mail vs news

mail vs news

[Xavier Maillard]

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Hello,

I know emails and news are two different beasts outside Gnus Towers but I am
looking for informations explaining how these two /beasts/ are viewed inside
Gnus -i.e what are the mail-centric-features vs nntp-features.

For example, does (adaptative) scoring work for both world ? Does expiration
work asame ? etc.

Thank you

Returning to C-h i Gnus RET

- -- Xavier.
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Re: mail vs news

[Greg Troxel]

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Xavier Maillard <lists.emacs.gnus@xavier.maillard.im> writes:

> I know emails and news are two different beasts outside Gnus Towers but I am
> looking for informations explaining how these two /beasts/ are viewed inside
> Gnus -i.e what are the mail-centric-features vs nntp-features.
>
> For example, does (adaptative) scoring work for both world ? Does expiration
> work asame ? etc.

Basically email is a special case of news, and most things work
similarly.  I don't use adaptive scoring, but I use the usual scoring
stuff all the time in nnimap groups.  I use topic mode in the groups
buffer.  I also use expiration, but auto-expire and total-expire, in
nnimap groups.  In this case the messages (articles, gnus calls them)
are actually removed from IMAP server.  The only funny part is that
expiration happens when exiting a group, so it's somewhat async and in
arrears, but in terms of keeping messages around for a while and then
pruning, it works for me.

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Re: mail vs news

[Xavier Maillard]

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Greg Troxel <gdt@lexort.com> writes:

> Xavier Maillard <lists.emacs.gnus@xavier.maillard.im> writes:
>
>> I know emails and news are two different beasts outside Gnus Towers but I am
>> looking for informations explaining how these two /beasts/ are viewed inside
>> Gnus -i.e what are the mail-centric-features vs nntp-features.
>>
>> For example, does (adaptative) scoring work for both world ? Does expiration
>> work asame ? etc.
>
> Basically email is a special case of news, and most things work
> similarly.  I don't use adaptive scoring, but I use the usual scoring
> stuff all the time in nnimap groups.  I use topic mode in the groups
> buffer.  I also use expiration, but auto-expire and total-expire, in
> nnimap groups.  In this case the messages (articles, gnus calls them)
> are actually removed from IMAP server.  The only funny part is that
> expiration happens when exiting a group, so it's somewhat async and in
> arrears, but in terms of keeping messages around for a while and then
> pruning, it works for me.

Thanks for your feedback. I am considering to go « full NNTP » for all my
mailing-lists needs (as long as it is possible). For example, I know gnu.*
hierarchy offers many groups I regularly read without having to write a line
of sieve script or without subscription.

Will see. Are you aware of any trouble switching from normal mailing-list
subscription to NNTP for ding for example ? (lag, gap, post missing, etc.)

- -- Xavier.
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Re: mail vs news

[Glyn Millington]

Xavier Maillard <lists.emacs.gnus@xavier.maillard.im> writes:

> Thanks for your feedback. I am considering to go « full NNTP » for all my
> mailing-lists needs (as long as it is possible). For example, I know gnu.*
> hierarchy offers many groups I regularly read without having to write a line
> of sieve script or without subscription.


You know about gmane?

http://gmane.org/

Almost certainly you do! but worth flagging it up in this thread.



atb

Glyn

Re: mail vs news

[Rainer M Krug]

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Glyn Millington <glyn.millington@gmail.com> writes:

> Xavier Maillard <lists.emacs.gnus@xavier.maillard.im> writes:
>
>> Thanks for your feedback. I am considering to go « full NNTP » for all my
>> mailing-lists needs (as long as it is possible). For example, I know gnu.*
>> hierarchy offers many groups I regularly read without having to write a line
>> of sieve script or without subscription.
>
>
> You know about gmane?
>
> http://gmane.org/
>
> Almost certainly you do! but worth flagging it up in this thread.

