self contained nnfolder

self contained nnfolder

[Simon Josefsson]

Nnfolder is also self-contained now.  Not tested much, so watch out.

There are even traces of documentation under "Choosing a Mail
Backend".  Suggestions welcome.

Now back to the agent/cache unification...

Re: self contained nnfolder

[Raymond Scholz]

Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes:

> Nnfolder is also self-contained now.  Not tested much, so watch out.

Hm, my Buffer List is plastered with my nnfolder archives.  Is that
related to your changes?

Cheers, Ray
-- 
"The main failure in computers is usually between keyboard and chair."

Re: self contained nnfolder

[Simon Josefsson]

Raymond Scholz <ray-2001@zonix.de> writes:

>> Nnfolder is also self-contained now.  Not tested much, so watch out.
>
> Hm, my Buffer List is plastered with my nnfolder archives.  Is that
> related to your changes?

Yes, I think so.  I haven't been able to reproduce it, but I'll try
more tomorrow.

Perhaps this explains the slowness.  The marks stuff doesn't need to
look into the nnfolder archives, and opening all of them certainly
take time and memory.

Re: self contained nnfolder

[Nevin Kapur]

Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes:

> Raymond Scholz <ray-2001@zonix.de> writes:
>
>>> Nnfolder is also self-contained now.  Not tested much, so watch out.
>>
>> Hm, my Buffer List is plastered with my nnfolder archives.  Is that
>> related to your changes?
>
> Yes, I think so.  I haven't been able to reproduce it, but I'll try
> more tomorrow.

I see it too. Here's an excerpt from my Buffer List from a freshly
started XEmacs + Gnus:

 *% *Group*             364            Group 
    *Filter History*     72      Fundamental 
  % *Calendar*          596         Calendar 
    *scratch*             0 Lisp Interaction 
 *  *Compile-Log-Show*      0      Fundamental 
 *  *Compile-Log*       344      Fundamental 
    .diary             1440             Text /home/nevin/.diary
    Archive-1996-Aug   2709      Fundamental /home/nevin/mail/Archive-1996-Aug
    Archive-1996-Nov   3235      Fundamental /home/nevin/mail/Archive-1996-Nov
    Archive-1996-Oct   1357      Fundamental /home/nevin/mail/Archive-1996-Oct
    Archive-1997-May   7394      Fundamental /home/nevin/mail/Archive-1997-May
    Archive-1997-Jun   4147      Fundamental /home/nevin/mail/Archive-1997-Jun
    Archive-1997-Aug   4746      Fundamental /home/nevin/mail/Archive-1997-Aug
    Archive-1997-Sep   9673      Fundamental /home/nevin/mail/Archive-1997-Sep
    Archive-1997-Oct   4954      Fundamental /home/nevin/mail/Archive-1997-Oct
    Archive-1997-Nov   4655      Fundamental /home/nevin/mail/Archive-1997-Nov
    Archive-1998       2069      Fundamental /home/nevin/mail/Archive-1998

[ETC]

*  *Shell Command Output*     50      Fundamental 
    .bbdb             86980      Fundamental /home/nevin/.bbdb
  % *Completions*       177  Completion List 
 *  .newsrc-dribble     270      Fundamental /home/nevin/.newsrc-dribble


I've also noticed that an empty directory corresponding to each of my
nnfolder groups has appeared in $HOME.

-- 
Nevin

Re: self contained nnfolder

[Steve Youngs]

|--==> "NK" == Nevin Kapur <nevin@jhu.edu> writes:

  NK> Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes:
  >>Raymond Scholz <ray-2001@zonix.de> writes:
  >>
  >>>>Nnfolder is also self-contained now.  Not tested much, so watch out.
  >>>
  >>>Hm, my Buffer List is plastered with my nnfolder archives.  Is that
  >>>related to your changes?
  >>
  >>Yes, I think so.  I haven't been able to reproduce it, but I'll try
  >>more tomorrow.

  NK> I see it too. Here's an excerpt from my Buffer List from a freshly
  NK> started XEmacs + Gnus:

Yep, me too.

  NK> I've also noticed that an empty directory corresponding to each of my
  NK> nnfolder groups has appeared in $HOME.

This is fixed in CVS.  You'll need to manually delete those
directories though.

-- 
|---<Steve Youngs>---------------<GnuPG KeyID: 9E7E2820>---|
|            XEmacs - It's not just an editor.             |
|                    It's a way of life.                   |
|------------------------------------<youngs@xemacs.org>---|

Re: self contained nnfolder

[Simon Josefsson]

Nevin Kapur <nevin@jhu.edu> writes:

>>>> Nnfolder is also self-contained now.  Not tested much, so watch out.
>>>
>>> Hm, my Buffer List is plastered with my nnfolder archives.  Is that
>>> related to your changes?
>>
>> Yes, I think so.  I haven't been able to reproduce it, but I'll try
>> more tomorrow.
>
> I see it too. Here's an excerpt from my Buffer List from a freshly
> started XEmacs + Gnus:

This should be fixed now.  Silly iswitch hide those folders from my
view, knowing that I didn't want to see them. :-)

> I've also noticed that an empty directory corresponding to each of my
> nnfolder groups has appeared in $HOME.

That was fixed a couple of hours after the first checkin, sorry about
it.  `rmdir ~/*' or something is probably useful.

Re: self contained nnfolder

[Nevin Kapur]

Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes:

> Nevin Kapur <nevin@jhu.edu> writes:
>
>>>>> Nnfolder is also self-contained now.  Not tested much, so watch out.
>>>>
>>>> Hm, my Buffer List is plastered with my nnfolder archives.  Is that
>>>> related to your changes?
>>>
>>> Yes, I think so.  I haven't been able to reproduce it, but I'll try
>>> more tomorrow.
>>
>> I see it too. Here's an excerpt from my Buffer List from a freshly
>> started XEmacs + Gnus:
>
> This should be fixed now.  Silly iswitch hide those folders from my
> view, knowing that I didn't want to see them. :-)

It's fixed now, thanks.

>> I've also noticed that an empty directory corresponding to each of my
>> nnfolder groups has appeared in $HOME.
>
> That was fixed a couple of hours after the first checkin, sorry about
> it.  `rmdir ~/*' or something is probably useful.

Yes, those directories don't appear again.

-- 
Nevin

Re: self contained nnfolder

[Dan Christensen]

Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes:

> Nnfolder is also self-contained now.  Not tested much, so watch out.

1) `ESC-g' on an nnfolder group leaves "Updating marks for <group>..."
   in the minibuffer, even when it is finished.

2) Only some of my nnfolder groups get .mrk files associated to them.
   Most do not.  This is probably because of something weird in my
   set-up.  In .newsrc.eld, I have:

     (setq gnus-server-alist '(("archive" nnfolder "") ("" nnfolder "")))

   Here are some entries from gnus-newsrc-alist for groups that do
   have a .mrk file:

