* Re: *reproducible* lost marks with nnimap
2004-01-13 23:23 ` Simon Josefsson
@ 2004-01-13 23:27 ` David Abrahams
2004-01-13 23:27 ` David Abrahams
2004-01-15 9:38 ` Kai Grossjohann
2 siblings, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread
From: David Abrahams @ 2004-01-13 23:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes:
> David Abrahams <dave@boost-consulting.com> writes:
>
>>> Remember, flags are not synchronized with the server until you do,
>>> and the 'q' has successfully exited the group.
>>
>> I understand you're saying that's how it works, but:
>>
>> 1. From a usability standpoint, it's just crazy that messages I've
>> read become unread when I ask the summary to update with `M-g'.
>> What possible purpose could that serve?
>
> You can still press 'q' in the summary buffer to save your flag
> changes (including which articles you read).
But it takes a long time to do that (possibly because I have a great
many messages in my INBOX?), and closes my summary buffer. That's a
big interruption.
> Pressing M-g shouldn't change this. This isn't nnimap specific, so
> changing this probably should be discussed by itself first.
Maybe so. Be my guest, everyone! ;-)
>> 2. After the server times out and says goodbye, nnimap often fails
>> to re-establish the connection until after *two* tries. The
>> result, apparently, is that even pressing `q' sometimes drops
>> marks because flag synchronization fails and there's no retry.
>
> This sounds like a nnimap bug, and I see it too. I think it only
> applies to non-native network connections (e.g., via tls, ssh etc).
> Fixing this problem might make you not perceive the first problem as a
> problem, so it is important. It hasn't annoyed me enough to debug
> yet, if anyone else like to debug it, that would be good.
It has annoyed me enough, for a very long time, but I got lost in the
tangle of Gnus and ran out of time.
It didn't seem to happen when I used Gnus under XEmacs, FWIW.
--
Dave Abrahams
Boost Consulting
www.boost-consulting.com
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: *reproducible* lost marks with nnimap
2004-01-13 23:23 ` Simon Josefsson
2004-01-13 23:27 ` David Abrahams
@ 2004-01-13 23:27 ` David Abrahams
2004-01-15 9:38 ` Kai Grossjohann
2 siblings, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread
From: David Abrahams @ 2004-01-13 23:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes:
> David Abrahams <dave@boost-consulting.com> writes:
>
>>> Remember, flags are not synchronized with the server until you do,
>>> and the 'q' has successfully exited the group.
>>
>> I understand you're saying that's how it works, but:
>>
>> 1. From a usability standpoint, it's just crazy that messages I've
>> read become unread when I ask the summary to update with `M-g'.
>> What possible purpose could that serve?
>
> You can still press 'q' in the summary buffer to save your flag
> changes (including which articles you read).
But it takes a long time to do that (possibly because I have a great
many messages in my INBOX?), and closes my summary buffer. That's a
big interruption.
> Pressing M-g shouldn't change this. This isn't nnimap specific, so
> changing this probably should be discussed by itself first.
Maybe so. Be my guest, everyone! ;-)
>> 2. After the server times out and says goodbye, nnimap often fails
>> to re-establish the connection until after *two* tries. The
>> result, apparently, is that even pressing `q' sometimes drops
>> marks because flag synchronization fails and there's no retry.
>
> This sounds like a nnimap bug, and I see it too. I think it only
> applies to non-native network connections (e.g., via tls, ssh etc).
> Fixing this problem might make you not perceive the first problem as a
> problem, so it is important. It hasn't annoyed me enough to debug
> yet, if anyone else like to debug it, that would be good.
It has annoyed me enough, for a very long time, but I got lost in the
tangle of Gnus and ran out of time.
It didn't seem to happen when I used Gnus under XEmacs, FWIW.
--
Dave Abrahams
Boost Consulting
www.boost-consulting.com
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: *reproducible* lost marks with nnimap
2004-01-13 23:23 ` Simon Josefsson
2004-01-13 23:27 ` David Abrahams
2004-01-13 23:27 ` David Abrahams
@ 2004-01-15 9:38 ` Kai Grossjohann
2004-01-15 10:27 ` Simon Josefsson
2 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread
From: Kai Grossjohann @ 2004-01-15 9:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes:
> You can still press 'q' in the summary buffer to save your flag
> changes (including which articles you read). Pressing M-g shouldn't
> change this. This isn't nnimap specific, so changing this probably
> should be discussed by itself first.