I had a similar setup, but moved back to mailing lists because of

1) many groups (particularly but not exclusively google groups) I can
not post to via gmane but I have to use mail. And in many cases, the
posts to gmane simply disappear in these cases - any suggestions on how
I can solve this (posting to via mail instead of gmane), and I am likely
to move back to gmane for all mailing lists

2) archiving of the posts as a ressource to search is much faster when
using offline storage of the posts and notmuch for indexing. I can
search gmane from gnus as well, but I kind of prefer notmuch.

Now I am back to all lists I might write to are mailing lists again.

As I said - the main 

>
>
>
> atb
>
> Glyn
>
>
>

-- 
Rainer M. Krug
email: Rainer<at>krugs<dot>de
PGP: 0x0F52F982

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Re: mail vs news

[Xavier Maillard]

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Rainer M Krug <Rainer@krugs.de> writes:

> Glyn Millington <glyn.millington@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Xavier Maillard <lists.emacs.gnus@xavier.maillard.im> writes:
>>
>>> Thanks for your feedback. I am considering to go « full NNTP » for all my
>>> mailing-lists needs (as long as it is possible). For example, I know gnu.*
>>> hierarchy offers many groups I regularly read without having to write a line
>>> of sieve script or without subscription.
>>
>>
>> You know about gmane?
>>
>> http://gmane.org/>
>> Almost certainly you do! but worth flagging it up in this thread.
>
> I had a similar setup, but moved back to mailing lists because of
>
> 1) many groups (particularly but not exclusively google groups) I can
> not post to via gmane but I have to use mail. And in many cases, the
> posts to gmane simply disappear in these cases - any suggestions on how
> I can solve this (posting to via mail instead of gmane), and I am likely
> to move back to gmane for all mailing lists

If I understand correctly, you want to automatically switch to a mail-message
when posting on certain gmane groups instead of news-message, right ?
Dunno if it could work but did you try specifying `gnus-parameters' for these
groups ?

> 2) archiving of the posts as a ressource to search is much faster when
> using offline storage of the posts and notmuch for indexing. I can
> search gmane from gnus as well, but I kind of prefer notmuch.

I dropped notmuch entirely; too much « work » to maintain its index and I
always forget the query syntax altogether ;)

- -- Xavier.
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Re: mail vs news

[Rainer M Krug]

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Xavier Maillard <lists.emacs.gnus@xavier.maillard.im> writes:

> Rainer M Krug <Rainer@krugs.de> writes:
>
>> Glyn Millington <glyn.millington@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> Xavier Maillard <lists.emacs.gnus@xavier.maillard.im> writes:
>>>
>>>> Thanks for your feedback. I am considering to go « full NNTP » for all my
>>>> mailing-lists needs (as long as it is possible). For example, I know gnu.*
>>>> hierarchy offers many groups I regularly read without having to write a line
>>>> of sieve script or without subscription.
>>>
>>>
>>> You know about gmane?
>>>
>>> http://gmane.org/>
>>> Almost certainly you do! but worth flagging it up in this thread.
>>
>> I had a similar setup, but moved back to mailing lists because of
>>
>> 1) many groups (particularly but not exclusively google groups) I can
>> not post to via gmane but I have to use mail. And in many cases, the
>> posts to gmane simply disappear in these cases - any suggestions on how
>> I can solve this (posting to via mail instead of gmane), and I am likely
>> to move back to gmane for all mailing lists
>
> If I understand correctly, you want to automatically switch to a mail-message
> when posting on certain gmane groups instead of news-message, right ?
> Dunno if it could work but did you try specifying `gnus-parameters' for these
> groups ?

Yes - exactly (as pointed out in my question here). I will look into
these later today.

>
>> 2) archiving of the posts as a ressource to search is much faster when
>> using offline storage of the posts and notmuch for indexing. I can
>> search gmane from gnus as well, but I kind of prefer notmuch.
>
> I dropped notmuch entirely; too much « work » to maintain its index and I
> always forget the query syntax altogether ;)

Maintenance: I use offlineimap to sync my gmail account to a local
dovecot imap server, and after each sync, "notmuch" -new is called - so
no maintenance on my side.

query syntax: This is tricky, but I usually use simple searches which
are no problem via the emacs interface.