("nnfolder:house" 2 ((1 . 42)) ((score (15 . 1000) (16 . 1000) (6 . 1000) (2 . 1000) (1 . 1000)) (reply 9 13 19 26 35) (tick (1 . 8) 10 (12 . 13) (18 . 19) 27)) "nnfolder:") 
("nnfolder:categories" 2 ((1 . 1377)) ((seen 159 173 208 275 310 474 494 718 (721 . 722) 727 765 1041 1266 (1316 . 1317) 1319 1321 (1326 . 1327) (1352 . 1375) (1376 . 1377)) (score (1372 . 1000) (1320 . 1000) (1236 . 1000) (1222 . 1000) (1219 . 1000) (1216 . 1000) (1206 . 1000) (1204 . 1000) (1093 . 1000) (1023 . 1000) (1024 . 1000) (1015 . 1000) (1011 . 1000) (993 . 1000) (986 . 1000) (938 . 1000) (919 . 1000) (847 . 1000) (810 . 1000) (795 . 1000) (740 . 1000) (680 . 1000) (676 . 1000) (528 . 1000) (466 . 1000) (403 . 1000) (377 . 1000) (370 . 1000) (324 . 1000) (275 . 1000) (272 . 1000)) (dormant 159 173 208 275 718 (721 . 722) 727 765 (1316 . 1317) 1319 1321 (1326 . 1327) 1374) (expire 1162 (1356 . 1373) (1375 . 1377)) (reply 994) (tick 310 474 494 1041)) (nnfolder "")) 
("nnfolder:beowulf" 2 ((1 . 1878)) ((seen 63 67 95 99 105 109 (113 . 114) 321 340 366 369 448 451 539 (718 . 719) 743 1652 (1691 . 1807) (1808 . 1816) (1817 . 1824) (1825 . 1832) (1833 . 1840) (1841 . 1848) (1849 . 1856) (1857 . 1864) (1865 . 1872) (1873 . 1877) 1878) (forward 1730) (score (1730 . 1000) (1813 . 1000) (1819 . 1000) (1818 . 1000) (1817 . 1000) (1824 . 1000) (1822 . 1000) (1800 . 1000) (1750 . 1000) (1758 . 1000) (1767 . 1000) (1752 . 1000) (1753 . 1000) (1751 . 1000) (1733 . 1000) (1725 . 1000) (1706 . 1000) (1704 . 1000) (1707 . 1000) (1505 . 1000) (1507 . 1000) (1506 . 1000) (1504 . 1000) (1483 . 1000) (1389 . 1000) (1010 . 1000) (1011 . 1000) (1009 . 1000) (971 . 1000) (973 . 1000) (966 . 1000) (930 . 1000) (879 . 1000) (869 . 1000) (851 . 1000) (852 . 1000) (743 . 3000) (730 . 2000) (726 . 1000) (719 . 3000) (718 . 3000) (710 . 1000) (713 . 1000) (705 . 3000) (670 . 1000) (664 . 1000) (700 . 2000) (665 . 1000) (662 . 1000) (678 . 2000) (657 . 1000) (604 . 1000) (598 . 1000) (588 . 1000) (578 . 1000) (583 . 1000) (569 . 1000) (550 . 2000) (547 . 1000) (538 . 1000) (540 . 1000) (539 . 2000) (451 . 1000) (448 . 1000) (340 . 1000) (321 . 1000) (318 . 1000)) (dormant 718 1819) (expire (1746 . 1757) (1759 . 1818) (1820 . 1878)) (reply 719) (tick 63 67 95 99 105 109 (113 . 114) 321 340 366 369 448 451 539 719 1652 1730 1758)) "archive") 
("nnfolder:baldric" 2 ((1 . 113)) ((seen 109 113) (forward 87) (score (106 . 1000) (88 . 1000) (86 . 3000) (85 . 2000) (87 . 2000) (84 . 2000) (79 . 1000) (74 . 3000) (75 . 2000) (80 . 1000) (70 . 1000) (77 . 2000) (73 . 2000) (71 . 1000) (59 . 1000) (58 . 1000) (57 . 1000) (56 . 1000) (48 . 1000) (46 . 1000) (43 . 1000) (54 . 1000) (37 . 1000) (40 . 1000) (38 . 1000) (39 . 1000) (42 . 1000) (44 . 1000) (53 . 1000) (50 . 1000) (45 . 1000) (51 . 1000) (47 . 1000) (35 . 1000)) (expire 109) (reply (36 . 37) 40 48 52 55 58 70 73 79 84)) "archive" nil) 

   And here are some entries for groups that don't have a .mrk file:

("nnfolder:arone" 5 ((1 . 6)) ((tick (5 . 6)) (score (2 . 1000) (4 . 1000)) (reply 1 3 6)) "archive") 
("nnfolder:audrey" 5 ((1 . 52)) ((score (48 . 1000) (47 . 1000) (45 . 1000) (43 . 1000) (40 . 1000) (38 . 1000) (16 . 2000) (17 . 1000) (15 . 1000) (2 . 1000) (1 . 1000) (35 . 1000) (33 . 1000) (26 . 1000) (36 . 1000) (21 . 1000)) (reply 16 18 20 (24 . 25) (30 . 31) 42 46 50)) (nnfolder "")) 
("nnfolder:karen" 5 ((1 . 8)) ((score (4 . 1000) (3 . 1000) (1 . 1000)) (reply 2 5)) "nnfolder:") 
("nnfolder:debian" 5 ((1 . 124) (126 . 131)) ((score (93 . 1000) (92 . 1000) (95 . 1000) (114 . 1000) (90 . 1000) (85 . 1000) (91 . 1000) (111 . 1000) (110 . 1000) (115 . 1000) (86 . 1000) (109 . 1000) (108 . 1000) (113 . 1000) (112 . 1000) (78 . 1000) (77 . 1000) (80 . 1000) (81 . 1000) (76 . 1000) (71 . 1000) (67 . 1000) (63 . 1000) (56 . 1000) (49 . 1000) (48 . 1000) (47 . 1000) (44 . 1000) (38 . 1000) (25 . 1000) (21 . 1000) (13 . 1000) (15 . 1000) (12 . 1000) (11 . 1000) (10 . 1000) (43 . 2000) (39 . 1000) (65 . 1000) (26 . 1000) (60 . 1000) (57 . 1000) (52 . 1000) (33 . 1000) (40 . 1000) (64 . 1000) (46 . 1000) (53 . 1000) (42 . 1000) (32 . 1000) (31 . 1000) (37 . 1000) (45 . 1000) (50 . 1000) (68 . 1000) (29 . 1000) (51 . 1000) (66 . 1000) (34 . 1000) (30 . 1000) (36 . 1000) (35 . 1000) (69 . 1000) (70 . 1000) (41 . 1000) (55 . 1000) (54 . 1000) (61 . 1000) (62 . 1000) (3 . 2000) (5 . 2000) (9 . 2000) (6 . 2000) (2 . 1000) (22 . 1000) (1 . 1000) (24 . 1000) (23 . 1000) (18 . 1000) (7 . 1000) (8 . 1000) (4 . 1000)) (reply 6 9 16 27 39 54 (58 . 59) 65 (72 . 73) (96 . 98) 104 (117 . 118) (126 . 127)) (tick 86 115 131)) "nnfolder:") 

   Can anyone explain why some groups get .mrk files and some don't?

-- 
Dan Christensen
jdc+news@uwo.ca

Re: self contained nnfolder

[Dan Christensen]

Dan Christensen <jdc+news@uwo.ca> writes:

> Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes:
>
>> Nnfolder is also self-contained now.  Not tested much, so watch out.
>
> 1) `ESC-g' on an nnfolder group leaves "Updating marks for <group>..."
>    in the minibuffer, even when it is finished.
>
> 2) Only some of my nnfolder groups get .mrk files associated to them.
>    Most do not.  This is probably because of something weird in my
>    set-up.  In .newsrc.eld, I have:
>
>      (setq gnus-server-alist '(("archive" nnfolder "") ("" nnfolder "")))

I figured out 2).  The groups without .mrk files were at level 5, and
my set-up only has gnus update groups at level <= 3 by default.  
Doing `5 g' created all the .mrk files.

I'm still curious why my nnfolder groups come with various servers:
"nnfolder:", (nnfolder "") and "archive".  What's the difference
between these?  Can they be unified?  Is there a problem keeping them
separate?  All the files are stored in one directory, and my server
buffer only shows one nnfolder server.  A group created by moving an
article to a non-existent group is created with the "archive" server.

Dan

Re: self contained nnfolder

[Kai Großjohann]

Dan Christensen <jdc+news@uwo.ca> writes:

>      (setq gnus-server-alist '(("archive" nnfolder "") ("" nnfolder "")))

Don't let two servers share the same directory.  Unless, that is, you
want to be strange on purpose.

kai
-- 
Symbol's function definition is void: signature

Re: self contained nnfolder

[Kai Großjohann]

Dan Christensen <jdc@uwo.ca> writes:

> I'm still curious why my nnfolder groups come with various servers:
> "nnfolder:", (nnfolder "") and "archive".  What's the difference
> between these?  Can they be unified?

I think it is best to always use strings for the server that a group
belongs to.  That is, replace all occurrences of (nnfolder "") with
"nnfolder:", using `G e' (or by editing .newsrc.eld directly).

Then you can change the server parameters on the fly, either by going
in the server buffer with ^ and hitting e on the server, or by
changing the entry in gnus-secondary-select-methods.  For example, I
used to access several groups from a foreign server using an
rlogin-like program.  But now I can access the server directly.  So
all I needed to do was to go to the server buffer and hit e on the
server to replace

(nntp "quimby"
      (nntp-address "gateway")
      (nntp-rlogin-program "ssh")
      ...)

with

(nntp "quimby" (nntp-address "quimby.gnus.org"))

(Well, to tell the truth I had the bad thing before -- the `G e'
output was a list.  So I first changed that into a string.  But _from
now on_, if I ever need to frob the server parameters, I don't need to
go to each group.)

kai
-- 
Symbol's function definition is void: signature

Re: self contained nnfolder

[Dan Christensen]

Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes:

> Dan Christensen <jdc+news@uwo.ca> writes:
>
>>      (setq gnus-server-alist '(("archive" nnfolder "") ("" nnfolder "")))
>
> Don't let two servers share the same directory.  Unless, that is, you
> want to be strange on purpose.