I thought that M-g did an implicit q, so to speak? So it would be
good, imvho, to have M-g from the summary buffer also save the marks
to the server.
Kai
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: *reproducible* lost marks with nnimap
2004-01-15 9:38 ` Kai Grossjohann
@ 2004-01-15 10:27 ` Simon Josefsson
2004-01-15 11:36 ` Kai Grossjohann
0 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread
From: Simon Josefsson @ 2004-01-15 10:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: ding
Kai Grossjohann <kai@emptydomain.de> writes:
> Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes:
>
>> You can still press 'q' in the summary buffer to save your flag
>> changes (including which articles you read). Pressing M-g shouldn't
>> change this. This isn't nnimap specific, so changing this probably
>> should be discussed by itself first.
>
> I thought that M-g did an implicit q, so to speak? So it would be
> good, imvho, to have M-g from the summary buffer also save the marks
> to the server.
Ah. I was talking about M-g in the group buffer, but I now see David
said summary buffer. Hm. Yes, then it sounds like a bug. But I
can't reproduce it. M-g in a summary buffer set the flags correctly
here. (M-g in a group buffer does not set flags, as expected.)
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: *reproducible* lost marks with nnimap
2004-01-15 10:27 ` Simon Josefsson
@ 2004-01-15 11:36 ` Kai Grossjohann
2004-01-15 13:43 ` Simon Josefsson
0 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread
From: Kai Grossjohann @ 2004-01-15 11:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes:
> Ah. I was talking about M-g in the group buffer, but I now see David
> said summary buffer. Hm. Yes, then it sounds like a bug. But I
> can't reproduce it. M-g in a summary buffer set the flags correctly
> here.
Even after the server times out the connection?
Kai
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: *reproducible* lost marks with nnimap
2004-01-15 11:36 ` Kai Grossjohann
@ 2004-01-15 13:43 ` Simon Josefsson
2004-01-15 15:48 ` Chris Shenton
2004-01-15 21:06 ` David Abrahams
0 siblings, 2 replies; 16+ messages in thread
From: Simon Josefsson @ 2004-01-15 13:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: ding
Kai Grossjohann <kai@emptydomain.de> writes:
> Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes:
>
>> Ah. I was talking about M-g in the group buffer, but I now see David
>> said summary buffer. Hm. Yes, then it sounds like a bug. But I
>> can't reproduce it. M-g in a summary buffer set the flags correctly
>> here.
>
> Even after the server times out the connection?
Doesn't M-g abort with an error in that case? The summary buffer
should still be alive though, so if you fix the connection, pressing q
or M-g in the summary buffer should save the flags.
I suspect that if the bug that nnimap doesn't reopen connections
automatically in some situations (starttls) was fixed, this would take
care of this other problem too.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: *reproducible* lost marks with nnimap
2004-01-15 13:43 ` Simon Josefsson
@ 2004-01-15 15:48 ` Chris Shenton
2004-01-15 18:11 ` Simon Josefsson
2004-01-15 21:06 ` David Abrahams
1 sibling, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread
From: Chris Shenton @ 2004-01-15 15:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: ding
Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes:
> I suspect that if the bug that nnimap doesn't reopen connections
> automatically in some situations (starttls) was fixed, this would take
> care of this other problem too.
Aye, there's the rub! I sent in a little more info on my problems
with this a few days ago, Subject "nnimap:$server unavailable... Go offline?"
I also tried using an always SSLified SMTPS server but found that it
had bugs moving articles from non-nnimap to nnimap groups. Someone
else has experienced similar problems regarding openssl problems:
http://www.lysator.liu.se/~forsberg/docs/Gnus_and_Courier.xml
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: *reproducible* lost marks with nnimap
2004-01-15 15:48 ` Chris Shenton
@ 2004-01-15 18:11 ` Simon Josefsson
2004-01-16 17:42 ` Chris Shenton
0 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread
From: Simon Josefsson @ 2004-01-15 18:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: Kai Grossjohann, ding
> I also tried using an always SSLified SMTPS server but found that it
> had bugs moving articles from non-nnimap to nnimap groups. Someone
> else has experienced similar problems regarding openssl problems:
>
> http://www.lysator.liu.se/~forsberg/docs/Gnus_and_Courier.xml
Adding -quiet to OpenSSL is the default these days, I think. I couldn't
find any other problem discussed, but I didn't read all of it.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: *reproducible* lost marks with nnimap
2004-01-15 18:11 ` Simon Josefsson
@ 2004-01-16 17:42 ` Chris Shenton
2004-01-17 2:33 ` Simon Josefsson
0 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread
From: Chris Shenton @ 2004-01-16 17:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: Kai Grossjohann, ding
"Simon Josefsson" <jas@extundo.com> writes:
> Adding -quiet to OpenSSL is the default these days, I think. I couldn't
> find any other problem discussed, but I didn't read all of it.
It's in there, by default, so there still seems to be a problem:
imap-ssl-program's value is
("openssl s_client -quiet -ssl3 -connect %s:%p" "openssl s_client -quiet -ssl2 -connect %s:%p" "s_client -quiet -ssl3 -connect %s:%p" "s_client -quiet -ssl2 -connect %s:%p")
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: *reproducible* lost marks with nnimap
2004-01-16 17:42 ` Chris Shenton
@ 2004-01-17 2:33 ` Simon Josefsson
0 siblings, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread
From: Simon Josefsson @ 2004-01-17 2:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: Kai Grossjohann, ding
Chris Shenton <chris@shenton.org> writes:
> "Simon Josefsson" <jas@extundo.com> writes:
>
>> Adding -quiet to OpenSSL is the default these days, I think. I couldn't
>> find any other problem discussed, but I didn't read all of it.
>
> It's in there, by default, so there still seems to be a problem:
>
> imap-ssl-program's value is
> ("openssl s_client -quiet -ssl3 -connect %s:%p" "openssl s_client -quiet -ssl2 -connect %s:%p" "s_client -quiet -ssl3 -connect %s:%p" "s_client -quiet -ssl2 -connect %s:%p")
What is the problem? If I read the web page correctly, whatever
problem mentioned there went away when -quiet was added.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: *reproducible* lost marks with nnimap
2004-01-15 13:43 ` Simon Josefsson
2004-01-15 15:48 ` Chris Shenton
@ 2004-01-15 21:06 ` David Abrahams
2004-01-16 5:36 ` Kevin Greiner
1 sibling, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread
From: David Abrahams @ 2004-01-15 21:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes:
> Kai Grossjohann <kai@emptydomain.de> writes:
>
>> Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes:
>>
>>> Ah. I was talking about M-g in the group buffer, but I now see David
>>> said summary buffer. Hm. Yes, then it sounds like a bug. But I
>>> can't reproduce it. M-g in a summary buffer set the flags correctly
>>> here.
>>
>> Even after the server times out the connection?
>
> Doesn't M-g abort with an error in that case?
Why not just have it try twice when it fails?
> The summary buffer should still be alive though, so if you fix the
> connection, pressing q or M-g in the summary buffer should save the
> flags.
Doesn't seem to work reliably.
> I suspect that if the bug that nnimap doesn't reopen connections
> automatically in some situations (starttls) was fixed, this would take
> care of this other problem too.
Sounds like a good idea. Who's qualified to fix that bug? ;-)
--
Dave Abrahams
Boost Consulting
www.boost-consulting.com
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: *reproducible* lost marks with nnimap
2004-01-15 21:06 ` David Abrahams
@ 2004-01-16 5:36 ` Kevin Greiner
0 siblings, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread
From: Kevin Greiner @ 2004-01-16 5:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
David Abrahams <dave@boost-consulting.com> writes:
> Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes:
>
>> Kai Grossjohann <kai@emptydomain.de> writes:
>>
>>> Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> Ah. I was talking about M-g in the group buffer, but I now see David
>>>> said summary buffer. Hm. Yes, then it sounds like a bug. But I
>>>> can't reproduce it. M-g in a summary buffer set the flags correctly
>>>> here.
>>>
>>> Even after the server times out the connection?
>>
>> Doesn't M-g abort with an error in that case?
>
> Why not just have it try twice when it fails?
>
>> The summary buffer should still be alive though, so if you fix the
>> connection, pressing q or M-g in the summary buffer should save the
>> flags.
>
> Doesn't seem to work reliably.
>
>> I suspect that if the bug that nnimap doesn't reopen connections
>> automatically in some situations (starttls) was fixed, this would take
>> care of this other problem too.
>
> Sounds like a good idea. Who's qualified to fix that bug? ;-)
Whoever works on this might want to first look at nntp-with-open-group. It
was written to solve similar problems with nntp servers.
Kevin
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread