From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.emacs.gnus.general/43055 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jan Vroonhof Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.gnus.general Subject: That old flamewar again [was Re: recent smiley.el changes] Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 16:18:20 +0000 Sender: owner-ding@hpc.uh.edu Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: coloc-standby.netfonds.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: main.gmane.org 1035178211 15560 80.91.224.250 (21 Oct 2002 05:30:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@main.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 05:30:11 +0000 (UTC) Return-Path: Original-Received: (qmail 12358 invoked from network); 12 Feb 2002 16:19:01 -0000 Original-Received: from malifon.math.uh.edu (mail@129.7.128.13) by mastaler.com with SMTP; 12 Feb 2002 16:19:01 -0000 Original-Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu ([129.7.128.10] ident=lists) by malifon.math.uh.edu with esmtp (Exim 3.20 #1) id 16afdf-0006sv-00; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 10:18:39 -0600 Original-Received: by sina.hpc.uh.edu (TLB v0.09a (1.20 tibbs 1996/10/09 22:03:07)); Tue, 12 Feb 2002 10:18:38 -0600 (CST) Original-Received: from sclp3.sclp.com (qmailr@sclp3.sclp.com [209.196.61.66]) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA04100 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 10:18:26 -0600 (CST) Original-Received: (qmail 12351 invoked by alias); 12 Feb 2002 16:18:22 -0000 Original-Received: (qmail 12346 invoked from network); 12 Feb 2002 16:18:22 -0000 Original-Received: from ingebrigtsen.no (HELO quimby2.netfonds.no) (195.204.10.66) by gnus.org with SMTP; 12 Feb 2002 16:18:22 -0000 Original-Received: from news by quimby2.netfonds.no with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 16afna-0003fp-00 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 17:28:54 +0100 Original-To: ding@gnus.org Original-Path: not-for-mail Original-Newsgroups: gnus.ding Original-Lines: 61 Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: inchgower.isltd.insignia.com Original-X-Trace: quimby2.netfonds.no 1013531334 14124 195.74.141.61 (12 Feb 2002 16:28:54 GMT) Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@quimby2.netfonds.no Original-NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Feb 2002 16:28:54 GMT Original-To: Dave Love X-Jans-Posting-Style: outside-news User-Agent: Gnus/5.090006 (Oort Gnus v0.06) XEmacs/21.4 (Civil Service, i686-pc-linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:fdsNQevIXTes0BjRZXxe4rBFR6s= Precedence: list X-Majordomo: 1.94.jlt7 Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.gnus.general:43055 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.gnus.general:43055 I normally keep out of this kind of flame-war. Things have changed for the better recently and I don't want to disturb that by dragging up the bad old days. I hope the readers of 'ding' who must be all to familiar with this particular flamewar will forgive me this message. Dave Love writes: > Note in this connexion that writing common image code is messy since > XEmacs maintainers didn't cooperate on a common API This lies somewhere in between slander and 'the pot calling the kettle black'. Work on Emacs 21 started (or appeared to) long after I joined the XEmacs development and I don't recall _any_ request for such cooperation. At the same time request for access to the fledgling Emacs 21 for API comparisons from interesting XEmacs maintainers were being obstructed. The only inter-operability work was actually done by poor elisp developers being hurt by this. Per and Bill, you know who you are :-) and Thank you. Luckily the latter has been solved, let's hope it is not too late.[1] > and the XEmacs API is poorly documented. Actually this particular bit of XEmacs is rather extensively documented. I wish everything would be up to that standard. Maybe it is not enough, but other people reimpleting APIs have made do with less. And I would have been happy to ask question. > Also the change recording in XEmacs and Gnus > has often made it difficult or impossible to figure out the copyright > status of code. I am fairly sure XEmacs was already using CVS when smiley.el was created and Lars has been making ChangeLogs since day one[2]. If you think chasing paperwork is more dull than coding[3] and that a clean rewrite is a better way to demonstrate new API's, both of which I agree with, then please just say just that, and don't use it to vent some kind of (unbased IMO) grudge. Jan P.S. I will NOT reposond to follow-ups on this message on non-appropriate fora, such as the ding list, if at all. Footnotes: [1] For the Emacs world as a whole, not just XEmacs<->Emacs compatability. [2] In fact I thought he was doing paperwork as well. The 'My gnus changes are public domain' form was the first I ever sent. [3] This is actually a worrying trend. A lot more non-paperwork Free software is being produced, does this mean Emacs and other core GNU software will suffer from the effective NIH syndrome created and if so is there some cut-off point where that is hurting more than the clear provenance gives you benefit? Has it maybe already been reached?