I guess I was hoping that the above meant that "archive" and "" were
in fact the *same* server, i.e. both were names for the server
(nnfolder "").  Is that not how it works?

I only want to have one nnfolder server.  But the archive server seems
to have a life of its own, and groups created by moving articles to
a non-existent group end up on that server.  That's why I did the
above.  Is there some way to have only one nnfolder server?

I only have one listed in the server buffer and
gnus-secondary-select-methods is set to ((nnfolder "")).

Dan

Re: self contained nnfolder

[Paul Jarc]

Dan Christensen <jdc@uwo.ca> wrote:
> Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes:
>> Dan Christensen <jdc+news@uwo.ca> writes:
>>>      (setq gnus-server-alist '(("archive" nnfolder "") ("" nnfolder "")))
>>
>> Don't let two servers share the same directory.  Unless, that is, you
>> want to be strange on purpose.
> 
> I guess I was hoping that the above meant that "archive" and "" were
> in fact the *same* server, i.e. both were names for the server
> (nnfolder "").  Is that not how it works?

I don't think it works that way.  If you really want a single select
method to appear twice in gnus-server-alist, then assuming it's
possible at all, I think this would be the way to do it:
(let ((method '(nnfolder "")))
  (setq gnus-server-alist `(("archive" . ,method) ("" . ,method))))

I don't know whether Gnus would preserve this structure when
re-writing .newsrc.eld, though.

> Is there some way to have only one nnfolder server?
> 
> I only have one listed in the server buffer and
> gnus-secondary-select-methods is set to ((nnfolder "")).

First do like Kai said and make sure all your groups identify their
server by "nnfolder:" (or by "archive" or "", depending on which of
those names you want to end up with)  and not by select method.  Next
make sure all your Gcc-producing configuration stuff uses fully
qualifed group names.  Edit your .gnus to make
gnus-message-archive-method nil; gnus-secondary-select-methods should
also be nil, or, if you want your foreign nnfolder server to also be
secondary, use '("nnfolder:").  Edit your .newsrc.eld (while Gnus is
not running) to remove whichever entry from gnus-server-alist you
don't want to use.

I think the above should work if you don't use
gnus-message-archive-group.  If you do, then
gnus-message-archive-method must be non-nil.  It might work to set it
to "nnfolder:"; I'm not sure.  If it has to be a select method and not
a server name, then use the select method that is
(cdr (car gnus-server-alist)).

I'm not sure what happens if you edit your foreign server and it
becomes different from g-m-a-m.  I think Gnus looks in
gnus-server-alist, and if there is already a method there with the
same backend and address that g-m-a-m has, then it uses that method in
place of g-m-a-m.  So you don't have to worry about keeping g-m-a-m up
to date.  But I might be wrong, and if you ever change the backend or
address of your server, g-m-a-m will produce a new foreign server.  So
it's best not to set g-m-a-m to a select method if you can help it.

I think.


paul

Re: self contained nnfolder

[Paul Jarc]

Dan Christensen <jdc@uwo.ca> wrote:
> I'm still curious why my nnfolder groups come with various servers:
> "nnfolder:", (nnfolder "") and "archive".  What's the difference
> between these?

"nnfolder:" and "archive" are both strings identifying your
(nnfolder "") method; see my response to Kai.  The method itself
should always be specified in full (i.e., including all server
parameters) whenever it is used, but it should only be used once, in
one of gnus-select-method, gnus-secondary-select-methods, or
gnus-server-alist.  All other places that identify your server should
use one of the string forms.  A string form should also be used in
gnus-secondary-select-methods if the method is already in
gnus-server-alist (i.e., it's foreign).

Now maybe you're wondering which form of string identifier to use.
The advantage of "nnfolder:" is that it works for all kinds of servers
(primary, secondary, and foreign).  But if you commit to using a
foreign server, you can use the "archive" or "" name; the advantage
there is that you can change the select method's address (the string
after the backend), and the "archive" or "" name will still work.
(You can avoid the need for this, though, by explicitly using
whichever server parameter corresponds to the address, if any - e.g.,
nntp-address.)  The "nnfolder:" identification would have to be
updated to use the new address.  Conceivably, you might even be able
to change the foreign method's backend and still use the same
"archive" name, but there might well be problems with that.

> Can they be unified?  Is there a problem keeping them separate?  All
> the files are stored in one directory, and my server buffer only
> shows one nnfolder server.

I think you have only one select method, as far as Gnus is concerned.
You're specifying it in multiple places, though, which I imagine might
cause some trouble, especially if you ever change some server
parameters, so it'd be good to remove all but one, or replace them
with one of the string identifiers.

> A group created by moving an article to a non-existent group is
> created with the "archive" server.

I think that's because the "archive" name appears first in your
gnus-server-alist.  Gnus knows which method to put the group in, and
when it looks for the method's server name in gnus-server-alist,
"archive" is the first one it finds.


paul

Re: self contained nnfolder

[Simon Josefsson]

Dan Christensen <jdc+news@uwo.ca> writes:

> 1) `ESC-g' on an nnfolder group leaves "Updating marks for <group>..."
>    in the minibuffer, even when it is finished.

Fixed (for nnml as well), thanks.

>    Can anyone explain why some groups get .mrk files and some don't?

If the backend is never invoked for a group, it doesn't have a chance
to create a file for that group.

Re: self contained nnfolder

[Kai Großjohann]

prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes:

> I think the above should work if you don't use
> gnus-message-archive-group.  If you do, then
> gnus-message-archive-method must be non-nil.  It might work to set
> it to "nnfolder:"; I'm not sure.

If it doesn't work to use a string, then this is a bug which should be
fixed, IMVHO.

kai
-- 
Symbol's function definition is void: signature

Re: self contained nnfolder

[Dan Christensen]

prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes:

> Dan Christensen <jdc@uwo.ca> wrote:
> > Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes:
>>> Dan Christensen <jdc+news@uwo.ca> writes:
>>>>      (setq gnus-server-alist '(("archive" nnfolder "") ("" nnfolder "")))
>>>
>>> Don't let two servers share the same directory.  Unless, that is, you
>>> want to be strange on purpose.
>> 
>> I guess I was hoping that the above meant that "archive" and "" were
>> in fact the *same* server, i.e. both were names for the server
>> (nnfolder "").  Is that not how it works?
>
> I don't think it works that way. 
>
>> Is there some way to have only one nnfolder server?
>> 
>> I only have one listed in the server buffer and
>> gnus-secondary-select-methods is set to ((nnfolder "")).
>
> First do like Kai said and make sure all your groups identify their
> server by "nnfolder:" (or by "archive" or "", depending on which of
> those names you want to end up with)  and not by select method.  

I changed all groups to use "nnfolder:" and that worked.

> Next
> make sure all your Gcc-producing configuration stuff uses fully
> qualifed group names.

Already so.

> gnus-secondary-select-methods should
> also be nil, or, if you want your foreign nnfolder server to also be
> secondary, use '("nnfolder:").  

This didn't work.  I got an error that "nnfolder:" wasn't a list.
(And I did include the parentheses around it.)  So I've set
gnus-secondary-select-methods to ((nnfolder "")).  Will this
cause me some problems?

> Edit your .newsrc.eld (while Gnus is
> not running) to remove whichever entry from gnus-server-alist you
> don't want to use.

I don't want to use "archive", but when I removed it from
gnus-server-alist I got an error message when Gnus started, even
though the string `archive' didn't appear anywhere in my .newsrc.eld
or my .gnus.  When I remove the "" entry, everything was fine.
Is this a bug in gnus?  It seems to have `archive' hardcoded
somewhere.

> Edit your .gnus to make
> gnus-message-archive-method nil; 

> I think the above should work if you don't use
> gnus-message-archive-group.  If you do, then
> gnus-message-archive-method must be non-nil.  It might work to set it
> to "nnfolder:"; I'm not sure.  If it has to be a select method and not
> a server name, then use the select method that is
> (cdr (car gnus-server-alist)).

I've got it set to (nnfolder "").

If someone could write an overview of this stuff in the manual,
that would be great.  I find it incredibly confusing, even after
reading all of the messages here.

-- 
Dan Christensen
jdc+news@uwo.ca

Re: self contained nnfolder

[Kai Großjohann]

Dan Christensen <jdc+news@uwo.ca> writes:

> prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes:
>
>> gnus-secondary-select-methods should
>> also be nil, or, if you want your foreign nnfolder server to also be
>> secondary, use '("nnfolder:").  
>
> This didn't work.  I got an error that "nnfolder:" wasn't a list.
> (And I did include the parentheses around it.)  So I've set
> gnus-secondary-select-methods to ((nnfolder "")).  Will this
> cause me some problems?

Hm.  You have (setq gnus-secondary-select-methods '("nnfolder:"))?
And that doesn't work?  Strange, I remember somebody doing something
similar, and it worked back then.

>> Edit your .newsrc.eld (while Gnus is
>> not running) to remove whichever entry from gnus-server-alist you
>> don't want to use.
>
> I don't want to use "archive", but when I removed it from
> gnus-server-alist I got an error message when Gnus started, even
> though the string `archive' didn't appear anywhere in my .newsrc.eld
> or my .gnus.  When I remove the "" entry, everything was fine.
> Is this a bug in gnus?  It seems to have `archive' hardcoded
> somewhere.

I think normally people aren't supposed to set gnus-server-alist
manually.  I think Gnus looks is there is an archive server when it
starts up.  If an archive server is missing, it creates one.  Now,
maybe you set gnus-server-alist after Gnus created the archive server?
Then Gnus got very confused that the archive server was missing even
after it created it.

See the variable gnus-message-archive-method.  But you already know
about that.

>> Edit your .gnus to make
>> gnus-message-archive-method nil; 
>
>> I think the above should work if you don't use
>> gnus-message-archive-group.  If you do, then
>> gnus-message-archive-method must be non-nil.  It might work to set it
>> to "nnfolder:"; I'm not sure.  If it has to be a select method and not
>> a server name, then use the select method that is
>> (cdr (car gnus-server-alist)).
>
> I've got it set to (nnfolder "").

Hm.  No, that doesn't sound right.  Or is (nnfolder "") without
further parameters your normal mail select method?  Then it could be
right.  But then, when you change your mail select method, you'll want
to change gnus-message-archive-method, too.

> If someone could write an overview of this stuff in the manual,
> that would be great.  I find it incredibly confusing, even after
> reading all of the messages here.

I think that you were working around the way Gnus wants to work, by
setting gnus-server-alist manually.  Maybe it is possible to achieve
what you want to achieve without dragging Gnus kicking and screaming
through your .gnus file?

kai
-- 
Symbol's function definition is void: signature

Re: self contained nnfolder

[Paul Jarc]

Dan Christensen <jdc+news@uwo.ca> wrote:
> prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes:
>> gnus-secondary-select-methods should
>> also be nil, or, if you want your foreign nnfolder server to also be
>> secondary, use '("nnfolder:").  
> 
> This didn't work.  I got an error that "nnfolder:" wasn't a list.

Hm.  Well, do you really need it to be both foreign and secondary?
If it's foreign only, then Gnus won't check it for new groups, I
think.  If it's secondary only, then you have to change it by editing
your .gnus, not in the *Server* buffer.

> So I've set gnus-secondary-select-methods to ((nnfolder "")).  Will
> this cause me some problems?

I'm not sure.  But that's what it was when you started, right?  So at
least you wan't be any worse off.

>> Edit your .newsrc.eld (while Gnus is
>> not running) to remove whichever entry from gnus-server-alist you
>> don't want to use.
> 
> I don't want to use "archive", but when I removed it from
> gnus-server-alist I got an error message when Gnus started, even
> though the string `archive' didn't appear anywhere in my .newsrc.eld
> or my .gnus.

I should have said that you shouldn't try restarting Gnus at this
point - you also need to fix gnus-message-archive-method first.

> I've got it set to (nnfolder "").

Looking at the code now, the default seems to be "archive", wihchi is
a server name, so "nnfolder:" ought to work.

So if you quit Gnus, set g-m-a-m, edit .newsrc.eld so
gnus-server-alist uses the "" name and not "archive", and restart
Gnus, then does it work?


paul

Re: self contained nnfolder

[Paul Jarc]

Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) wrote:
> Dan Christensen <jdc+news@uwo.ca> writes:
>> I don't want to use "archive", but when I removed it from
>> gnus-server-alist I got an error message when Gnus started, even
>> though the string `archive' didn't appear anywhere in my .newsrc.eld
>> or my .gnus.  When I remove the "" entry, everything was fine.
>> Is this a bug in gnus?  It seems to have `archive' hardcoded
>> somewhere.
> 
> I think normally people aren't supposed to set gnus-server-alist
> manually.

I think he's only eding it in his .newsrc.eld when Gnus was not
running, like I told him to.  Was that bad advice?  He says Gnus shows
only one server in the *Server* buffer, so there didn't seem to be any
other way.


paul

Re: self contained nnfolder

[Dan Christensen]

Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes:

> Dan Christensen <jdc+news@uwo.ca> writes:
>
>> prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes:
>>
>>> gnus-secondary-select-methods should
>>> also be nil, or, if you want your foreign nnfolder server to also be
>>> secondary, use '("nnfolder:").  
>>
>> This didn't work.  I got an error that "nnfolder:" wasn't a list.
>> (And I did include the parentheses around it.)  So I've set
>> gnus-secondary-select-methods to ((nnfolder "")).  Will this
>> cause me some problems?
>
> Hm.  You have (setq gnus-secondary-select-methods '("nnfolder:"))?
> And that doesn't work?  

Nope.  Here's the backtrace.  (I tried to load gnus.el to get a
better backtrace, but got an error about gnuserv-start when doing
so.)

Debugger entered--Lisp error: (wrong-type-argument listp "nnfolder:")
  gnus-server-to-method("nnfolder:")
  #[(m) "\b;ƒH\0Ä\b\x19\x1a	;ƒ\x14\0Å	!‚F\0	\všƒ\x1e\0\v‚F\0	@;ƒ/\0\nƒ/\0Æ\n	\"‚F\0	ƒC\0\n„C\0Ç	!ÈšƒC\0	‚F\0É	!*‡\b‡" [m method group gnus-select-method nil gnus-server-to-method gnus-server-extend-method cadr "" gnus-server-add-address] 3]("nnfolder:")
  mapcar(#[(m) "\b;ƒH\0Ä\b\x19\x1a	;ƒ\x14\0Å	!‚F\0	\všƒ\x1e\0\v‚F\0	@;ƒ/\0\nƒ/\0Æ\n	\"‚F\0	ƒC\0\n„C\0Ç	!ÈšƒC\0	‚F\0É	!*‡\b‡" [m method group gnus-select-method nil gnus-server-to-method gnus-server-extend-method cadr "" gnus-server-add-address] 3] ("nnfolder:" "archive"))
  gnus-read-active-file(nil t)
  gnus-setup-news(nil nil t)
  byte-code("\b„\x0e\0	„\x0e\0Æ ˆ‚O\0ÇÈ!ˆÉ\n!\x13\f„\x1e\0\rƒ!\0Ê ˆ\x0e\x19ƒ.\0Ë ˆÌÍÎ\"ˆÏÐ\x0e\x1a\b#ˆÇÑ!ˆÒ ˆÓ\x0e\x1a!ˆÔ ˆÕÖ!ˆ× ˆÇØ!ˆÐ‡" [dont-connect did-connect gnus-startup-file gnus-current-startup-file gnus-slave gnus-use-dribble-file gnus-group-quit gnus-run-hooks gnus-startup-hook gnus-make-newsrc-file gnus-dribble-read-file bbb-login add-hook gnus-summary-mode-hook gnus-grouplens-mode gnus-setup-news nil gnus-setup-news-hook gnus-start-draft-setup gnus-group-list-groups gnus-group-first-unread-group gnus-configure-windows group gnus-group-set-mode-line gnus-started-hook gnus-use-grouplens level] 4)
  gnus-1(nil t nil)
  gnus(nil t)
  jdc-gnus-no-server()
  jdc-gnus()
  call-interactively(jdc-gnus)

>>> Edit your .newsrc.eld (while Gnus is
>>> not running) to remove whichever entry from gnus-server-alist you
>>> don't want to use.
>>
>> I don't want to use "archive", but when I removed it from
>> gnus-server-alist I got an error message when Gnus started, even
>> though the string `archive' didn't appear anywhere in my .newsrc.eld
>> or my .gnus.  When I remove the "" entry, everything was fine.
>> Is this a bug in gnus?  It seems to have `archive' hardcoded
>> somewhere.
>
> I think normally people aren't supposed to set gnus-server-alist
> manually.  

Yes, but mine seems wrong, and I'm just trying to get it back to
a sane state.

> I think Gnus looks is there is an archive server when it
> starts up.  If an archive server is missing, it creates one.  Now,
> maybe you set gnus-server-alist after Gnus created the archive server?
> Then Gnus got very confused that the archive server was missing even
> after it created it.

Gnus shouldn't have any record that it existed before, since there
is no mention of the word archive in any of my gnus related files.

>>> Edit your .gnus to make
>>> gnus-message-archive-method nil; 
>>
>> I've got it set to (nnfolder "").
>
> Hm.  No, that doesn't sound right.  Or is (nnfolder "") without
> further parameters your normal mail select method?  

Yes, it's my normal select method.  (I do have lots of nnfolder
and nnmail variables set globally, but (I think) I only have one
mail server, so hopefully that's not a problem.)

Dan

Re: self contained nnfolder

[Dan Christensen]

prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes:

> Dan Christensen <jdc+news@uwo.ca> wrote:
> > prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes:
>>> gnus-secondary-select-methods should
>>> also be nil, or, if you want your foreign nnfolder server to also be
>>> secondary, use '("nnfolder:").  
>> 
>> This didn't work.  I got an error that "nnfolder:" wasn't a list.
>
> Hm.  Well, do you really need it to be both foreign and secondary?

Probably not.  I'll try making gnus-secondary-select-methods nil.

>>> Edit your .newsrc.eld (while Gnus is
>>> not running) to remove whichever entry from gnus-server-alist you
>>> don't want to use.
>> 
>> I don't want to use "archive", but when I removed it from
>> gnus-server-alist I got an error message when Gnus started, even
>> though the string `archive' didn't appear anywhere in my .newsrc.eld
>> or my .gnus.
>
> I should have said that you shouldn't try restarting Gnus at this
> point - you also need to fix gnus-message-archive-method first.

I tried that too, but it didn't help.  But I noticed something funny
this time:  if I start gnus with `M-x gnus' or `M-x gnus-no-server',
I don't get an error about the archive server.  But I usually start
it via a custom function which runs (gnus nil t), and when I do
this I get the following backtrace:

Debugger entered--Lisp error: (wrong-type-argument symbolp (nnfolder "archive" (nnfolder-directory "~/Mail/archive") (nnfolder-active-file "~/Mail/archive/active") (nnfolder-get-new-mail nil) (nnfolder-inhibit-expiry t)))
  gnus-server-opened(((nnfolder "archive" (nnfolder-directory "~/Mail/archive") (nnfolder-active-file "~/Mail/archive/active") (nnfolder-get-new-mail nil) (nnfolder-inhibit-expiry t))))
  gnus-check-server(((nnfolder "archive" (nnfolder-directory "~/Mail/archive") (nnfolder-active-file "~/Mail/archive/active") (nnfolder-get-new-mail nil) (nnfolder-inhibit-expiry t))))
  gnus-read-active-file-1(((nnfolder "archive" (nnfolder-directory "~/Mail/archive") (nnfolder-active-file "~/Mail/archive/active") (nnfolder-get-new-mail nil) (nnfolder-inhibit-expiry t))) nil)
  gnus-read-active-file(nil t)
  gnus-setup-news(nil nil t)
  byte-code("\b„\x0e\0	„\x0e\0Æ ˆ‚O\0ÇÈ!ˆÉ\n!\x13\f„\x1e\0\rƒ!\0Ê ˆ\x0e\x19ƒ.\0Ë ˆÌÍÎ\"ˆÏÐ\x0e\x1a\b#ˆÇÑ!ˆÒ ˆÓ\x0e\x1a!ˆÔ ˆÕÖ!ˆ× ˆÇØ!ˆÐ‡" [dont-connect did-connect gnus-startup-file gnus-current-startup-file gnus-slave gnus-use-dribble-file gnus-group-quit gnus-run-hooks gnus-startup-hook gnus-make-newsrc-file gnus-dribble-read-file bbb-login add-hook gnus-summary-mode-hook gnus-grouplens-mode gnus-setup-news nil gnus-setup-news-hook gnus-start-draft-setup gnus-group-list-groups gnus-group-first-unread-group gnus-configure-windows group gnus-group-set-mode-line gnus-started-hook gnus-use-grouplens level] 4)
  gnus-1(nil t nil)
  gnus(nil t)
  eval((gnus nil t))
  eval-expression((gnus nil t) nil)
  call-interactively(eval-expression)

I'm not sure why gnus behaves differently in this case.

This is with g-m-arch-method set to "nnfolder:" and gnus-server-alist
set to '(("" nnfolder "")).  Maybe I should just let my nnfolder
server be named "archive", but somehow I'd rather have it be my own
private server, not one that gnus is assuming has any special uses.

Dan

-- 
Dan Christensen
jdc+news@uwo.ca

Re: self contained nnfolder

[Kai Großjohann]

Dan Christensen <jdc+news@uwo.ca> writes:

> Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes:
>
>> Hm.  You have (setq gnus-secondary-select-methods '("nnfolder:"))?
>> And that doesn't work?  
>
> Nope.  Here's the backtrace.  (I tried to load gnus.el to get a
> better backtrace, but got an error about gnuserv-start when doing
> so.)

Hm.  Looks like a bug, or a missing feature, at least.

>> I think normally people aren't supposed to set gnus-server-alist
>> manually.  
>
> Yes, but mine seems wrong, and I'm just trying to get it back to
> a sane state.

Ah, you're editing your .newsrc.eld.  Now I see.  I thought you had
(setq gnus-server-alist ...) in your .gnus file.

>> I think Gnus looks is there is an archive server when it
>> starts up.  If an archive server is missing, it creates one.  Now,
>> maybe you set gnus-server-alist after Gnus created the archive server?
>> Then Gnus got very confused that the archive server was missing even
>> after it created it.
>
> Gnus shouldn't have any record that it existed before, since there
> is no mention of the word archive in any of my gnus related files.

Gnus creates the archive server by default!  (If
gnus-message-archive-group is non-nil.)  See the variable
gnus-message-archive-method.

So even if you don't mention `archive' anywhere in your init files, it
might still be there.

>>>> Edit your .gnus to make
>>>> gnus-message-archive-method nil; 
>>>
>>> I've got it set to (nnfolder "").
>>
>> Hm.  No, that doesn't sound right.  Or is (nnfolder "") without
>> further parameters your normal mail select method?  
>
> Yes, it's my normal select method.  (I do have lots of nnfolder
> and nnmail variables set globally, but (I think) I only have one
> mail server, so hopefully that's not a problem.)

I see.

I think the best way to remove the superfluous archive server is to
tell Gnus to use a different server, instead.  For example:

(setq gnus-message-archive-method (car gnus-secondary-select-methods))

Does that work?

kai
-- 
Symbol's function definition is void: signature

Re: self contained nnfolder

[Kai Großjohann]

prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes:

> Dan Christensen <jdc+news@uwo.ca> wrote:
> > prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes:
>>> gnus-secondary-select-methods should
>>> also be nil, or, if you want your foreign nnfolder server to also be
>>> secondary, use '("nnfolder:").  
>> 
>> This didn't work.  I got an error that "nnfolder:" wasn't a list.
>
> Hm.  Well, do you really need it to be both foreign and secondary?
> If it's foreign only, then Gnus won't check it for new groups, I
> think.  If it's secondary only, then you have to change it by editing
> your .gnus, not in the *Server* buffer.

I think that the following is permissible:

(1) Create a server foo via the server buffer.
(2) (add-to-list 'gnus-secondary-select-methods "foo")

But maybe step (2) needs server names, not the "backend:foo" thingy.

kai
-- 
Symbol's function definition is void: signature

Re: self contained nnfolder

[Dan Christensen]

Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes:

> prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes:
>
>> Dan Christensen <jdc+news@uwo.ca> wrote:
>> > prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes:
>>>> gnus-secondary-select-methods should
>>>> also be nil, or, if you want your foreign nnfolder server to also be
>>>> secondary, use '("nnfolder:").  
>>> 
>>> This didn't work.  I got an error that "nnfolder:" wasn't a list.
>>
>> Hm.  Well, do you really need it to be both foreign and secondary?
>> If it's foreign only, then Gnus won't check it for new groups, I
>> think.  If it's secondary only, then you have to change it by editing
>> your .gnus, not in the *Server* buffer.
>
> I think that the following is permissible:
>
> (1) Create a server foo via the server buffer.
> (2) (add-to-list 'gnus-secondary-select-methods "foo")

I tried the following settings for g-secondary-select-methods:

      '((nnfolder "")) 
      '("nnfolder:")
      '("")
      nil

The first one works for me in all the cases I tested.  The second
never works.  The third and forth gave me errors when "nnfolder:" was
used in my .newsrc as the server for each group in gnus-newsrc-alist,
but is ok when "" is used as the server for each group.  Here's an
example of the backtrace I get when I start gnus with
gnus-secondary-select-methods set to nil and one of my groups
(nnfolder:house) has "nnfolder:" as its method:

