Re: using the agent default category

Re: using the agent default category

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

lconrad@world.std.com writes:

> When I went online, and sais "J j J s", it looked like it was doing
> things, and the group buffer said there were articles, but I was
> unable to enter the group.  The message said:
> 
> Couldn't request group gnu.emacs.gnus: Opened server news.std.com using directo\
> 
> And instead of finding the rest of the message, I went into the
> category buffer and edited the predicate of the default category to
> "true", and after that things would work.  

Hm.  Entering groups should only depend on whether there are headers
in the group or not, and the predicate only affects whether articles
are downloaded, so I don't understand this.

But Agent startup issues haven't been tested all that much.  I get the 
feeling that it basically doesn't work, but after restarting a few
times and fiddling a bit it starts working, and people forget to file
bug reports.

Could a few of youse try to start using the agent "for the first time" 
-- perhaps out of a new, pristine account -- according to how the
manual says it should be done, and see how things go?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Agent startup

[Robert Epprecht]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> But Agent startup issues haven't been tested all that much.  I get the 
> feeling that it basically doesn't work, but after restarting a few
> times and fiddling a bit it starts working, and people forget to file
> bug reports.

Well this is very true. I did post here about these issues...
(Can't remember for shure if I filed a bug report, though.)

> Could a few of youse try to start using the agent "for the first time" 
> -- perhaps out of a new, pristine account -- according to how the
> manual says it should be done, and see how things go?

OK, lets see:
I use GNU Emacs 20.3.1 and Gnus v5.6.45 (no pgnus, hope that's ok) 

Let me say first, that I think the section of the manual,
that describes the Agent should be much more easy to find
from the top menu using a word like 'offline reader' or so,
so that even beginners could find it without problems.

thats what I did:
I made a new user on my Linux machine
I made a simple .gnus.el like this:

;; =========== .gnus.el
(setq gnus-select-method '(nntp "news.sunrise.ch"))
(setq gnus-verbose 10)		; let's hear what she will say
(setq debug-on-error t)		; just in case
(gnus-agentize)
============

1st try:
emacs -f gnus-unplugged
'Symbol's function definition is void: gnus-unplugged'
I put (require 'gnus-agent) in .emacs

2nd try:
emacs -f gnus-unplugged
'nntp (news.sunrise.ch) open error: 'No such file or directory: ~/News/agent/nntp/news.sunrise.ch/'

ok:
mkdir -p News/agent/nntp/news.sunrise.ch/
Now Gnus starts up (without reading the active file from the server)
I also tried '^ J a' but Gnus complaints that the server is already
covered by the agent (Probably because I made the directory)

I have a problem with the interpretation of the manual:
   * First, set up Gnus as you would do if you were running it on a
     machine that has full connection to the net.  Go ahead.  I'll
     still be waiting here.

   * Then, put the following magical incantation at the end of your
     `.gnus.el' file:

          (gnus-agentize)

   That's it.  Gnus is now an "offline" newsreader.

Does this say, I just *set up* the Agent or does it imply,
that I should *run* Gnus first (w/o the Agent) to read the actve file?


3rd try:
I decide to try it the other way round and start it all over again:
I make a new account but do *not* put (gnus-agentize) in .gnus.el
going online,   'emacs    M-x gnus'
'Reading active file from news.sunrise.ch via nntp...'
Everything works fine. I quit gnus, put '(gnus-agentize)' in .gnus.el.

M-x gnus-unplugged 
'Loading gnus-agent...done' ASCI Gnus shows up and then hangs 
(I give him a looooong time, nothing. 'top' shows no activity)
At this state there is a ~/News directory but no ~/News/agent
I quit with C-g, set debug-on-quit, M-x gnus-unplugged, same hang.
C-g gives: 'nntp (news.sunrise.ch) open error: ''.  Continue? (y or n)'
'n'
'Couldn't open server on news.sunrise.ch'
(I have already tried saying 'y' last time, but no luck either)

Hmm, I remember my first time... A beginner is quite lost here...
I try: M-x gnus-no-server because I want to have the server
covered by the agent
'^' but no luck: only the following servers shows up:
  {nnfolder:archive} (closed)
  {nndraft:} (opened)
Stupid me, didn't I say 'no-server'?

OK, let's do It the hard way: mkdir -p News/agent/nntp/
:-( I have never been able to set up the agent,
    without making his directories by hand. )-:

emacs -f gnus-unplugged
'Symbol's function definition is void: gnus-unplugged'
I put (require 'gnus-agent) back in .emacs
Now Gnus dances in ASCI and ..... hangs. :-(   C-g
mkdir News/agent/nntp/agent
emacs -f gnus-unplugged, hanging again, C-g
'nntp (news.sunrise.ch) open error: ''.  Continue? (y or n)'
this time I try 'y', and see... the default groups show up
'^'	{nntp:news.sunrise.ch} (denied)	 shows up
wanna make 'J a' but emacs beeps at me when I do the 'J'

Hmm, this posting gets kind of longish, so let's stop here.
I've done no tests with pgnus. Maybe I should?

