is really 962.785 mph,  then  "Terminator" would be a
baby after only two revolutions.

Re: Cups

[Mats Lvfdahl]

Bud Rogers <budr@sirinet.net> writes:

> Hmm, (desperately tries to remember high school geography lessons),
> circumference of the earth is about 25,000 mi. or 40,000 km.
> Terminator speed would be a bit more than 1,000 mph or a bit less
> that 1,700 kph.  Sound reasonable?

At the equator, yes.  But if Lars stays in Norway, he would see a
slower terminator.  Scientists who spend the new years eve at the
south pole can easily walk from time zone to time zone, celabrating
Y2K 24 times.  If they can take that much champagne, that is.

-- 
Mats Löfdahl

Re: Cups

[Felix Hagemann]

Wes Hardaker <wjhardaker@ucdavis.edu> writes:

> Homework: If the terminator is flying westward around the world, how
> fast must he be flying to ensure that the explosion is always just
> behind him?

At what altitude does a standard terminator fly? ;-)

F`up.

-- 
Gruß,
Felix Hagemann                  mailto:felix.hagemann@gmx.de

Re: Cups

[Wes Hardaker]

>>>>> On 23 Nov 1999 10:18:00 -0600, Bud Rogers <budr@sirinet.net> said:

Bud> That's what we think|hope at work.  I work for a power company.
Bud> We plan to have lots of Y2K compliant human beings in strategic
Bud> locations with their hands on manual controls that night.

I'm glad that someone will be working that night to ensure my safety
while I'm putting back a beer ;-)

Bud> Hmm, (desperately tries to remember high school geography
Bud> lessons), circumference of the earth is about 25,000 mi. or
Bud> 40,000 km.  Terminator speed would be a bit more than 1,000 mph
Bud> or a bit less that 1,700 kph.  Sound reasonable?

A- (An exact answer would have gotten an A+)

-- 
"Ninjas aren't dangerous.  They're more afraid of you than you are of them."

Re: Cups

[Jeff Senn]

Wes Hardaker <wjhardaker@ucdavis.edu> writes:
> >>>>> On 23 Nov 1999 10:18:00 -0600, Bud Rogers <budr@sirinet.net> said:
> Bud> Hmm, (desperately tries to remember high school geography
> Bud> lessons), circumference of the earth is about 25,000 mi. or
> Bud> 40,000 km.  Terminator speed would be a bit more than 1,000 mph
> Bud> or a bit less that 1,700 kph.  Sound reasonable?
> 
> A- (An exact answer would have gotten an A+)

As someone said, it depends on your latitude: off the top of my head
I'd say you have to go at most:

 1666.67 * cos(abs(lat)) KPH

[Assuming you started at least 1666.67 km in the correct direction
from the initial event and maintain constant speed to the west :-)]

-- 
-Jas

Re: Cups

[Bud Rogers]

Wes Hardaker <wjhardaker@ucdavis.edu> writes:

> A- (An exact answer would have gotten an A+)

I never give exact answers hardly.

-- 

Bud Rogers <budr@sirinet.net>
I think Heisenberg was about right.

Flying terminator (was: Re: Cups)

[Jeff Senn]

Felix Hagemann <fx@coop-x.de> writes:

> Wes Hardaker <wjhardaker@ucdavis.edu> writes:
> 
> > Homework: If the terminator is flying westward around the world, how
> > fast must he be flying to ensure that the explosion is always just
> > behind him?
> 
> At what altitude does a standard terminator fly? ;-)

Darn it -- always something! I missed altitude:

 (1666.67 + (km_of_altitude_above_sea_level/12)) * cos(abs(lat)) KPH

...assuming no wind :-)

(Boy, I haven't had a discussion quite this pointless on a list for
quite awhile; I must be getting old...)
-- 
-Jas

Re: Cups

[Wes Hardaker]

>>>>> On 23 Nov 1999 13:31:13 -0500, Jeff Senn <senn@maya.com> said:

Jeff> As someone said, it depends on your latitude: off the top of my head
Jeff> I'd say you have to go at most:

Jeff> 1666.67 * cos(abs(lat)) KPH

Yep.  Though, I was assuming he'd be riding that really cool
motorcycle.