Debugger entered--Lisp error: (error "Trying to require a method that doesn't exist")
  signal(error ("Trying to require a method that doesn't exist"))
  error("Trying to require a method that doesn't exist")
  gnus-server-opened((nil ""))
  gnus-activate-group("nnfolder:house" scan)
  gnus-get-unread-articles(2)
  gnus-setup-news(nil 2 t)
  byte-code("\b„\x0e\0	„\x0e\0Æ ˆ‚O\0ÇÈ!ˆÉ\n!\x13\f„\x1e\0\rƒ!\0Ê ˆ\x0e\x19ƒ.\0Ë ˆÌÍÎ\"ˆÏÐ\x0e\x1a\b#ˆÇÑ!ˆÒ ˆÓ\x0e\x1a!ˆÔ ˆÕÖ!ˆ× ˆÇØ!ˆÐ‡" [dont-connect did-connect gnus-startup-file gnus-current-startup-file gnus-slave gnus-use-dribble-file gnus-group-quit gnus-run-hooks gnus-startup-hook gnus-make-newsrc-file gnus-dribble-read-file bbb-login add-hook gnus-summary-mode-hook gnus-grouplens-mode gnus-setup-news nil gnus-setup-news-hook gnus-start-draft-setup gnus-group-list-groups gnus-group-first-unread-group gnus-configure-windows group gnus-group-set-mode-line gnus-started-hook gnus-use-grouplens level] 4)
  gnus-1(2 t nil)
  gnus(2 t nil)
  gnus-no-server-1(nil nil)
  gnus-no-server(nil)
* call-interactively(gnus-no-server)
  execute-extended-command(nil)
  call-interactively(execute-extended-command)

If I change nnfolder:house's method to "" this error goes away.
This seems pretty strange to me.

So now I've made all my groups use "" and have
gnus-secondary-select-methods set to '("").

-- 
Dan Christensen
jdc+news@uwo.ca

Re: self contained nnfolder

[Dan Christensen]

Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes:

> Dan Christensen <jdc+news@uwo.ca> writes:
>
>> Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes:
>>
>>> I think Gnus looks if there is an archive server when it
>>> starts up.  If an archive server is missing, it creates one.  Now,
>>> maybe you set gnus-server-alist after Gnus created the archive server?
>>> Then Gnus got very confused that the archive server was missing even
>>> after it created it.
>>
>> Gnus shouldn't have any record that it existed before, since there
>> is no mention of the word archive in any of my gnus related files.
>
> Gnus creates the archive server by default!  (If
> gnus-message-archive-group is non-nil.)  See the variable
> gnus-message-archive-method.
>
> So even if you don't mention `archive' anywhere in your init files, it
> might still be there.

Yes, but you said that Gnus got confused because it knew it created
it, but I deleted it.  But there is no way that Gnus can know that it
created it, as far as I can tell, since I've deleted all traces of it.

>>>>> Edit your .gnus to make
>>>>> gnus-message-archive-method nil; 
>>>>
>>>> I've got it set to (nnfolder "").
>>>
>>> Hm.  No, that doesn't sound right.  Or is (nnfolder "") without
>>> further parameters your normal mail select method?  
>>
>> Yes, it's my normal select method.  (I do have lots of nnfolder
>> and nnmail variables set globally, but (I think) I only have one
>> mail server, so hopefully that's not a problem.)
>
> I see.
>
> I think the best way to remove the superfluous archive server is to
> tell Gnus to use a different server, instead.  For example:
>
> (setq gnus-message-archive-method (car gnus-secondary-select-methods))
>
> Does that work?

No, as I've described.  In all of my testing, I have had
gnus-m-archive-method set to one thing or another (never left
unset), and still gnus gives me lots of errors now.  I don't
know how to fix it so I can proceed without errors.  Somehow
my weird set-up with two servers with the same name worked,
but I'd prefer to not go back to that.

-- 
Dan Christensen
jdc+news@uwo.ca

Re: self contained nnfolder

[Dan Christensen]

Dan Christensen <jdc+news@uwo.ca> writes:

> prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes:
>
>> Dan Christensen <jdc+news@uwo.ca> wrote:
>> > prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes:
>
>>>> Edit your .newsrc.eld (while Gnus is
>>>> not running) to remove whichever entry from gnus-server-alist you
>>>> don't want to use.
>>> 
>>> I don't want to use "archive", but when I removed it from
>>> gnus-server-alist I got an error message when Gnus started, even
>>> though the string `archive' didn't appear anywhere in my .newsrc.eld
>>> or my .gnus.
>>
>> I should have said that you shouldn't try restarting Gnus at this
>> point - you also need to fix gnus-message-archive-method first.
>
> I tried that too, but it didn't help.  But I noticed something funny
> this time:  if I start gnus with `M-x gnus' or `M-x gnus-no-server',
> I don't get an error about the archive server.  But I usually start
> it via a custom function which runs (gnus nil t), and when I do
> this I get the following backtrace:

Unfortunately, further exploring shows that using `M-x gnus' or
`M-x gnus-no-server' only delays the error.  Now it shows up when
I go to the server buffer!  Help!

Debugger entered--Lisp error: (wrong-type-argument symbolp (nnfolder "archive" (nnfolder-directory "~/Mail/archive") (nnfolder-active-file "~/Mail/archive/active") (nnfolder-get-new-mail nil) (nnfolder-inhibit-expiry t)))
  gnus-server-opened(((nnfolder "archive" (nnfolder-directory "~/Mail/archive") (nnfolder-active-file "~/Mail/archive/active") (nnfolder-get-new-mail nil) (nnfolder-inhibit-expiry t))))
  gnus-server-insert-server-line("archive" ((nnfolder "archive" (nnfolder-directory "~/Mail/archive") (nnfolder-active-file "~/Mail/archive/active") (nnfolder-get-new-mail nil) (nnfolder-inhibit-expiry t))))
  gnus-server-prepare()
  gnus-enter-server-buffer()
  gnus-group-enter-server-mode()
  call-interactively(gnus-group-enter-server-mode)

-- 
Dan Christensen
jdc+news@uwo.ca

Re: self contained nnfolder

[Dan Christensen]

Dan Christensen <jdc+news@uwo.ca> writes:

> I tried the following settings for g-secondary-select-methods:
>
>       '((nnfolder "")) 
>       '("nnfolder:")
>       '("")
>       nil
>
> The first one works for me in all the cases I tested.  The second
> never works.  The third and forth gave me errors when "nnfolder:" was
> used in my .newsrc as the server for each group in gnus-newsrc-alist,
> but is ok when "" is used as the server for each group.  

It turns out that the third also makes it impossible for me to get new
mail!  (Backtrace below.)  So I've switched back to the first version.

The general advice seems to be to use strings everywhere.  While that
may be correct in principle, in practice it seems to just create
errors everywhere.  I really think that for both users and developers,
a document explaining the details about server methods would be very
useful.  I have a feeling that there are some bugs in gnus caused
because not every developer fully understands how these things are
handled (which is not surprising given their complexity!).

Here's the backtrace from using the third setting above:

Debugger entered--Lisp error: (wrong-type-argument listp "")
  nnmail-cache-primary-mail-backend()
  nnmail-cache-insert("<E15dvEj-0003IO-00@scratchy>")
  nnmail-check-duplication("<E15dvEj-0003IO-00@scratchy>" nnfolder-save-mail nnfolder-active-number)
  nnmail-process-unix-mail-format(nnfolder-save-mail nnfolder-active-number)
  nnmail-split-incoming("~/.emacs-mail-crash-box" nnfolder-save-mail nil nil nnfolder-active-number)
  #[(file orig-file) "Â\bÃÄ\b	š?…\x0f\0Å	Æ\"Ç%‡" [file orig-file nnmail-split-incoming nnfolder-save-mail nil nnmail-get-split-group (file :prescript ... :path "~/Mail/suck") nnfolder-active-number] 7]("~/.emacs-mail-crash-box" "~/.emacs-mail-crash-box")
  mail-source-callback(#[(file orig-file) "Â\bÃÄ\b	š?…\x0f\0Å	Æ\"Ç%‡" [file orig-file nnmail-split-incoming nnfolder-save-mail nil nnmail-get-split-group (file :prescript ... :path "~/Mail/suck") nnfolder-active-number] 7] "~/.emacs-mail-crash-box")
  mail-source-fetch((file :prescript (quote jdc-suck) :path "~/Mail/suck") #[(file orig-file) "Â\bÃÄ\b	š?…\x0f\0Å	Æ\"Ç%‡" [file orig-file nnmail-split-incoming nnfolder-save-mail nil nnmail-get-split-group (file :prescript ... :path "~/Mail/suck") nnfolder-active-number] 7])
  nnmail-get-new-mail(nnfolder #[nil "\b\x19Š	…=\0	@A@‰\x1a…^[\0Ã\n!…^[\0ÄÃ\n!!)„(\0Å	@\b\"\x10‚5\0	@A@qˆÆ ˆÇp!ˆ	A‰\x11„\a\0È*‡" [nnfolder-buffer-alist bufs buffer get-buffer buffer-name delq nnfolder-save-buffer kill-buffer nil] 4] "~/Gnus/Mail" "house")
  nnfolder-request-scan("house" "")
  gnus-request-scan("nnfolder:house" (nnfolder ""))
  gnus-activate-group("nnfolder:house" scan)
  gnus-get-unread-articles(2)
  gnus-group-get-new-news(2)
  call-interactively(gnus-group-get-new-news)

-- 
Dan Christensen
jdc+news@uwo.ca

Re: self contained nnfolder

[Kai Großjohann]

Dan Christensen <jdc+news@uwo.ca> writes:

> Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes:
>
>> So even if you don't mention `archive' anywhere in your init files, it
>> might still be there.
>
> Yes, but you said that Gnus got confused because it knew it created
> it, but I deleted it.  But there is no way that Gnus can know that it
> created it, as far as I can tell, since I've deleted all traces of it.

Maybe Gnus always expects an archive server to be there, since it
creates it at startup.

>> I think the best way to remove the superfluous archive server is to
>> tell Gnus to use a different server, instead.  For example:
>>
>> (setq gnus-message-archive-method (car gnus-secondary-select-methods))
>>
>> Does that work?
>
> No, as I've described.

Hm.  Hmmm.  The first entry in gnus-secondary-select-methods, does
that look like (nnfolder "" ...) or does it look like "nnfolder:"?

I was assuming the former.

Maybe (setq gnus-message-archive-method (gnus-server-to-method (car
gnus-secondary-select-methods))) does the trick, if it's the latter.

kai
-- 
Symbol's function definition is void: signature

Re: self contained nnfolder

[Kai Großjohann]

Dan Christensen <jdc+news@uwo.ca> writes:

> The general advice seems to be to use strings everywhere.

No, at least not as far as I'm concerned.  I wanted to say that
strings everywhere would be the best *if it worked*.

I guess most people do like

    (setq gnus-secondary-select-methods '((nnfolder "")))

and don't think about it any further.

It's not clear to me whether it is better to document the current
confusing situation, or whether the situation should be changed first,
so that the documentation can be shorter.

kai
-- 
Symbol's function definition is void: signature

Re: self contained nnfolder

[Amos Gouaux]

>>>>> On Mon, 03 Sep 2001 18:34:39 +0200,
>>>>> Kai Großjohann <Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE> (kg) writes:

kg>     (setq gnus-secondary-select-methods '((nnfolder "")))

What about possibly

 (setq gnus-select-method '((nnfolder "")))

if folks don't want to automatically connect to a news server.  I
think I tried that and it didn't like that.  Was there something
about nndel?  Couldn't remember.

-- 
Amos

Re: self contained nnfolder

[Kai Großjohann]

Amos Gouaux <amos+lists.ding@utdallas.edu> writes:

> What about possibly
>
>  (setq gnus-select-method '((nnfolder "")))
>
> if folks don't want to automatically connect to a news server.  I
> think I tried that and it didn't like that.  Was there something
> about nndel?  Couldn't remember.

Slight syntax error: (setq gnus-select-method '(nnfolder ""))
Note one less pair of parens.

nndel is named nnnil.el.

Not sure where are the problems if you use nnfolder or suchlike as a
primary server.  If there are problems with this, then they are surely
bugs.  I confess for being lazy and to just circumvent the whole
issue.

kai
-- 
Symbol's function definition is void: signature

Re: self contained nnfolder

[Paul Jarc]

Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) wrote:
> Not sure where are the problems if you use nnfolder or suchlike as a
> primary server.

FWIW, I've been using nnmaildir as my primary server (and nntp as
secondary) for a long time with no problems.


paul

Re: self contained nnfolder

[Paul Jarc]

Dan Christensen <jdc+news@uwo.ca> wrote:
> The general advice seems to be to use strings everywhere.

Use strings when *referring* to servers.  Use lists when *defining*
servers.  Any given server should be defined in only one place.
Apparently, gnus-secondary-select-methods can't be used to refer to
servers defined elsewhere, so a server can't be both secondary and
foreign.  Oh, well.

I just found gnus-predefined-server-alist.  I'm not sure what it's
for.  Mine contains just a "cache" server (which I don't use):
(("cache" nnspool "cache"
  (nnspool-spool-directory "~/News/cache/")
  (nnspool-nov-directory "~/News/cache/")
  (nnspool-active-file "~/News/cache/active")))
What's in yours?


paul

Re: self contained nnfolder

[Paul Jarc]

Dan Christensen <jdc+news@uwo.ca> wrote:
> Debugger entered--Lisp error: (wrong-type-argument symbolp (nnfolder "archive" (nnfolder-directory "~/Mail/archive") (nnfolder-active-file "~/Mail/archive/active") (nnfolder-get-new-mail nil) (nnfolder-inhibit-expiry t)))
>   gnus-server-opened(((nnfolder "archive" (nnfolder-directory "~/Mail/archive") (nnfolder-active-file "~/Mail/archive/active") (nnfolder-get-new-mail nil) (nnfolder-inhibit-expiry t))))

This seems like a Gnus bug, maybe.  Gnus is (seemingly) generating
this server itself, but then hands the list to something expecting a
symbol.


paul

Re: self contained nnfolder

[Paul Jarc]

Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) wrote:
> Gnus creates the archive server by default!  (If
> gnus-message-archive-group is non-nil.)  See the variable
> gnus-message-archive-method.

I think it works like this: if gnus-message-archive-method is set to a
select method, then it gets added to gnus-server-alist if it's not
already there.

I've successfully eliminated my archive server.  I always used
fully-qualified group names in Gcc, so I just stopped using
gnus-message-archive-group, set g-m-a-m to nil, restarted Gnus, and
killed the "archive" server in the *Server* buffer.  Now my
gnus-server-alist is nil, and my *Server* buffer has no listing for
the archive server.  (But my gnus-server-line-format seems to be
clobbered when I start Gnus.  Maybe I should upgrade to a fresh
checkout.)

> So even if you don't mention `archive' anywhere in your init files, it
> might still be there.

Depends, I guess.  It is possble to get rid of it for good, if the
right piece of cruft can be found and cleaned up.


paul

Re: self contained nnfolder

[Amos Gouaux]

>>>>> On Mon, 03 Sep 2001 23:31:50 +0200,
>>>>> Kai Großjohann <Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE> (kg) writes:

kg> Slight syntax error: (setq gnus-select-method '(nnfolder ""))
kg> Note one less pair of parens.

Yeah, that works, if include

    (setq gnus-select-method
          '(nnfolder "" 
                     (nnfolder-get-new-mail nil) 
                     (nnfolder-inhibit-expiry t)))

otherwise it crashes.

I've read the info docs and combed through my ~/.newsrc.eld, but I'm
still at a loss as to why it still attempts to connect to "news" via
nntp.  No NNTP* or NEWS env.  Got (setq gnus-nntp-server nil) to be
sure.  No /etc/nntpserver.  Does it automatically look for a host
name "news"?

Oh well, will fiddle with it more later.

-- 
Amos

Re: self contained nnfolder

[Dan Christensen]

prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes:

> I just found gnus-predefined-server-alist.  I'm not sure what it's
> for.  Mine contains just a "cache" server (which I don't use):
> (("cache" nnspool "cache"
>   (nnspool-spool-directory "~/News/cache/")
>   (nnspool-nov-directory "~/News/cache/")
>   (nnspool-active-file "~/News/cache/active")))
> What's in yours?

It's pretty similar:  

gnus-predefined-server-alist's value is 
(("cache" nnspool "cache"
  (nnspool-spool-directory "~/Gnus/Cache")
  (nnspool-nov-directory "~/Gnus/Cache")
  (nnspool-active-file "~/Gnus/Cache/active")))

(I set gnus-cache-directory in my .emacs.el file.)

Dan

Re: self contained nnfolder

[Dan Christensen]

Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes:

> Hm.  Hmmm.  The first entry in gnus-secondary-select-methods, does
> that look like (nnfolder "" ...) or does it look like "nnfolder:"?
>
> I was assuming the former.

I tried (nnfolder ""), "nnfolder:", "" and nil.  The one that seems
to work best is the first one.

> Maybe (setq gnus-message-archive-method (gnus-server-to-method (car
> gnus-secondary-select-methods))) does the trick, if it's the latter.

I just tried that, and I still get the error about the archive server
not being a symbol.

-- 
Dan Christensen
jdc+news@uwo.ca

Re: self contained nnfolder

[Dan Christensen]

prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes:

> Dan Christensen <jdc+news@uwo.ca> wrote:
> > The general advice seems to be to use strings everywhere.
>
> Use strings when *referring* to servers.  Use lists when *defining*
> servers.  Any given server should be defined in only one place.
> Apparently, gnus-secondary-select-methods can't be used to refer to
> servers defined elsewhere, so a server can't be both secondary and
> foreign.  Oh, well.

If I remove my nnfolder server from gnus-secondary-select-methods
(so that list is nil), then I get other problems.  For example,
when I start with g-s-s-m nil, gnus updates the marks on my
nnfolder groups twice, and takes a lot longer to start up.
(It does some other thing differently, and more slowly, too.)
Here's what my *Messages* buffer shows.  I don't usually get all those
[2 times] things.

...
For information about the GNU Project and its goals, type C-h C-p.
Loading cl-macs...done
Loading gnus-demon...done
Loading bbdb-gnus...done
Reading /home/jdc/Gnus/.newsrc.eld...
Loading gnus-cache...done
Checking new news...
Opening nnfolder server...

nnfolder: Reading incoming mail from file... [13 times]
Saving file /home/jdc/Gnus/Mail/geg...
Wrote /home/jdc/Gnus/Mail/geg
Saving file /home/jdc/Gnus/Mail/spr...
Wrote /home/jdc/Gnus/Mail/spr
nnfolder: Reading incoming mail (13 new)...done
Updating marks for house... [2 times]
Updating marks for baldric... [2 times]
Updating marks for generic... [2 times]
Updating marks for categories... [2 times]
Updating marks for Inbox... [2 times]
Updating marks for Sent... [2 times]
Opening nndraft server...

Updating marks for cc... [2 times]
Updating marks for bugs... [2 times]
Updating marks for risks... [2 times]
Updating marks for spr... [2 times]
Updating marks for spin-foams-list... [2 times]
Updating marks for smr... [2 times]
Updating marks for ding... [2 times]
Updating marks for geg... [2 times]
Updating marks for debian.small... [2 times]
Updating marks for debian.big... [2 times]
Updating marks for western... [2 times]
Updating marks for root... [2 times]
Updating marks for spin-foams... [2 times]
Updating marks for euler-char... [2 times]
Updating marks for spam... [2 times]
Updating marks for beowulf... [2 times]
Checking new news...done

And, still, going to the server buffer gives me:

Loading gnus-srvr...done
gnus-server-insert-server-line: Wrong type argument: symbolp, (nnfolder "archive" (nnfolder-directory "~/Mail/archive") (nnfolder-active-file "~/Mail/archive/active") (nnfolder-get-new-mail nil) (nnfolder-inhibit-expiry t))

Dan

-- 
Dan Christensen
jdc+news@uwo.ca

Re: self contained nnfolder

[Dan Christensen]

prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes:

> I think it works like this: if gnus-message-archive-method is set to a
> select method, then it gets added to gnus-server-alist if it's not
> already there.
>
> I've successfully eliminated my archive server.  I always used
> fully-qualified group names in Gcc, so I just stopped using
> gnus-message-archive-group, set g-m-a-m to nil, restarted Gnus, 

Ok, I tried setting g-m-a-m to nil, something I hadn't tried
before.  But still, I get the same error about the archive server
when I try to enter the server buffer.

> Now my gnus-server-alist is nil

nil?  Oh, maybe I should remove my nnfolder server from there, and
keep it in gnus-secondary-select-methods?  I won't try this until I
hear whether it is a stupid idea or not.

-- 
Dan Christensen
jdc+news@uwo.ca

Re: self contained nnfolder

[Paul Jarc]

Dan Christensen <jdc+news@uwo.ca> wrote:
> prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes:
>> Now my gnus-server-alist is nil
> 
> nil?  Oh, maybe I should remove my nnfolder server from there, and
> keep it in gnus-secondary-select-methods?  I won't try this until I
> hear whether it is a stupid idea or not.

It's not a stupid idea, but it really ought to work either way.  So if
it works one way and not the other, then that means you've got a
problem somewhere else (either cruft in your configuration, or a Gnus
bug) that just isn't triggered in one case.


paul

Re: self contained nnfolder

[Kai Großjohann]

Amos Gouaux <amos+lists.ding@utdallas.edu> writes:

> I've read the info docs and combed through my ~/.newsrc.eld, but I'm
> still at a loss as to why it still attempts to connect to "news" via
> nntp.  No NNTP* or NEWS env.  Got (setq gnus-nntp-server nil) to be
> sure.  No /etc/nntpserver.  Does it automatically look for a host
> name "news"?

Start Gnus, hit `^'.  What do you see in the server list?  Any nntp
server there?

kai
-- 
Symbol's function definition is void: signature

Re: self contained nnfolder

[Kai Großjohann]

prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes:

> Use strings when *referring* to servers.  Use lists when *defining*
> servers.  Any given server should be defined in only one place.
> Apparently, gnus-secondary-select-methods can't be used to refer to
> servers defined elsewhere, so a server can't be both secondary and
> foreign.

But it should be possible to use gnus-secondary-select-methods to
refer to a server defined elsewhere.  I think it's even documented.
Maybe someday, somebody will find the time to find the bug.

kai
-- 
Symbol's function definition is void: signature

Re: self contained nnfolder

[Amos Gouaux]

>>>>> On Tue, 04 Sep 2001 15:41:07 +0200,
>>>>> Kai Großjohann <Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE> (kg) writes:

kg> Amos Gouaux <amos+lists.ding@utdallas.edu> writes:
>> I've read the info docs and combed through my ~/.newsrc.eld, but I'm
>> still at a loss as to why it still attempts to connect to "news" via
>> nntp.  No NNTP* or NEWS env.  Got (setq gnus-nntp-server nil) to be
>> sure.  No /etc/nntpserver.  Does it automatically look for a host
>> name "news"?

kg> Start Gnus, hit `^'.  What do you see in the server list?  Any nntp
kg> server there?

Oh, I'm afraid I was being stupid yet again.  The disadvantage of
using emacs/xemacs for as long as I have is that my init stuff is a
horrible mess.

The problem is that I was throwing everything into the
gnus-startup-hook I've been adding to over the years.  However,
these settings (gnus-select-method and gnus-secondary-select-methods)  
need to be set up before then.  Duh.  Once I pulled these out into
regular init stuff evaled before gnus is started, the phantom
nntp:news entry disappeared.  I'm not sure why it appeared at all,
but now it's gone.

These two settings are indeed confusing.  What I'm trying to do is
move critical stuff like my nnimap inbox into gnus-secondary-select-methods
and the rest into foreign groups.  I set gnus-activate-foreign-newsgroups
to 2.  Then when I want to read mail on a foreign server, I go into
the server buffer and open that server, then M-g the topic
containing the groups from that server.  At one point I was thinking
of putting my nnimap inbox in gnus-select-method, but it sounds like
some folks had difficulty with that.  Besides, with posting-styles
and such, I kinda prefer that the server name be present with all my
groups.  I've also got a couple of IMAP servers in the mix.

-- 
Amos

Re: self contained nnfolder

[Dan Christensen]

prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes:

> Dan Christensen <jdc+news@uwo.ca> wrote:
> > prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes:
>>> Now my gnus-server-alist is nil
>> 
>> nil?  Oh, maybe I should remove my nnfolder server from there, and
>> keep it in gnus-secondary-select-methods?  I won't try this until I
>> hear whether it is a stupid idea or not.
>
> It's not a stupid idea, but it really ought to work either way.  So if
> it works one way and not the other, then that means you've got a
> problem somewhere else (either cruft in your configuration, or a Gnus
> bug) that just isn't triggered in one case.

I tried setting gnus-server-alist to nil in my .newsrc.eld, and
leaving my gnus-secondary-select-methods as ((nnfolder "")).
This caused a new error on startup, with Gnus complaining:

gnus-check-server: Wrong type argument: symbolp, (nnfolder "")

So I decided to give up, and set gnus-server-alist to

    (("archive" nnfolder ""))

and manually changed all my groups from server name "" to server
name "archive".  Sure enough, Gnus started fine and I can access
the server buffer again.  But then, I looked at my .newsrc.eld
again, and what did I see but:
  
    (setq gnus-server-alist '(("archive" nnfolder "") 
                              ("" nnfolder "")))

This is how it was when this all started.  So I wasn't the one that
did this crazy naming thing, with one server having two names.
Gnus does it for some bizarre reason.

Thanks for all the help.  If anyone has any other suggestions,
let me know.

Dan

-- 
Dan Christensen
jdc+news@uwo.ca