Nnml groups, the to-group parameter, and following up to a crosspost

Nnml groups, the to-group parameter, and following up to a crosspost

[Steven L Baur]

This `bug' has irritated me for a long time.  I read several
newsgroups only through an nnml mirror of the news spool, with the
to-group parameter set to the name of the Usenet group.  This works
fine except when responding to an article that has been crossposted.
I'd like to see the to-group parameter made optional on a followup to
a message with a Newsgroups: header.

===================================================================
RCS file: RCS/ChangeLog,v
retrieving revision 1.52
diff -u -r1.52 ChangeLog
--- ChangeLog	1996/11/06 17:07:44	1.52
+++ ChangeLog	1996/11/06 22:54:14
@@ -1,3 +1,8 @@
+Wed Nov  6 14:53:39 1996  Steven L Baur  <steve@miranova.com>
+
+	* gnus-msg.el (gnus-post-news): Allow existing Newsgroups: header to
+	override the setting of the group parameter to-group.
+
 Tue Nov  5 22:34:01 1996  Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen  <larsi@ifi.uio.no>
 
 	* message.el (message-goto-signature): Place point better.

===================================================================
RCS file: RCS/gnus-msg.el,v
retrieving revision 1.20
diff -u -r1.20 gnus-msg.el
--- gnus-msg.el	1996/10/30 19:28:23	1.20
+++ gnus-msg.el	1996/11/06 22:51:48
@@ -366,7 +366,8 @@
 	    (if post
 		(message-news (or to-group group))
 	      (set-buffer gnus-article-copy)
-	      (message-followup to-group))
+	      (message-followup (or (message-fetch-field "newsgroups")
+				    to-group)))
 	  ;; The is mail.
 	  (if post
 	      (progn

-- 
steve@miranova.com baur
Unsolicited commercial e-mail will be billed at $250/message.
What are the last two letters of "doesn't" and "can't"?
Coincidence?  I think not.

Re: Nnml groups, the to-group parameter, and following up to a crosspost

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Steven L Baur <steve@miranova.com> writes:

> This `bug' has irritated me for a long time.  I read several
> newsgroups only through an nnml mirror of the news spool, with the
> to-group parameter set to the name of the Usenet group.  This works
> fine except when responding to an article that has been crossposted.
> I'd like to see the to-group parameter made optional on a followup to
> a message with a Newsgroups: header.

Wouldn't a more general solution be to add a function to do an `M-x
message-followup' to articles posted in mail groups?  This would also
be useful for responding (via news) to mails you have received as
courtesy copies.  I think I'll add that for 0.56.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@ifi.uio.no * Lars Ingebrigtsen

Re: Nnml groups, the to-group parameter, and following up to a crosspost

[Steven L Baur]

>>>>> "Lars" == Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@ifi.uio.no> writes:

>>>>> "sb" == Steven L Baur <steve@miranova.com> writes:

sb> I'd like to see the to-group parameter made optional on a followup to
sb> a message with a Newsgroups: header.

Lars> Wouldn't a more general solution be to add a function to do an
Lars> `M-x message-followup' to articles posted in mail groups?  This
Lars> would also be useful for responding (via news) to mails you have
Lars> received as courtesy copies.  I think I'll add that for 0.56.

Just so long as it doesn't make to-group work like to-address.
to-group working like to-list would be fine.
-- 
steve@miranova.com baur
Unsolicited commercial e-mail will be billed at $250/message.
What are the last two letters of "doesn't" and "can't"?
Coincidence?  I think not.

Re: Nnml groups, the to-group parameter, and following up to a crosspost

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Steven L Baur <steve@miranova.com> writes:

> Just so long as it doesn't make to-group work like to-address.
> to-group working like to-list would be fine.

The new `S N' and `S n' commands will bypass the `to-group' (etc)
mechanism and instead just treat the article as a news article and
follow up according to the normal news rules.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@ifi.uio.no * Lars Ingebrigtsen

Re: Nnml groups, the to-group parameter, and following up to a crosspost

[Steven L Baur]

>>>>> "Lars" == Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@ifi.uio.no> writes:

>>>>> "sb" == Steven L Baur <steve@miranova.com> writes:

sb> Just so long as it doesn't make to-group work like to-address.
sb> to-group working like to-list would be fine.

Lars> The new `S N' and `S n' commands will bypass the `to-group'
Lars> (etc) mechanism and instead just treat the article as a news
Lars> article and follow up according to the normal news rules.

This works, but it's kind of odd having a different key stroke when
I'm used to using `F' everywhere.  Are both `S N' and `S n' on a menu
somewhere?  I found one, but not the other ...
-- 
steve@miranova.com baur
Unsolicited commercial e-mail will be billed at $250/message.
What are the last two letters of "doesn't" and "can't"?
Coincidence?  I think not.

Re: Nnml groups, the to-group parameter, and following up to a crosspost

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Steven L Baur <steve@miranova.com> writes:

> Lars> The new `S N' and `S n' commands will bypass the `to-group'
> Lars> (etc) mechanism and instead just treat the article as a news
> Lars> article and follow up according to the normal news rules.
> 
> This works, but it's kind of odd having a different key stroke when
> I'm used to using `F' everywhere. 

Yes, but the `S N' command is kinda unusual -- you're basically
sending a response to a "mail" message via news, so it's not something
that people should trigger by mistake.  (Look at where that got pine,
for instance.)

> Are both `S N' and `S n' on a menu somewhere?  I found one, but not
> the other ...

The latter is right above the former, isn't it?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@ifi.uio.no * Lars Ingebrigtsen

Re: Nnml groups, the to-group parameter, and following up to a crosspost

[Steven L Baur]

>>>>> "Lars" == Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@ifi.uio.no> writes:
>>>>> "sb" == Steven L Baur <steve@miranova.com> writes:

Lars> The new `S N' and `S n' commands will bypass the `to-group'
Lars> (etc) mechanism and instead just treat the article as a news
Lars> article and follow up according to the normal news rules.

sb> This works, but it's kind of odd having a different key stroke when
sb> I'm used to using `F' everywhere. 

Odd has turned to major annoyance again as I missed a couple of
crossposts :-(.

Lars> Yes, but the `S N' command is kinda unusual -- you're basically
Lars> sending a response to a "mail" message via news, so it's not
Lars> something that people should trigger by mistake.  (Look at where
Lars> that got pine, for instance.)

Yes, but it is very different from the patch I submitted, which
targeted a special case.  Having a to-group parameter set on a mail
group is not something that can happen by accident -- you have to be
doing something special with it, and you have to take positive action
to modify the group parameters.  I don't believe this is anywhere near
the case in Pine you are referring to.

If you have a mail group that you intend to be posting to (the only
purpose of having a to-group parameter) then you need to have the
ability to crosspost to the same groups the original message was
posted to.  The alternative is flipping to the SPC*Original
Article...* buffer and cutting and pasting the Newsgroups: line (at
least that's what I've been doing, yuk!), memorizing two different
keystroke sequences to do essentially the same thing, and remembering
to use the correct one, or ignoring crossposts entirely.

`S n' and `S N' are unaesthetic in the sense that you have done a
wonderful job merging news and mail except for here.  I want the
ability to preconfigure the newsish group the same way I can
preconfigure mailing list groups.

Will you reconsider my patch, or explain exactly why configuring a
mail group to post to Usenet by default should totally disregard an
existing Newsgroups: line in a Followup.

(I hope this was a clearer explanation of what I was aiming at).

sb> Are both `S N' and `S n' on a menu somewhere?  I found one, but not
sb> the other ...

Lars> The latter is right above the former, isn't it?

Uuencode and post	S u
Followup via news	S n
Followup via news and yank	[unbound]
-- 
steve@miranova.com baur
Unsolicited commercial e-mail will be billed at $250/message.
What are the last two letters of "doesn't" and "can't"?
Coincidence?  I think not.

Re: Nnml groups, the to-group parameter, and following up to a crosspost

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Steven L Baur <steve@miranova.com> writes:

> Yes, but it is very different from the patch I submitted, which
> targeted a special case.  Having a to-group parameter set on a mail
> group is not something that can happen by accident -- you have to be
> doing something special with it, and you have to take positive action
> to modify the group parameters.  I don't believe this is anywhere near
> the case in Pine you are referring to.

Yes.  But I still think that `to-group' should be allowed to specify a
single group to send an article to, no matter whether there is a
Newsgroups header in the article or not.  

How about introducing a new group parameter -- `newsgroup'?  If it is
t, then Gnus will use normal news methods for responding to the
message? 

> Lars> The latter is right above the former, isn't it?
> 
> Uuencode and post	S u
> Followup via news	S n
> Followup via news and yank	[unbound]

Yup.  Fix in Red Gnus v0.58.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@ifi.uio.no * Lars Ingebrigtsen

Re: Nnml groups, the to-group parameter, and following up to a crosspost

[Steven L Baur]

>>>>> "Lars" == Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@ifi.uio.no> writes:

Lars> Yes.  But I still think that `to-group' should be allowed to
Lars> specify a single group to send an article to, no matter whether
Lars> there is a Newsgroups header in the article or not.

Lars> How about introducing a new group parameter -- `newsgroup'?  If
Lars> it is t, then Gnus will use normal news methods for responding
Lars> to the message?

Either that, or for symmetry with to-list and to-address you could add
a to-usenet parameter that takes a home group parameter, but otherwise
follows Newsgroups: if present.

How would (newsgroup . t) behave in the presence of to-list and
to-address parameters?  It would still (cross)post to Usenet if there
were a Newsgroups: header, otherwise Newsgroups: would be ignored on
Followup, right?

That sounds useful, maybe you could do both.  I notice on some mailing
lists there are crossposts between pseudo newsgroups and real
newsgroups (like mail.cypherpunks and sci.crypt) that would be nice to
have treated correctly.

-- 
steve@miranova.com baur
Unsolicited commercial e-mail will be billed at $250/message.
What are the last two letters of "doesn't" and "can't"?
Coincidence?  I think not.

Re: Nnml groups, the to-group parameter, and following up to a crosspost

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Steven L Baur <steve@miranova.com> writes:

> How would (newsgroup . t) behave in the presence of to-list and
> to-address parameters?  It would still (cross)post to Usenet if there
> were a Newsgroups: header, otherwise Newsgroups: would be ignored on
> Followup, right?

Hm.  At present, `newsgroup' just makes Gnus behave as if you're
reading a newsgroup when posting/following up.  The normal rules are
used. 

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@ifi.uio.no * Lars Ingebrigtsen