Jeff> [Assuming you started at least 1666.67 km in the correct
Jeff> direction from the initial event and maintain constant speed to
Jeff> the west :-)]

Around the equator, as someone else pointed out.

-- 
"Ninjas aren't dangerous.  They're more afraid of you than you are of them."

leafnode - gnus

[Pieter Wenk]

Hello to all,

Thanks to the help of one of the list members, I have
remade my .gnus...starting now absolutely correctly. 
Xemacs as well...no errors anymore. 

I installed leafnode...and here I have a problem with
.gnus or possibly leafnode and .gnus.

I made a test with another NR (Netscape). Now, with this
NR I have no problems subsribing NG, read messages, 
sending messages. Everything seems to wotk correctly.

The next day, launching again Netscape....the subscribed
NG..are"NOT", shown..., but I could re-subsribe them.

Now under gnus:

M-x gnus, starts and hangs after loading env.....done.
A buffer NNTP is existing...but I am not getting a 
Group Summary....

Below the entry I have in .gnus with regards to the NG
fetching:

;;* News-Holen-Methode setzen. Hier 'nntp'
;;=============================================================================
;;News************************************************************************
(setq user-mail-address "pwenk@urbanet.ch")
(setq gnus-select-method '(nntp "localhost"))
;(setq `nntp-send-authinfo t)

;;*****************************************************************************
;;Gnus list vom News-Server ***************************************************
;;*****************************************************************************
(setq gnus-subscribe-newsgroup-method 'gnus-subscribe-interactively)
;(setq gnus-asynchronous 'some)
(setq gnus-read-active-file t)

Could possibly somebody tell me what's wrong ? Is it leafnode
who makes some mistakes ? (Fetching is working correctly). 
Do I have something incomplete in the above ?

Many thanks for yopur help.

Regards
---         
                           / /  (_)____ __ ____  __
      Pieter Wenk         / /__/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ /  Vevey/Switzerland
                         /____/_/_//_/\_,_/ /_/\_\

Re: Flying terminator (was: Re: Cups)

[Dan Mills]

Jeff Senn <senn@maya.com> writes:

> Felix Hagemann <fx@coop-x.de> writes:
> 
> > Wes Hardaker <wjhardaker@ucdavis.edu> writes:
> > 
> > > Homework: If the terminator is flying westward around the world, how
> > > fast must he be flying to ensure that the explosion is always just
> > > behind him?
> > 
> > At what altitude does a standard terminator fly? ;-)
> 
> Darn it -- always something! I missed altitude:

And what about the starting position?  If the terminator starts out
just east of where the first explosion takes place, he can just relax
and check some news (hopefully with pgnus), until the explosions catch 
up with him.

-Dan

-- 
Dan Mills, Duke Class of 2000         -o)
email: dm(at)cs(dot)duke(dot)edu      /\\
-----------------------------------\ _\_v
Damn Sill.. Sand Mill?  All Minds! |_____

Re: Cups

[Steinar Bang]

>>>>> Wes Hardaker <wjhardaker@ucdavis.edu>:

>>>>> On 23 Nov 1999 13:31:13 -0500, Jeff Senn <senn@maya.com> said:
Jeff> As someone said, it depends on your latitude: off the top of my head
Jeff> I'd say you have to go at most:

Jeff> 1666.67 * cos(abs(lat)) KPH

> Yep.  Though, I was assuming he'd be riding that really cool
> motorcycle.

As Harleys go, the Fat Boy is kinda cool.

But it's not my kinda bike.

I'll rather take Nipponese plastic any day.

Heh... my VFR750F rounded 80000km this autumn.  That's twice around
the globe at the equator, since I bought it in May 1996.

Maybe it's time to get a life?

Re: leafnode - gnus

[Pieter Wenk]

On mar, 23 nov 1999, Pieter Wenk wrote:


Sombody advised me, that this message did reach
the list with an incorrect text ( no idea why).

I allow to repost it again.

Sorry for inconviniences.

Regards
>
>Hello to all,
>
>Thanks to the help of one of the list members, I have
>remade my .gnus...starting now absolutely correctly. 
>Xemacs as well...no errors anymore. 
>
>I installed leafnode...and here I have a problem with
>.gnus or possibly leafnode and .gnus.
>
>I made a test with another NR (Netscape). Now, with this
>NR I have no problems subsribing NG, read messages, 
>sending messages. Everything seems to wotk correctly.
>
>The next day, launching again Netscape....the subscribed
>NG..are"NOT", shown..., but I could re-subsribe them.
>
>Now under gnus:
>
>M-x gnus, starts and hangs after loading env.....done.
>A buffer NNTP is existing...but I am not getting a 
>Group Summary....
>
>Below the entry I have in .gnus with regards to the NG
>fetching:
>
>;;* News-Holen-Methode setzen. Hier 'nntp'
>;;=============================================================================
>;;News************************************************************************
>(setq user-mail-address "pwenk@urbanet.ch")
>(setq gnus-select-method '(nntp "localhost"))
>;(setq `nntp-send-authinfo t)
>
>;;*****************************************************************************
>;;Gnus list vom News-Server ***************************************************
>;;*****************************************************************************
>(setq gnus-subscribe-newsgroup-method 'gnus-subscribe-interactively)
>;(setq gnus-asynchronous 'some)
>(setq gnus-read-active-file t)
>
>Could possibly somebody tell me what's wrong ? Is it leafnode
>who makes some mistakes ? (Fetching is working correctly). 
>Do I have something incomplete in the above ?
>
>Many thanks for yopur help.
>
>Regards
>---         

---         
                           / /  (_)____ __ ____  __
      Pieter Wenk         / /__/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ /  Vevey/Switzerland
                         /____/_/_//_/\_,_/ /_/\_\

Re: Cups

[Wes Hardaker]

>>>>> On 24 Nov 1999 08:51:52 +0100, Steinar Bang <sb@metis.no> said:

Steinar> Heh... my VFR750F rounded 80000km this autumn.  That's twice
Steinar> around the globe at the equator, since I bought it in May
Steinar> 1996.

Ok, you'll have to do faster than that (as other people have
previously calculated) in order to beat the y2k explosions behind you...

Your homework: calculate, in mph or kph, your average speed since you
bought your motorcycle.
-- 
"Ninjas aren't dangerous.  They're more afraid of you than you are of them."

Re: Cups

[Hrvoje Niksic]

Wes Hardaker <wjhardaker@ucdavis.edu> writes:

> >>>>> On 24 Nov 1999 08:51:52 +0100, Steinar Bang <sb@metis.no> said:
> 
> Steinar> Heh... my VFR750F rounded 80000km this autumn.  That's
> Steinar> twice around the globe at the equator, since I bought it in
> Steinar> May 1996.
[...]
> Your homework: calculate, in mph or kph, your average speed since
> you bought your motorcycle.

Bah.  I walk faster than that.  :-)

Re: Flying terminator (was: Re: Cups)

[Jeff Senn]

Dan Mills <dm@cs.duke.edu> writes:
> > Darn it -- always something! I missed altitude:
> 
> And what about the starting position?  If the terminator starts out
> just east of where the first explosion takes place, he can just relax
> and check some news (hopefully with pgnus), until the explosions catch 
> up with him.

Oh, _that_ one I thought of, I did say "at most" ... :-)

-- 
-Jas

Re: Cups

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Wes Hardaker <wjhardaker@ucdavis.edu> writes:

> Oh sure...  You just want us to send you the money before the world
> explodes on the 1st so that you can say you died with the most
> cash...  I get it...

Nah.  I'm trusting all your moolah to the banking system in the hope
that a computer glitch will quadruple the amount in my bank account.

Anyway, I've also ordered temporary Gnus tattoos.  After the world has 
ended, the only way to tell friend from foe will be by their markings, 
I think I've heard.  Get your tats to let the other know that you're
extra special.

Or something.

(Visa application.  Check.  Tats ordered.  Check.  New domain name.
Check.  Virtual web server set up.  Check.  Thawte web certificate
ordered.  Check.  Er...  Have I forgotten something?  Eee!  The mugs!
I knew there was something I was forgetting!)

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: Cups

[Wes Hardaker]

>>>>> On 24 Nov 1999 20:35:41 +0100, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> said:

Lars> Get your tats to let the other know that you're extra special.

Yeah, that way you can let all the people know that you no longer read 
your mail with Gnus but you used to before the fall of the great
computer age...

-- 
"Ninjas aren't dangerous.  They're more afraid of you than you are of them."

Re: Cups

[Wes Hardaker]

>>>>> On 24 Nov 1999 16:42:14 +0100, Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@iskon.hr> said:

>> Your homework: calculate, in mph or kph, your average speed since
>> you bought your motorcycle.

Hrvoje> Bah.  I walk faster than that.  :-)

True...  But you haven't, if you calculate the same average...

Extra Credit: calculate the acceleration needed to increase between
your average speed in the problem above to the speed you'd need to
obtain in order to survive the explosions behind you at y2k time.
And, figure out where on the earth (equator), given that acceleration,
you'd need to start to end up at the correct timezone border when the
first explosion went off behind you...

-- 
"Ninjas aren't dangerous.  They're more afraid of you than you are of them."

Re: Cups

[William M. Perry]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> Wes Hardaker <wjhardaker@ucdavis.edu> writes:
> 
> > Oh sure...  You just want us to send you the money before the world
> > explodes on the 1st so that you can say you died with the most
> > cash...  I get it...
> 
> Nah.  I'm trusting all your moolah to the banking system in the hope
> that a computer glitch will quadruple the amount in my bank account.
> 
> Anyway, I've also ordered temporary Gnus tattoos.  After the world has
> ended, the only way to tell friend from foe will be by their markings, I
> think I've heard.  Get your tats to let the other know that you're extra
> special.

that kicks #%!@ :) I'm going to have to order a dozen or so for my son.
He loves those things.  what we really need are stuffed gnus.  My son liked
my linux fund credit card (has tux on the front) that I bought him a big
stuffed tux and he went nuts over it.

-Bill P.

Re: Cups

[Kai Großjohann]

William M. Perry <wmperry@aventail.com> writes:

> [...] what we really need are stuffed gnus. [...]

Oh, yes!  Stuffed Gnus!  Way to go!

kai
-- 
because I couldn't think of a good beginning.

Re: Cups

[Colin Marquardt]

* Kai Großjohann <Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE> writes:

> William M. Perry <wmperry@aventail.com> writes:
>> [...] what we really need are stuffed gnus. [...]

> Oh, yes!  Stuffed Gnus!  Way to go!

Such as http://www.freibergnet.de/cgi-bin/fgnet/03-002?Fj7PMp4c;;73 ?

Re: Cups

[Kai Großjohann]

Colin Marquardt <c.marquardt@alcatel.de> writes:

> Such as http://www.freibergnet.de/cgi-bin/fgnet/03-002?Fj7PMp4c;;73 ?

Wow.  KEWL!

kai
-- 
because I couldn't think of a good beginning.

Re: Cups

[William M. Perry]

Colin Marquardt <c.marquardt@alcatel.de> writes:

> * Kai Großjohann <Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE> writes:
> 
> > William M. Perry <wmperry@aventail.com> writes:
> >> [...] what we really need are stuffed gnus. [...]
> 
> > Oh, yes!  Stuffed Gnus!  Way to go!
> 
> Such as http://www.freibergnet.de/cgi-bin/fgnet/03-002?Fj7PMp4c;;73 ?

Looks nice, but not quite the stylized Gnus Gnu if you know what I mean. :)

-Bill P.

Re: Cups

[Simon Josefsson]

William M. Perry <wmperry@aventail.com> writes:

> Colin Marquardt <c.marquardt@alcatel.de> writes:
> 
> > * Kai Großjohann <Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE> writes:
> > 
> > > William M. Perry <wmperry@aventail.com> writes:
> > >> [...] what we really need are stuffed gnus. [...]
> > 
> > > Oh, yes!  Stuffed Gnus!  Way to go!
> > 
> > Such as http://www.freibergnet.de/cgi-bin/fgnet/03-002?Fj7PMp4c;;73 ?
> 
> Looks nice, but not quite the stylized Gnus Gnu if you know what I mean. :)

Ask them to make copies in different colors to match the alpha gnus
splash screen?  Could become a collectors item.

Re: Cups

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

wmperry@aventail.com (William M. Perry) writes:

> Looks nice, but not quite the stylized Gnus Gnu if you know what I mean. :)

I think that making a stuffed Gnus gnu would be, er, a challenge.  :-) 
I mean, it's not very three dimensional, is it?  (Or, er, connected.)

Anyway, the mugs have now been secured.  They are dark, dark blue,
80mm diameter and 90mm high.  (Or 3.2 inches in diameter and 3.5
inches in height, if one prefers non-metric.)  The model is called
"Stratford" (made in England), and the ink used is going to be red.
(I wanted silver metallic ink, but they couldn't guarantee that it
would be microwave safe.)  The ink is below the, er, glaze, and they
should be dishwasher safe.  (I've got a sample which I'm going to run
through the dishwasher on the "toughest" program a few times, which
should show whether these are crap or not.)  They weigh 245 grams.
Er...  I think those should be the vital stats.  Except for price,
which I'm going to have to do some calculation to find out (you know,
packaging and overhead and breakage and stuff).  I'm guessing they
will end up costing somewhere between $8-10, not including postage.
Oh, and they will try to deliver them before Xmas, but they weren't
sure.  

So, I've written the web shopping cart thing, but you can't see it
yet.  I'm waiting for the approval from Visa to take cards.
<URL:http://ingebrigtsen.no/> will be the place to shop.  (I just got
a mail that said the domain was approved, but the root servers don't
seem to be updated yet.)

*phew*

Hm -- perhaps I should take cash pre-orders from those who want to pay 
by cash?  Er...  Probably not much point.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: Cups

[Hrvoje Niksic]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> Hm -- perhaps I should take cash pre-orders from those who want to
> pay by cash?

Please please please!

Believe it or not, some of us don't have and can't get a credit card.

Re: Cups

[Jan Vroonhof]

Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@iskon.hr> writes:

> Please please please!
> 
> Believe it or not, some of us don't have and can't get a credit card.

And some of us have two,  but neither being a visa!

Jan

P.S. I want at least 4. The Gnus logos is one of the most beautiful
logos around!

Re: Cups

[Gunnar Evermann]

Jan Vroonhof <vroonhof@math.ethz.ch> writes:

[stuff]

your References header is broken:

> References: <m34sef90y1.fsf@quimbies.gnus.org> <sdg0xyh1vv.fsf@wanderer.dcn.davis.ca.us> <m3ln7nn0mq.fsf@quimbies.gnus.org> <86903n762l.fsf@megalith.bp.aventail.com> <vafu2mblylj.fsf@lucy.cs.uni-dortmund.de> <k8zd7sydabl.fsf@alcatel.de> <86wvr6v9sb.fsf@me

is that a known bug?

 Gunnar

Re: Cups

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@iskon.hr> writes:

> > Hm -- perhaps I should take cash pre-orders from those who want to
> > pay by cash?
> 
> Please please please!
> 
> Believe it or not, some of us don't have and can't get a credit card.

I'm definitely going to take cash, but I'm wondering if there's any
point in doing cash pre-orders.  I was thinking -- cash takes up to a
week to reach me.  So if I get the cups on Dec. 20th, and start to
take orders then, then no non-Visa orders will be shipped before
Xmas.  Which is un-nice.  On the other hand, even if the mugs ship on
Dec. 21st, then nobody will get them before Xmas anyway, since the
postal service in northern Europe around that time grinds to a halt.
So, er, uhm.

So I was thinking -- pre-orders or not?  If the mugs are delayed until
the middle of January, then pre-orders (especially cash pre-orders;
Visa pre-orders won't be charged until the mugs ship) will have sent
out their money *way* ahead of when they get their mugs, which is
un-nice.

I dunno.  Pre-orders or not?  Huh?  Huh?

I'd like to have the mugs before I start taking orders.  On the fifth
hand, if I take pre-orders and see that the number of orders is much
higher than anticipated, then I will be able to bump up the number of
mugs to be made.  (The final deadline for the actual number of mugs to 
be made is Dec. 10 or something.)

*sigh*

Life isn't easy.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Broken References (was: Cups)

[Toby Speight]

Gunnar> Gunnar Evermann <URL:mailto:ge204@cam.ac.uk>

0> In article <mqqk8n6v6aj.fsf@eng.cam.ac.uk>, Gunnar wrote:

Gunnar> [Jan Vroonhof's] References header[in article
Gunnar> <byso1ucxdh.fsf@bolzano.math.ethz.ch>] is broken:

>> References: <m34sef90y1.fsf@quimbies.gnus.org> <sdg0xyh1vv.fsf@wanderer.dcn.davis.ca.us> <m3ln7nn0mq.fsf@quimbies.gnus.org> <86903n762l.fsf@megalith.bp.aventail.com> <vafu2mblylj.fsf@lucy.cs.uni-dortmund.de> <k8zd7sydabl.fsf@alcatel.de> <86wvr6v9sb.fsf@me

Gunnar> is that a known bug?

It's probably an MTA bug somewhere (or feature - I can't remember
what the line-length limit is on headers).  Perhaps we should be able
to tell Gnus that we're passing the message to a network that does
this.  In times gone past, Gnus used to wrap long References lines,
but no longer does (in order to coddle broken readers).  Can we go
back to doing this?  Or remove the oldest references to reduce the
line length?

Re: Broken References (was: Cups)

[Hrvoje Niksic]

Toby Speight <Toby.Speight@streapadair.freeserve.co.uk> writes:

> >> References: <m34sef90y1.fsf@quimbies.gnus.org> <sdg0xyh1vv.fsf@wanderer.dcn.davis.ca.us> <m3ln7nn0mq.fsf@quimbies.gnus.org> <86903n762l.fsf@megalith.bp.aventail.com> <vafu2mblylj.fsf@lucy.cs.uni-dortmund.de> <k8zd7sydabl.fsf@alcatel.de> <86wvr6v9sb.fsf@me
> 
> Gunnar> is that a known bug?
> 
> It's probably an MTA bug somewhere (or feature - I can't remember
> what the line-length limit is on headers).  Perhaps we should be
> able to tell Gnus that we're passing the message to a network that
> does this.

There are line-length limit suggestions, but they are much larger than
the above.  USEFOR and MESSFOR suggest 998 bytes if memory serves me.

Anyway, Gnus does limit References to around 1000 octets.
Furthermore, it does so intelligently, being careful not to cut the
line in the middle as in the above example.  Look at
message-shorten-references to see how it's done.

> In times gone past, Gnus used to wrap long References lines, but no
> longer does (in order to coddle broken readers).

Correction: it's the servers that are/were broken.  More precisely,
the servers didn't care, but the engine that creates NOV databases
wouldn't handle folded headers correctly.  This resulted in articles
produced by Gnus being threaded incorrectly despite their correct
contents and despite newsreaders being perfectly able to process them.

In the spirit of "be conservative in what you send," Gnus was modified
not to fold References by default, although folding them was clearly
the right thing.