I want to mention, that i like the Agent very much, even if
there are some things which are not quite finished yet.
I'm glad that you take time to improve it a little.
Thank you Lars.

Robert Epprecht

Re: Agent startup

[Kai.Grossjohann]

Robert Epprecht <epprecht@sunweb.ch> writes:

  > 3rd try:
  > I decide to try it the other way round and start it all over again:
  > I make a new account but do *not* put (gnus-agentize) in .gnus.el
  > going online,   'emacs    M-x gnus'
  > 'Reading active file from news.sunrise.ch via nntp...'
  > Everything works fine. I quit gnus, put '(gnus-agentize)' in .gnus.el.

What happens if you do M-x gnus RET after having put (gnus-agentize)
in .gnus?  I think that's what I did.  I then started to set up the
Agent while online.

kai
-- 
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Re: Agent startup (how it works)

[Robert Epprecht]

Good hint, Kai, like this it *does* work:

(still using Gnus v5.6.45  GNU Emacs 20.3.1  in a fresh Linux account)

;; =========== .emacs
(require 'gnus-agent)

;; =========== .gnus.el
(setq gnus-select-method '(nntp "news.sunrise.ch"))

I go online, start emacs, M-x gnus RET, Gnus reads the active file.
I quit Gnus, put (gnus-agentize) at the end of .gnus.el
M-x gnus (still online) and bingo!

Wow, it's so simple!   (-; if you know how ;-)
(It's the first time I managed to startup a new agent without
 having to make the directories by hand.)

Like Lars said have most of us forgotten how difficult it was
until the agent started working. So either the documentation
should be written more clear (cookbook) or the agents startup
behavior should be improved, or even better, both ;-)

And BTW speaking about the documentation:
The node '* Agent Basics::' is very helpful for beginners,
but does forget to mention thet you have to do 'g' before `J s'
I remember like I had difficulties with this one...

Robert Epprecht

Re: Agent startup (how it works)

[Dan Christensen]

Robert Epprecht <epprecht@sunweb.ch> writes:
> ;; =========== .emacs
> (require 'gnus-agent)

> put (gnus-agentize) at the end of .gnus.el

It would be nice if both of these steps were unnecessary.  Is there
any reason that Gnus isn't always agentized?  Besides the "Plugged" in
the mode line, would a typical non-agent user even notice a
difference?

Dan

Re: Agent startup (how it works)

[Laura Conrad]

Dan Christensen <jdc@jhu.edu> writes:

> Robert Epprecht <epprecht@sunweb.ch> writes:
> > ;; =========== .emacs
> > (require 'gnus-agent)
> 
> > put (gnus-agentize) at the end of .gnus.el
> 
> It would be nice if both of these steps were unnecessary.  Is there
> any reason that Gnus isn't always agentized?  Besides the "Plugged" in
> the mode line, would a typical non-agent user even notice a
> difference?

Your news postings and email would never get sent, if you didn't say
"J S". 

That's actually one of the things I don't like about the design of the
agent -- I don't think it should affect your mail at all unless you
agentize the mail server.

-- 
Laura (mailto:lconrad@world.std.com , http://www.world.std.com/~lconrad/ )
(617) 661-8097	 
233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139, USA

Re: Agent startup (how it works)

[Dan Christensen]

Laura Conrad <lconrad@concord.com> writes:
> Dan Christensen <jdc@jhu.edu> writes:
> > Robert Epprecht <epprecht@sunweb.ch> writes:
> > > ;; =========== .emacs
> > > (require 'gnus-agent)
> > 
> > > put (gnus-agentize) at the end of .gnus.el
> > 
> > It would be nice if both of these steps were unnecessary.  Is there
> > any reason that Gnus isn't always agentized?  Besides the "Plugged" in
> > the mode line, would a typical non-agent user even notice a
> > difference?
> 
> Your news postings and email would never get sent, if you didn't say
> "J S". 

Why not?  `M-x gnus' would start Gnus plugged.  And when plugged,
doesn't Gnus send mail and news immediately?

> That's actually one of the things I don't like about the design of the
> agent -- I don't think it should affect your mail at all unless you
> agentize the mail server.

When unplugged:

I think that Gnus should fetch incoming mail if the mail server isn't
agentized (and not fetch it if the mail server is agentized).  ("The"
mail server really means any mail server which has the get-new-mail
variable set.)

And similarly for incoming news.

For outgoing mail and news, I think the behaviour should be controlled
by a new variable.  For example, something like `gnus-agent-queue'
with possible values `t' (or `both'), `news', `mail' and `nil' (or `none').

Dan

Re: Agent startup (how it works)

[Kai.Grossjohann]

Laura Conrad <lconrad@concord.com> writes:

  > Your news postings and email would never get sent, if you didn't say
  > "J S". 

But that only happens with M-x gnus-unplugged RET, no?  M-x gnus RET
continues to work as before.

kai
-- 
Abort this operation?   [OK]  [Cancel]

Re: Agent startup (how it works)

[Laura Conrad]

Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE writes:

> Laura Conrad <lconrad@concord.com> writes:
> 
>   > Your news postings and email would never get sent, if you didn't say
>   > "J S". 
> 
> But that only happens with M-x gnus-unplugged RET, no?  M-x gnus RET
> continues to work as before.

I suppose so.  My reason for installing the agent was to not have to
work plugged (and tie up my phone line and incur online charges).  So
I didn't really use it much plugged.

-- 
Laura (mailto:lconrad@world.std.com , http://www.world.std.com/~lconrad/ )
(617) 661-8097	 
233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139, USA

Re: Agent startup (how it works)

[Harry Putnam]

Dan Christensen <jdc@jhu.edu> writes:

> Laura Conrad <lconrad@concord.com> writes:
> > Dan Christensen <jdc@jhu.edu> writes:
> > > Robert Epprecht <epprecht@sunweb.ch> writes:
> > > > ;; =========== .emacs
> > > > (require 'gnus-agent)
> > > 
> > > > put (gnus-agentize) at the end of .gnus.el
> > > 
> > > It would be nice if both of these steps were unnecessary.  Is there
> > > any reason that Gnus isn't always agentized?  Besides the "Plugged" in
> > > the mode line, would a typical non-agent user even notice a
> > > difference?
> > 
> > Your news postings and email would never get sent, if you didn't say
> > "J S". 
> 
> Why not?  `M-x gnus' would start Gnus plugged.  And when plugged,
> doesn't Gnus send mail and news immediately?
> 
> > That's actually one of the things I don't like about the design of the
> > agent -- I don't think it should affect your mail at all unless you
> > agentize the mail server.
> 
> When unplugged:
> 
> I think that Gnus should fetch incoming mail if the mail server isn't
> agentized (and not fetch it if the mail server is agentized).  ("The"
> mail server really means any mail server which has the get-new-mail
> variable set.)
> 
> And similarly for incoming news.

Agent already does this for incoming news ( on unagentized servers)

> For outgoing mail and news, I think the behaviour should be controlled
> by a new variable.  For example, something like `gnus-agent-queue'
> with possible values `t' (or `both'), `news', `mail' and `nil' (or `none').

This might be a possible course, but my own feeling is that when
"unplugged", gnus should behave as if actually unplugged, that is, no
racing on-line if you happen to press <RET> on a group belonging to an
unagentized server (nntp).  Currently the behavior is mixed and
confusing.

At present , no mail can be gotten when unplugged, yet news in
unagentized nntp groups can.  But try to send a message while in that
group and it isn't sent but queued, even though you are actually
on-line yet unplugged.

I think it would be lots less confusing if the behavior was consistent
across all groups.  When unplugged, no plugged type activity.

Anything that gnus can access on the local machine, should be possible
while unplugged or plugged.  Mail on the local spool should  be able
to be incorporated.  Same for any News spool on the local machine. If
it doens't require going online then gnus should be able to do it
"unplugged". 

The "can't do that while unplugged" message you get when pressing 
`J s' should have a concomitant message that comes up when pressing 
`C-c C-c' while unplugged, telling you that you have queued a message and
not "sent" it.  Don't know how others do, but I often forget to send
them.  Or forget that I am unplugged, close gnus, later wondering why
my message isn't showing up. Then later still, when batching, I see
something being sent and wonder what the heck it was.

That mode line message just isn't making it for me.
Of course, that may just be early onset senility....

Re: Agent startup

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Robert Epprecht <epprecht@sunweb.ch> writes:

> I made a new user on my Linux machine
> I made a simple .gnus.el like this:
> 
> ;; =========== .gnus.el
> (setq gnus-select-method '(nntp "news.sunrise.ch"))
> (setq gnus-verbose 10)		; let's hear what she will say
> (setq debug-on-error t)		; just in case
> (gnus-agentize)
> ============
> 
> 1st try:
> emacs -f gnus-unplugged
> 'Symbol's function definition is void: gnus-unplugged'
> I put (require 'gnus-agent) in .emacs

I did the same, but this didn't happen to me (in Pterodactyl 0.90.)