And I am sure the gmane search syntax is also not to simple?

Oh - one other advantage of mailing list: I can read them on all my
devices. OK - I have to filter them by using rules on the server (gmail
in my case), but than I can read them from all devices (gnus, web gmail,
iPhone, whatever I use t access my gmail account).


Cheers,

Rainer

>
> -- Xavier.

-- 
Rainer M. Krug
email: Rainer<at>krugs<dot>de
PGP: 0x0F52F982

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Re: mail vs news

[Adam Sjøgren]

Rainer writes:

> And I am sure the gmane search syntax is also not to simple?

How are the syntaxes complex? (I don't know the syntax, even though I
use both, so I am asking out of curiosity.)

(Both notmuch and the Gmane search is built on Xapian, by the way.)


  Best regards,

    Adam

-- 
 "I'm so indie my shirt don't fit"                            Adam Sjøgren
                                                         asjo@koldfront.dk

Re: mail vs news

[Igor Sosa Mayor]

Rainer M Krug <Rainer@krugs.de> writes:

> Maintenance: I use offlineimap to sync my gmail account to a local
> dovecot imap server, and after each sync, "notmuch" -new is called - so
> no maintenance on my side.

sorry for the noise... but is it somehow possible to see your dovecot
config? I never managed to run a local dovecot imap server in
archlinux...

many thanks in advance!


-- 
:: Igor Sosa Mayor     :: joseleopoldo1792@gmail.com ::
:: GnuPG: 0x1C1E2890   :: http://www.gnupg.org/      ::
:: jabberid: rogorido  ::                            ::

Re: mail vs news

[Eric Abrahamsen]

Igor Sosa Mayor <joseleopoldo1792@gmail.com> writes:

> Rainer M Krug <Rainer@krugs.de> writes:
>
>> Maintenance: I use offlineimap to sync my gmail account to a local
>> dovecot imap server, and after each sync, "notmuch" -new is called - so
>> no maintenance on my side.
>
> sorry for the noise... but is it somehow possible to see your dovecot
> config? I never managed to run a local dovecot imap server in
> archlinux...
>
> many thanks in advance!

Here's my output of "doveconf -n". This is all the configuration I've
got, apart from /etc/dovecot/passwd.


# 2.2.21 (5345f22): /etc/dovecot/dovecot.conf
# OS: Linux 4.2.5-1-ARCH i686  
auth_verbose = yes
disable_plaintext_auth = no
info_log_path = /var/log/dovecot-info.log
log_path = /var/log/dovecot.log
mail_plugins = "fts fts_lucene"
passdb {
  args = username_format=%u /etc/dovecot/passwd
  driver = passwd-file
}
plugin {
  fts = lucene
  fts_autoindex = yes
  fts_lucene = whitespace_chars=@.
}
protocols = imap
ssl = no
userdb {
  args = uid=eric gid=users home=/home/eric/.mail/%d/%n username_format=%u
  default_fields = mail=maildir:/home/eric/.mail/%d/%n/mail
  driver = static
}

Re: mail vs news

[Igor Sosa Mayor]

Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:

> Igor Sosa Mayor <joseleopoldo1792@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Rainer M Krug <Rainer@krugs.de> writes:
>>
>>> Maintenance: I use offlineimap to sync my gmail account to a local
>>> dovecot imap server, and after each sync, "notmuch" -new is called - so
>>> no maintenance on my side.
>>
>> sorry for the noise... but is it somehow possible to see your dovecot
>> config? I never managed to run a local dovecot imap server in
>> archlinux...
>>
>> many thanks in advance!
>
> Here's my output of "doveconf -n". This is all the configuration I've
> got, apart from /etc/dovecot/passwd.
>

thanks! this is local imap server, isn't it?

Re: mail vs news

[Rainer M Krug]

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Igor Sosa Mayor <joseleopoldo1792@gmail.com> writes:

> Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:
>
>> Igor Sosa Mayor <joseleopoldo1792@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> Rainer M Krug <Rainer@krugs.de> writes:
>>>
>>>> Maintenance: I use offlineimap to sync my gmail account to a local
>>>> dovecot imap server, and after each sync, "notmuch" -new is called - so
>>>> no maintenance on my side.
>>>
>>> sorry for the noise... but is it somehow possible to see your dovecot
>>> config? I never managed to run a local dovecot imap server in
>>> archlinux...
>>>
>>> many thanks in advance!
>>
>> Here's my output of "doveconf -n". This is all the configuration I've
>> got, apart from /etc/dovecot/passwd.
>>
>
> thanks! this is local imap server, isn't it?

Mine yes. Here is my output from the command:

,----
| doveconf -n
| # 2.2.21 (5345f22): /usr/local/etc/dovecot/dovecot.conf
| # OS: Darwin 15.2.0 x86_64
| mail_location = maildir:~/Maildir
| namespace inbox {
|   inbox = yes
|   location =
|   mailbox Drafts {
|     special_use = \Drafts
|   }
|   mailbox Junk {
|     special_use = \Junk
|   }
|   mailbox Sent {
|     special_use = \Sent
|   }
|   mailbox "Sent Messages" {
|     special_use = \Sent
|   }
|   mailbox Trash {
|     special_use = \Trash
|   }
|   prefix =
| }
| passdb {
|   args = login
|   driver = pam
| }
| ssl_cert = </usr/local/etc/dovecot/dovecot.pem
| ssl_key = </usr/local/etc/dovecot/private/dovecot.pem
| userdb {
|   driver = passwd
| }
`----


>
>
>

-- 
Rainer M. Krug
email: Rainer<at>krugs<dot>de
PGP: 0x0F52F982

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Re: mail vs news

[Igor Sosa Mayor]

Rainer M Krug <Rainer@krugs.de> writes:

[...]

>> thanks! this is local imap server, isn't it?
>
> Mine yes. Here is my output from the command:

thanks!

Re: mail vs news

[Eric Abrahamsen]

Igor Sosa Mayor <joseleopoldo1792@gmail.com> writes:

> Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:
>
>> Igor Sosa Mayor <joseleopoldo1792@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> Rainer M Krug <Rainer@krugs.de> writes:
>>>
>>>> Maintenance: I use offlineimap to sync my gmail account to a local
>>>> dovecot imap server, and after each sync, "notmuch" -new is called - so
>>>> no maintenance on my side.
>>>
>>> sorry for the noise... but is it somehow possible to see your dovecot
>>> config? I never managed to run a local dovecot imap server in
>>> archlinux...
>>>
>>> many thanks in advance!
>>
>> Here's my output of "doveconf -n". This is all the configuration I've
>> got, apart from /etc/dovecot/passwd.
>>
>
> thanks! this is local imap server, isn't it?

Right, then Gnus connects via (for instance, for this email address):

(nnimap "EA"
	(nnimap-address "localhost")
	(nnimap-stream network)
	(nnimap-authenticator login)
	(nnimap-user "eric@ericabrahamsen.net"))

Re: mail vs news

[Rainer M Krug]

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Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:

> Igor Sosa Mayor <joseleopoldo1792@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:
>>
>>> Igor Sosa Mayor <joseleopoldo1792@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> Rainer M Krug <Rainer@krugs.de> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> Maintenance: I use offlineimap to sync my gmail account to a local
>>>>> dovecot imap server, and after each sync, "notmuch" -new is called - so
>>>>> no maintenance on my side.
>>>>
>>>> sorry for the noise... but is it somehow possible to see your dovecot
>>>> config? I never managed to run a local dovecot imap server in
>>>> archlinux...
>>>>
>>>> many thanks in advance!
>>>
>>> Here's my output of "doveconf -n". This is all the configuration I've
>>> got, apart from /etc/dovecot/passwd.
>>>
>>
>> thanks! this is local imap server, isn't it?
>
> Right, then Gnus connects via (for instance, for this email address):
>
> (nnimap "EA"
> 	(nnimap-address "localhost")
> 	(nnimap-stream network)
> 	(nnimap-authenticator login)
> 	(nnimap-user "eric@ericabrahamsen.net"))
>

Or like this:

(nnimap "Maildir"
        (nnimap-stream shell)
        (nnimap-shell-program "/usr/local/opt/dovecot/libexec/dovecot/imap -o mail_location=maildir:$HOME/Maildir")))

If you do it like this, it is not necessary to run the imap server
daemon - no worries about security. And if I am correc=ct, you don't
need to configure dovecot with the conf file, as you specify the
parameters in the commandline.

Cheers,

Rainer

>
>

-- 
Rainer M. Krug
email: Rainer<at>krugs<dot>de
PGP: 0x0F52F982

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Re: mail vs news

[Igor Sosa Mayor]

Rainer M Krug <Rainer@krugs.de> writes:

[...]
> Or like this:
>
> (nnimap "Maildir"
>         (nnimap-stream shell)
>         (nnimap-shell-program "/usr/local/opt/dovecot/libexec/dovecot/imap -o mail_location=maildir:$HOME/Maildir")))
>
> If you do it like this, it is not necessary to run the imap server
> daemon - no worries about security. And if I am correc=ct, you don't
> need to configure dovecot with the conf file, as you specify the
> parameters in the commandline.

thanks. I'll give it a try in the holidays days.

Re: mail vs news

[Eric Abrahamsen]

Rainer M Krug <Rainer@krugs.de> writes:

> Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:
>
>> Igor Sosa Mayor <joseleopoldo1792@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:
>>>
>>>> Igor Sosa Mayor <joseleopoldo1792@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> Rainer M Krug <Rainer@krugs.de> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Maintenance: I use offlineimap to sync my gmail account to a local
>>>>>> dovecot imap server, and after each sync, "notmuch" -new is called - so
>>>>>> no maintenance on my side.
>>>>>
>>>>> sorry for the noise... but is it somehow possible to see your dovecot
>>>>> config? I never managed to run a local dovecot imap server in
>>>>> archlinux...
>>>>>
>>>>> many thanks in advance!
>>>>
>>>> Here's my output of "doveconf -n". This is all the configuration I've
>>>> got, apart from /etc/dovecot/passwd.
>>>>
>>>
>>> thanks! this is local imap server, isn't it?
>>
>> Right, then Gnus connects via (for instance, for this email address):
>>
>> (nnimap "EA"
>> 	(nnimap-address "localhost")
>> 	(nnimap-stream network)
>> 	(nnimap-authenticator login)
>> 	(nnimap-user "eric@ericabrahamsen.net"))
>>
>
> Or like this:
>
> (nnimap "Maildir"
>         (nnimap-stream shell)
>         (nnimap-shell-program "/usr/local/opt/dovecot/libexec/dovecot/imap -o mail_location=maildir:$HOME/Maildir")))
>
> If you do it like this, it is not necessary to run the imap server
> daemon - no worries about security. And if I am correc=ct, you don't
> need to configure dovecot with the conf file, as you specify the
> parameters in the commandline.

Right -- I was originally doing that (single dovecot invocations), and
wrote the blog post above because I thought that I needed an
always-running daemon in order for FTS indexing to work. Later on I
discovered it's not really necessary, but on the other hand the daemon
hasn't bothered me any, so...

Re: mail vs news

[Erik Colson]

Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:

> Right -- I was originally doing that (single dovecot invocations), and
> wrote the blog post above because I thought that I needed an
> always-running daemon in order for FTS indexing to work. Later on I
> discovered it's not really necessary, but on the other hand the daemon
> hasn't bothered me any, so...

dovecot has fts indexed with lucene or solr. how are you using nnmaildir
fts ? is it indexed search ?

best
-- 
erik colson

Re: mail vs news

[Eric Abrahamsen]

Erik Colson <eco@ecocode.net> writes:

> Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:
>
>> Right -- I was originally doing that (single dovecot invocations), and
>> wrote the blog post above because I thought that I needed an
>> always-running daemon in order for FTS indexing to work. Later on I
>> discovered it's not really necessary, but on the other hand the daemon
>> hasn't bothered me any, so...
>
> dovecot has fts indexed with lucene or solr. how are you using nnmaildir
> fts ? is it indexed search ?

I don't use nnmaildir at all -- the whole point of using nnimap is that
dovecot then does the searching for you? The backend is specified as
nnimap, and nnir does the rest.

Re: mail vs news

[Erik Colson]

Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:

> I don't use nnmaildir at all -- the whole point of using nnimap is that
> dovecot then does the searching for you? The backend is specified as
> nnimap, and nnir does the rest.

then I misunderstood.. as you wrote you didn't need the dovecot daemon..

best
-- 
erik colson

Re: mail vs news

[Igor Sosa Mayor]

Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:

[...]
>> thanks! this is local imap server, isn't it?
>
> Right, then Gnus connects via (for instance, for this email address):

thanks!


-- 
:: Igor Sosa Mayor     :: joseleopoldo1792@gmail.com ::
:: GnuPG: 0x1C1E2890   :: http://www.gnupg.org/      ::
:: jabberid: rogorido  ::                            ::

Re: mail vs news

[Rainer M Krug]

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Igor Sosa Mayor <joseleopoldo1792@gmail.com> writes:

> Rainer M Krug <Rainer@krugs.de> writes:
>
>> Maintenance: I use offlineimap to sync my gmail account to a local
>> dovecot imap server, and after each sync, "notmuch" -new is called - so
>> no maintenance on my side.
>
> sorry for the noise... but is it somehow possible to see your dovecot
> config? I never managed to run a local dovecot imap server in
> archlinux...

sure - had it working on Linux and now on OS X. AS far as I remember, I
just installed it (on OXS X vie homebrew) and started it. The only
change:

set my

mail_location = maildir:~/Maildir

in the conf.d/10-mail.conf file


That was it.

The actual configuration is the default.

>
> many thanks in advance!

-- 
Rainer M. Krug
email: Rainer<at>krugs<dot>de
PGP: 0x0F52F982

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Re: mail vs news

[Xavier Maillard]

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Glyn Millington <glyn.millington@gmail.com> writes:

> Xavier Maillard <lists.emacs.gnus@xavier.maillard.im> writes:
>
>> Thanks for your feedback. I am considering to go « full NNTP » for all my
>> mailing-lists needs (as long as it is possible). For example, I know gnu.*
>> hierarchy offers many groups I regularly read without having to write a line
>> of sieve script or without subscription.
>
> You know about gmane?
>
> http://gmane.org/
>
> Almost certainly you do! but worth flagging it up in this thread.

Indeed.

I also like reading my website through http://gwene.org gateway

- -- Xavier.

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Re: mail vs news

[Filipp Gunbin]

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On 16/12/2015 06:01 +0100, Xavier Maillard wrote:

> I am considering to go « full NNTP » for all my mailing-lists needs
> (as long as it is possible).

How is it better?

I switched in the opposite direction some time ago.  Mainly due to the
reason that usually free software projects use mailing lists as official
channel, not a newsgroup - so why use mail-to-news translation?

Filipp

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Re: mail vs news

[Tim Landscheidt]

Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@fastmail.fm> wrote:

>> I am considering to go « full NNTP » for all my mailing-lists needs
>> (as long as it is possible).

> How is it better?

> I switched in the opposite direction some time ago.  Mainly due to the
> reason that usually free software projects use mailing lists as official
> channel, not a newsgroup - so why use mail-to-news translation?

Complete archives, your MTA/MUA must only handle those mes-
sages that you actually read, etc.

Tim

Re: mail vs news

[Xavier Maillard]

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Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@fastmail.fm> writes:

> On 16/12/2015 06:01 +0100, Xavier Maillard wrote:
>
>> I am considering to go « full NNTP » for all my mailing-lists needs
>> (as long as it is possible).
>
> How is it better?

This is what I am asking for ;)

Actually, I can see at least these points:

- - No need to sort/split my input feed; the articles are right in the right
(nntp) group.

- - Disk footprint on both my computers and my e-mail provider

- - with gmane, it is likely that any mailing list you read frequently, has its
gmane equivalent.

- -- Xavier.
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