Interoperability is sometimes _so_ sucky.

Re: Cups

[Jan Vroonhof]

Gunnar Evermann <ge204@eng.cam.ac.uk> writes:

> > References: <m34sef90y1.fsf@quimbies.gnus.org> <sdg0xyh1vv.fsf@wanderer.dcn.davis.ca.us> <m3ln7nn0mq.fsf@quimbies.gnus.org> <86903n762l.fsf@megalith.bp.aventail.com> <vafu2mblylj.fsf@lucy.cs.uni-dortmund.de> <k8zd7sydabl.fsf@alcatel.de> <86wvr6v9sb.fsf@me
> 
> is that a known bug?

I think our mailserver is cutting headers.

Jan

Re: Cups

[Jan Vroonhof]

Gunnar Evermann <ge204@eng.cam.ac.uk> writes:

> your References header is broken:

It wasn't in the version I send off.

> > References: <m34sef90y1.fsf@quimbies.gnus.org> <sdg0xyh1vv.fsf@wanderer.dcn.davis.ca.us> <m3ln7nn0mq.fsf@quimbies.gnus.org> <86903n762l.fsf@megalith.bp.aventail.com> <vafu2mblylj.fsf@lucy.cs.uni-dortmund.de> <k8zd7sydabl.fsf@alcatel.de> <86wvr6v9sb.fsf@me

Our mailserver seems to be broken. I have informed our sysadmins.

Jan

Re: Cups

[Felix Hagemann]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> I dunno.  Pre-orders or not?  Huh?  Huh?

Pre-orders! I have some bucks lying around here, which I can´t use for a
while anyway. And I trust you! Well, anyway: I got your picture.

> Life isn't easy.

Are you telling me? ;-)

-- 
Gruß,
Felix Hagemann                  mailto:felix.hagemann@gmx.de

Re: Broken References (was: Cups)

[Russ Allbery]

Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@iskon.hr> writes:

> Correction: it's the servers that are/were broken.  More precisely, the
> servers didn't care, but the engine that creates NOV databases wouldn't
> handle folded headers correctly.  This resulted in articles produced by
> Gnus being threaded incorrectly despite their correct contents and
> despite newsreaders being perfectly able to process them.

> In the spirit of "be conservative in what you send," Gnus was modified
> not to fold References by default, although folding them was clearly the
> right thing.

> Interoperability is sometimes _so_ sucky.

I think the only servers with that problem were 1.4-vintage INN servers.
At some point, Gnus should probably go back to wrapping as those servers
won't be around forever....

-- 
Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu)         <URL:http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

Re: Broken References (was: Cups)

[Hrvoje Niksic]

Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes:

> > Interoperability is sometimes _so_ sucky.
> 
> I think the only servers with that problem were 1.4-vintage INN
> servers.

Yes.

> At some point, Gnus should probably go back to wrapping as those
> servers won't be around forever....

Except that wrapping doesn't preclude shortening.  When speaking of
header size limits, folded headers count as one line.  Or doesn't it?

Re: Broken References (was: Cups)

[Russ Allbery]

Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@iskon.hr> writes:

> Except that wrapping doesn't preclude shortening.  When speaking of
> header size limits, folded headers count as one line.  Or doesn't it?

Not according to the standards, and not in INN I'm fairly sure.

-- 
Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu)         <URL:http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

Re: Broken References (was: Cups)

[Hrvoje Niksic]

Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes:

> Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@iskon.hr> writes:
> 
> > Except that wrapping doesn't preclude shortening.  When speaking of
> > header size limits, folded headers count as one line.  Or doesn't it?
> 
> Not according to the standards, and not in INN I'm fairly sure.

<check check>  You are right.  An oldish USEFOR draft says:

          NOTE: There is NO restriction on the number of lines into
          which a header may be split, and hence there is NO
          restriction on the total length of a header (in particular
          it may, by suitable folding, be made to exceed the 998
          octets restriction pertaining to a single header line).

However, References still needs to be trimmed, based on the number of
message-id's it contains:

          Followup Agents SHOULD NOT trim message ids out of the
          References content unless the number of message ids exceeds 31
          in which case message ids SHOULD be trimmed until there are
          only 31.

This means that once Gnus starts ignoring ancient INN's,
we'll be able to rewrite message-shorten-references to:

a) Always fold references nicely, as old Gnus did.

b) When such folded references contains more than 31 message-id, trim
   them until there is only 31.

In fact, we could code it that way even now, and provide an option
`message-cater-to-broken-inn' defaulting to t.  That way when the time
is ripe, we'll be able to change the default and, with the flip of a
lever, make the world a better place.

If Lars agrees, I can provide a patch.  Lars, what thinks you?

Re: Broken References (was: Cups)

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@iskon.hr> writes:

> In fact, we could code it that way even now, and provide an option
> `message-cater-to-broken-inn' defaulting to t.  That way when the time
> is ripe, we'll be able to change the default and, with the flip of a
> lever, make the world a better place.
> 
> If Lars agrees, I can provide a patch.  Lars, what thinks you?

Sure; sounds good.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: Cups

[William M. Perry]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 210 bytes --]

Felix Hagemann <fx@coop-x.de> writes:

> Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:
> 
> > I dunno.  Pre-orders or not?  Huh?  Huh?
> 
> Pre-orders! I have some bucks lying around here, which I can

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 295 bytes --]

´t use for a
> while anyway. And I trust you! Well, anyway: I got your picture.

Count me in for 4 as well. :)  And a dozen tattoos.

> > Life isn't easy.
> 
> Are you telling me? ;-)

Ha!  When I was a boy, we had to walk 3 miles through the snow to get
anywhere NEAR a life, easy or not!

-bp

Re: Cups

[Bud Rogers]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> Anyway, the mugs have now been secured.  They are dark, dark blue, and
> the ink used is going to be red.

At last, my two major vices converge -- caffeine and usenet.  I'll want at
least four. I'll do the VISA thing when it's up.

-- 

Bud Rogers <budr@sirinet.net>

Re: Cups

[Daniel Pittman]

On 25 Nov 1999, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> wrote:

> wmperry@aventail.com (William M. Perry) writes:
> 
>> Looks nice, but not quite the stylized Gnus Gnu if you know what I
>> mean. :)
> 
> I think that making a stuffed Gnus gnu would be, er, a challenge. :-)
> I mean, it's not very three dimensional, is it? (Or, er, connected.)
> 
> Anyway, the mugs have now been secured.  

Nifty.

[...]

> Hm -- perhaps I should take cash pre-orders from those who want to pay
> by cash? Er... Probably not much point.

Well, I will take a couple and will happily pay with Visa :)

        Daniel

-- 
"Tut, tut, child!" said the Duchess. "Everything's got a moral, if
only you can find it."
        -- Lewis Carroll, _Alice in Wonderland_

Re: Cups

[Per Abrahamsen]

Bud Rogers <budr@sirinet.net> writes:

> Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:
> 
> > Anyway, the mugs have now been secured.  They are dark, dark blue, and
> > the ink used is going to be red.
> 
> At last, my two major vices converge -- caffeine and usenet.  I'll want at
> least four. 

I agree, four major vices is a minimum.  I suggest you try, eh,
chocolate and nethack.

Re: Cups

[Bill White]

I'll take one mug with Visa when the shop's open.

bw

Re: Flying terminator (was: Re: Cups)

[Rob Browning]

Jeff Senn <senn@maya.com> writes:

> Darn it -- always something! I missed altitude:
> 
>  (1666.67 + (km_of_altitude_above_sea_level/12)) * cos(abs(lat)) KPH
> 
> ...assuming no wind :-)

That's not all you missed; the cos() in there makes me think you're
suggesting that the earth is actually a sphere :>

-- 
Rob Browning <rlb@cs.utexas.edu> PGP=E80E0D04F521A094 532B97F5D64E3930