From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.emacs.gnus.general/65564 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ted Zlatanov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel,gmane.emacs.gnus.general Subject: Re: encrypt.el in No Gnus 0.7 Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 11:58:50 -0600 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Message-ID: References: <87zly3y4ru.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <87odejy30k.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <54a15d860710311830s4fa203e3y53fbd6f51496f007@mail.gmail.com> <54a15d860711010824w6888aafdgb0a0e5d48f6fdebb@mail.gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1194371986 22473 80.91.229.12 (6 Nov 2007 17:59:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 17:59:46 +0000 (UTC) Cc: miles@gnu.org, ueno@unixuser.org, ding@gnus.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Nov 06 18:59:47 2007 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1IpSi5-0005U7-VX for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 06 Nov 2007 18:59:34 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IpShv-00035c-1N for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 06 Nov 2007 12:59:23 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1IpShf-0002yQ-8B for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 06 Nov 2007 12:59:07 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1IpShe-0002xG-8e for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 06 Nov 2007 12:59:06 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IpShd-0002x4-Ft for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 06 Nov 2007 12:59:05 -0500 Original-Received: from blockstar.com ([170.224.69.95] helo=mail.blockstar.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1IpShU-0001EB-VN; Tue, 06 Nov 2007 12:58:57 -0500 Original-Received: from mungo.local (c-67-186-103-18.hsd1.il.comcast.net [67.186.103.18]) by mail.blockstar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 580393F8559; Tue, 6 Nov 2007 10:20:33 -0800 (PST) X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Followup-To: rms@gnu.org, ueno@unixuser.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, ding@gnus.org, miles@gnu.org In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Mon, 05 Nov 2007 21:16:18 -0500") User-Agent: Gnus/5.110007 (No Gnus v0.7) Emacs/22.1.50 (darwin) X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:82669 gmane.emacs.gnus.general:65564 Archived-At: On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 21:16:18 -0500 Richard Stallman wrote: RS> Emacs is built around the idea of letting users do what they want, isn't RS> it? RS> In Emacs, users can change any Lisp code at run time. This general RS> facility, which lets users do absolutely whatever they want, means we RS> do not need to provide specific customization features for everything RS> somebody would like to change. We only provide specific customization RS> features where they are substantially useful. RS> Providing every hook that someone might imaginably want is an explicit RS> non-goal of Emacs development. (And always has been.) All right. I know what I find useful, and EasyPG is too limited in what it does to be useful for general encryption. It does a particular job well, which is interfacing with GnuPG, but I think it's a disservice to Emacs users to assume that GnuPG is all they need, and that they want to install it to get encryption/decryption services. If you disagree with me, there's little more I can say to convince you otherwise, since this is the essential point I'm trying to make. RS> The package was in Gnus, and I don't have bug reports. I have not RS> advertised the library so far, except for brief notes to Gnus users. So RS> I don't have a sample big enough to answer your question. RS> In other words, there is no indication that users actually use this RS> particular customization facility. As I explained, I have not advertised it. You're playing catch-22, justifying to yourself that no one will use the library with the lack of users before it's been advertised. To put it in your language, there is also no indication that users don't use encrypt.el. The sample size is too small. RS> You could post a request where Gnus users will see it, asking them to RS> let you know if they have used it. By now they have, this thread is CCed to the Gnus mailing list. RS> I found a few GPL ones (just a sample list) with a simple web search: RS> MCrypt http://mcrypt.sourceforge.net/ RS> AxCrypt http://www.axantum.com/AxCrypt/ RS> ScramDisk 4 Linux http://sourceforge.net/projects/sd4l/ RS> Several steganography tools (hide data inside an image, for example) RS> We are miscommunicating. I think you mean that in principle they RS> could be useful for encryption. Maybe they are. But the question is RS> whether this particular feature is useful, not whether other useful RS> encryption programs exist. Steganography is useful, in particular, and GnuPG doesn't support it. Users could hide secret information, or messages for other users, or watermarks. This data can hide inside images or other binary data in a public directory. This seems obviously useful to me. Maybe you're considering just encryption, rather than general cryptography (of which steganography is generally considered a part). We could change the package name to cipher.el or ecode.el if that makes more sense to you. RS> - pure Lisp ciphers for quick experimentation and sharing RS> That seems unimportant to me. I think cryptography is a field where experimentation is very important. Wouldn't you like to see Emacs become a breeding ground for cryptography work? I would love to see that. GnuPG is not a good vehicle for experimentation, since it requires C code and lots of prep work to do even simple things (as I understand it from reading the docs). RS> The main use of simple obfuscation ciphers is in sending mail, and for RS> that purpose, you cannot tell from a file name (there's none) or a RS> buffer name (it's the same as always) whether to do it. Obfuscation can be used for a lot more, but I don't know if that argument is all that interesting. Steganography is probably the more convincing argument, since it's essentially obfuscation by concealment, and there's plenty of interest in it. Ted