> 2nd try:
> emacs -f gnus-unplugged
> 'nntp (news.sunrise.ch) open error: 'No such file or directory: ~/News/agent/nntp/news.sunrise.ch/'

This neither.

And things actually worked otherwise as well, I think.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: Agent startup

[Robert Epprecht]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> Robert Epprecht <epprecht@sunweb.ch> writes:
> 
> > I made a new user on my Linux machine
> > I made a simple .gnus.el like this:
> > 
> > ;; =========== .gnus.el
> > (setq gnus-select-method '(nntp "news.sunrise.ch"))
> > (setq gnus-verbose 10)		; let's hear what she will say
> > (setq debug-on-error t)		; just in case
> > (gnus-agentize)
> > ============
> > 
> > 1st try:
> > emacs -f gnus-unplugged
> > 'Symbol's function definition is void: gnus-unplugged'
> > I put (require 'gnus-agent) in .emacs
> 
> I did the same, but this didn't happen to me (in Pterodactyl 0.90.)

I wanted to check to be shure, downloaded pgnus 0.90, repeated the test
but strange, I *did* get the same errors as with 5.6.45.
 
> > emacs -f gnus-unplugged
> > 'nntp (news.sunrise.ch) open error: 'No such file or directory: ~/News/agent/nntp/news.sunrise.ch/'
> 
> This neither.

hmm? Here I *do* get the same error with pgnus 0.90.
My Gnus lives in GNU emacs 20.3 on LINUX.

Robert Epprecht

Re: Agent startup

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Robert Epprecht <epprecht@sunweb.ch> writes:

> I wanted to check to be shure, downloaded pgnus 0.90, repeated the test
> but strange, I *did* get the same errors as with 5.6.45.
> 
> > > emacs -f gnus-unplugged
> > > 'nntp (news.sunrise.ch) open error: 'No such file or directory: ~/News/agent/nntp/news.sunrise.ch/'
> > 
> > This neither.
> 
> hmm? Here I *do* get the same error with pgnus 0.90.

I'm not sure I follow you here.  Did you get both these errors with
0.90, or just this last one?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: Agent startup

[Robert Epprecht]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> I'm not sure I follow you here.  Did you get both these errors with
> 0.90, or just this last one?

No I get *both* errors with pgnus 0.90
(exactly the same as with 5.6.45)

The error messages are
'Symbol's function definition is void: gnus-unplugged'

'nntp (news.sunrise.ch) open error: 'No such file or directory: ~/News/agent/nntp/news.sunrise.ch/'

Sorry for not being clear.
Robert Epprecht

Re: Agent startup

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Robert Epprecht <epprecht@sunweb.ch> writes:

> The error messages are
> 'Symbol's function definition is void: gnus-unplugged'
> 
> 'nntp (news.sunrise.ch) open error: 'No such file or directory: ~/News/agent/nntp/news.sunrise.ch/'

Could you mail me the backtraces you get?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: Agent startup

[Robert Epprecht]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> Could you mail me the backtraces you get?

Yes, here is what i did:
Linux / GNU Emacs 20.3 / Pterodactyl Gnus v0.90
I make a new user
======.emacs======
(setq load-path
 (cons (expand-file-name "/usr/local/share/emacs/pgnus-0.90/lisp") load-path))
(setq debug-on-error t)

======.gnus=======
(setq gnus-select-method '(nntp "news.sunrise.ch"))
(gnus-agentize)
==================

'emacs -f gnus-unplugged'
=====backtrace====
Signaling: (void-function gnus-unplugged)
  command-line-1(("-f" "gnus-unplugged"))
  command-line()
  normal-top-level()
=================

I put (require 'gnus-agent) in .emacs
'emacs -f gnus-unplugged' gives no backtrace, but in the last line
nntp (news.sunrise.ch) open error: 'No such file or directory: ~/News/agent/nnt
I answer 'y'
(to the question that I cannot see, though I would never do that in life ;-)
'y' and I see:
       *: nndraft:queue
       *: nndraft:drafts
(that seems ok)

Robert Epprecht

Re: Agent startup

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Robert Epprecht <epprecht@sunweb.ch> writes:

> 'emacs -f gnus-unplugged'
> =====backtrace====
> Signaling: (void-function gnus-unplugged)
>   command-line-1(("-f" "gnus-unplugged"))

Oh, like that.  You can't do that before this version of Gnus becomes
included in Emacs so that the autoload cookies are set up.

> I put (require 'gnus-agent) in .emacs
> 'emacs -f gnus-unplugged' gives no backtrace, but in the last line
> nntp (news.sunrise.ch) open error: 'No such file or directory: ~/News/agent/nnt

This seems ok, because there is nothing in the agent directories at
this point...

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen