Writing enriched text

Writing enriched text

[François Pinard]

Hi, people.

This is an old wish of mine, maybe some of you has a ready solution for me?
What is the easiest way to write an text/enriched message, using Gnus?
Please take me by the hand and explain me how to proceed! :-)

-- 
François Pinard                            mailto:pinard@iro.umontreal.ca
Join the free Translation Project!    http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard

Re: Writing enriched text

[Colin Rafferty]

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François Pinard writes:

> What is the easiest way to write an text/enriched message, using Gnus?


[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/enriched, Size: 246 bytes --]

I'm note sure <bold>how</bold> to do it easily.  I
<italic>think</italic> that it would be similar to writing html by
hand, which is
<x-bg-color><param>DarkSlateGray</param><x-color><param>violet</param>hard</x-color></x-bg-color>, 
but doable.


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> Please take me by the hand and explain me how to proceed! :-)

Maybe take a look at etc/enriched.doc without letting it get parsed.
Then do some cut and paste.

-- 
Colin

Re: Writing enriched text

[Hrvoje Niksic]

Colin Rafferty <craffert@ms.com> writes:

> François Pinard writes:
> 
> > What is the easiest way to write an text/enriched message, using Gnus?
> 
> I'm note sure how to do it easily.  I think that it would be similar
> to writing html by hand, which is hard, but doable.

I'm almost positive that enriched mode has facilities for converting
text properties (e.g. those created by facemenu.el) to enriched.  Gnus
could even use it automatically if it detects text properties of that
kind in the message.

Re: Writing enriched text

[François Pinard]

Colin Rafferty <craffert@ms.com> écrit:

> François Pinard writes:

> > What is the easiest way to write an text/enriched message, using Gnus?

> I'm note sure how to do it easily.  I think that it would be similar
> to writing html by hand, which is hard, but doable.

Emacs already gives me tools for editing an enriched buffer (as per
`enriched.doc' which you mentioned).  So, I was at least intending to use
this; it should be easier than directly writing HTML.  Sending enriched
messages would be a good opportunity for me to acquire more familiarity
with the tools.

> > Please take me by the hand and explain me how to proceed! :-)

> Maybe take a look at etc/enriched.doc without letting it get parsed.
> Then do some cut and paste.

OK, granted, but which type of glue should I use?  More specifically, how
do I take care of the MML thing?  I never did anything more sophisticated
than using `C-c C-a'.  How did you do it on your side for the message you
sent, Colin?  What did you write exactly?

-- 
François Pinard                            mailto:pinard@iro.umontreal.ca
Join the free Translation Project!    http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard

Re: Writing enriched text

[Colin Rafferty]

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François Pinard writes:
> Colin Rafferty <craffert@ms.com> écrit:
>> François Pinard writes:

>> > What is the easiest way to write an text/enriched message, using Gnus?

>> I'm note sure how to do it easily.  I think that it would be similar
>> to writing html by hand, which is hard, but doable.

> Emacs already gives me tools for editing an enriched buffer (as per
> `enriched.doc' which you mentioned).  


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Where are these tools?  I can only see how to display something.
Where is `enriched-edit-mode'?


[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #2.2: Type: text/enriched, Size: 112 bytes --]

Where are these tools?  I can only see how to display something.
Where is <italic>enriched-edit-mode</italic>?


[-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 695 bytes --]


>> > Please take me by the hand and explain me how to proceed! :-)

>> Maybe take a look at etc/enriched.doc without letting it get parsed.
>> Then do some cut and paste.

> I never did anything more sophisticated than using `C-c C-a'.  How
> did you do it on your side for the message you sent, Colin?  

The `part' tag I created by guess-work, and the contents I created
by looking at etc/enriched.doc in an xterm (since XEmacs automatically 
converts it (how do I look at the encoded enriched.doc in XEmacs?)).

> What did you write exactly?

Fortunately, I never delete buffers.  I just went to that old message
buffer, and hit `C-x u'.

Here is exactly what I had before I hit `C-c C-c':


[-- Attachment #4: Document just before hitting C-c C-c --]
[-- Type: text/plain, Size: 769 bytes --]

To: GNUS Mailing List <ding@gnus.org>
Subject: Re: Writing enriched text
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-Attribution: >
References: <oqlnfnqaf2.fsf@titan.progiciels-bpi.ca>
.
François Pinard writes:

> What is the easiest way to write an text/enriched message, using Gnus?

<#part type=text/enriched disposition=inline>

I'm note sure <bold>how</bold> to do it easily.  I
<italic>think</italic> that it would be similar to writing html by
hand, which is
<x-bg-color><param>DarkSlateGray</param><x-color><param>violet</param>hard</x-color></x-bg-color>, 
but doable.

<#/part>

> Please take me by the hand and explain me how to proceed! :-)

Maybe take a look at etc/enriched.doc without letting it get parsed.
Then do some cut and paste.

-- 
Colin

[-- Attachment #5: Type: text/plain, Size: 11 bytes --]


-- 
Colin

Re: Writing enriched text

[Kai.Grossjohann]

Colin Rafferty <craffert@ms.com> writes:

  > François Pinard writes:
  > 
  > > Emacs already gives me tools for editing an enriched buffer (as per
  > > `enriched.doc' which you mentioned).  
  > 
  > Where are these tools?  I can only see how to display something.
  > Where is `enriched-edit-mode'?

You type C-x C-f /tmp/foo RET.  You then type M-x enriched-mode RET.
You then change text properties by marking a region then using
C-down-mouse-2 (the `Text Properties' menu, M-g is an alternative) to
make words bold, say.  You then say C-x C-s.

The resulting file /tmp/foo will contain text/enriched tags.

The editing support is C-down-mouse-2.

kai
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Re: Writing enriched text

[Colin Rafferty]

Kai Grossjohann writes:
> Colin Rafferty <craffert@ms.com> writes:
>> François Pinard writes:
>> 
>> > Emacs already gives me tools for editing an enriched buffer (as per
>> > `enriched.doc' which you mentioned).  
>> 
>> Where are these tools?  I can only see how to display something.
>> Where is `enriched-edit-mode'?

> You type C-x C-f /tmp/foo RET.  You then type M-x enriched-mode RET.
> You then change text properties by marking a region then using
> C-down-mouse-2 (the `Text Properties' menu, M-g is an alternative) to
> make words bold, say.  You then say C-x C-s.

I see the light.  This is an Emacs thing.  Or at least, Emacs
bindings.

The enriched-mode things works, but it is a pain in the ass doing all
the text-properties by hand.

-- 
Colin

Re: Writing enriched text

[Kai.Grossjohann]

Colin Rafferty <craffert@ms.com> writes:

  > The enriched-mode things works, but it is a pain in the ass doing all
  > the text-properties by hand.

Oh, the wonders of `direct manipulation'...  But seriously, how should
Emacs know which words should be italic?

kai
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Re: Writing enriched text

[Colin Rafferty]

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Kai Grossjohann writes:
> Colin Rafferty <craffert@ms.com> writes:

>> The enriched-mode things works, but it is a pain in the ass doing all
>> the text-properties by hand.

> Oh, the wonders of `direct manipulation'...  But seriously, how should
> Emacs know which words should be italic?


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My problem is that XEmacs doesn't have the menus to change the text
properties the way that FSF Emacs does.

In enriched-mode, an emacs just knows what is italicized and what is
not.  In the text/enriched, it looks like this: <italic>this is italic
text</italic>.


[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #2.2: Type: text/enriched, Size: 280 bytes --]

My problem is that XEmacs doesn't have the menus to change the text
properties the way that FSF Emacs does.


In enriched-mode, an emacs just knows what is italicized and what is
not.  In the text/enriched, it looks this: <<italic><italic>this is
italic text</italic><</italic>.


[-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 11 bytes --]


-- 
Colin

Re: Writing enriched text

[Kai.Grossjohann]

Colin Rafferty <craffert@ms.com> writes:

  > My problem is that XEmacs doesn't have the menus to change the text
  > properties the way that FSF Emacs does.

Oh, I see.  I don't use XEmacs, so I didn't know about this problem.

kai
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Re: Writing enriched text

[Hrvoje Niksic]

Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE writes:

> Colin Rafferty <craffert@ms.com> writes:
> 
>   > The enriched-mode things works, but it is a pain in the ass doing all
>   > the text-properties by hand.
> 
> Oh, the wonders of `direct manipulation'...  But seriously, how
> should Emacs know which words should be italic?

By examining text properties.

Re: Writing enriched text

[Kai.Grossjohann]

Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> writes:

  > Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE writes:
  > 
  > > Colin Rafferty <craffert@ms.com> writes:
  > > 
  > >   > The enriched-mode things works, but it is a pain in the ass doing all
  > >   > the text-properties by hand.
  > > 
  > > Oh, the wonders of `direct manipulation'...  But seriously, how
  > > should Emacs know which words should be italic?
  > 
  > By examining text properties.

And how do the text properties get there?  -- By hand.

Infloop :-)

kai
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Re: Writing enriched text

[Hrvoje Niksic]

Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE writes:

> Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> writes:
> 
>   > Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE writes:
>   > 
>   > > Colin Rafferty <craffert@ms.com> writes:
>   > > 
>   > >   > The enriched-mode things works, but it is a pain in the
>   > >   > ass doing all the text-properties by hand.
>   > > 
>   > > Oh, the wonders of `direct manipulation'...  But seriously, how
>   > > should Emacs know which words should be italic?
>   > 
>   > By examining text properties.
> 
> And how do the text properties get there?  -- By hand.

"By ``text properties'' menu entry."  Or by whatever interface someone
cares to implement.

Re: Writing enriched text

[William M. Perry]

Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> writes:

> Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE writes:
> 
> > Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> writes:
> > 
> >   > Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE writes:
> >   > 
> >   > > Colin Rafferty <craffert@ms.com> writes:
> >   > > 
> >   > >   > The enriched-mode things works, but it is a pain in the
> >   > >   > ass doing all the text-properties by hand.
> >   > > 
> >   > > Oh, the wonders of `direct manipulation'...  But seriously, how
> >   > > should Emacs know which words should be italic?
> >   > 
> >   > By examining text properties.
> > 
> > And how do the text properties get there?  -- By hand.
> 
> "By ``text properties'' menu entry."  Or by whatever interface someone
> cares to implement.

M-x message-prettification-minor-mode

It could add some keybinding to do the fun things like bold, italic, etc.

You could even make it smart enough that if the user has used _only_ things 
that can be represented as *bold* or /italic/, it would send them out like
that, otherwise it could drop it into HTML or richtext.

-Bill P.

Re: Writing enriched text

[Per Abrahamsen]

wmperry@aventail.com (William M. Perry) writes:

> M-x message-prettification-minor-mode
> 
> It could add some keybinding to do the fun things like bold, italic, etc.

But the keybindings are already there, in the Edit->Text Properties
menu or the M-g prefix.  In fact, `M-g u' and `M-g b' will already
make the text _\bu_\bn_\bd_\be_\br_\bl_\bi_\bn_\be or b\bbo\bol\bld\bd, even in a clumsy way.

> You could even make it smart enough that if the user has used _only_ things 
> that can be represented as *bold* or /italic/, it would send them out like
> that, otherwise it could drop it into HTML or richtext.

I think the best thing to do would be to make message-mode smart about
understanding text properties, combined with a `format preference'.

(defcustom message-rich-text-preferences
   '("text/plain"
     "text/plain + _\bb_\ba_\bc_\bk_\bs_\bp_\ba_\bc_\be hack."
     "text/plain + /format/ *conventions*"
     "text/enriched"
     "text/html")
   "Use the first format in the list supporting text properties in buffer.")

Re: Writing enriched text

[Jan Vroonhof]

Colin Rafferty <craffert@ms.com> writes:

> 
> My problem is that XEmacs doesn't have the menus to change the text
> properties the way that FSF Emacs does.

It does. The autoloading seems to be a bit broken though.

(require 'facemenu)
(facemenu-update)

should give you an Edit->Text Properties menu

Jan

Re: Writing enriched text

[Colin Rafferty]

Jan Vroonhof writes:
> Colin Rafferty <craffert@ms.com> writes:

>> My problem is that XEmacs doesn't have the menus to change the text
>> properties the way that FSF Emacs does.

> It does. The autoloading seems to be a bit broken though.

> (require 'facemenu)
> (facemenu-update)

> should give you an Edit->Text Properties menu

Perfect.  Thanks.

-- 
Colin

Re: Writing enriched text

[David Hedbor]

Hmm. I had to load facemenu explicitly to display your message (or
it stopped on a facemenu function not being found). 

-- 
[ Below is a random fortune, which is unrelated to the above message. ]
travel, n.:
	Something that makes you feel like you're getting somewhere.

Re: Writing enriched text

[Hrvoje Niksic]

David Hedbor <david@hedbor.org> writes:

> Hmm. I had to load facemenu explicitly to display your message (or
> it stopped on a facemenu function not being found).

This means that facemenu is not getting correctly autoloaded in your
XEmacs.  It works right for me in XEmacs 21.2.

Re: Writing enriched text

[Bruce Stephens]

Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> writes:

> David Hedbor <david@hedbor.org> writes:
> 
> > Hmm. I had to load facemenu explicitly to display your message (or
> > it stopped on a facemenu function not being found).
> 
> This means that facemenu is not getting correctly autoloaded in your
> XEmacs.  It works right for me in XEmacs 21.2.

Hmm, worked all right for me in XEmacs 20.4.  Ah, in .emacs, I have:

        (autoload 'facemenu-get-face "facemenu")

Re: Writing enriched text

[David Hedbor]

Bruce Stephens <bruce@cenderis.demon.co.uk> writes:

> Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> writes:
> 
> > David Hedbor <david@hedbor.org> writes:
> > 
> > > Hmm. I had to load facemenu explicitly to display your message (or
> > > it stopped on a facemenu function not being found).
> > 
> > This means that facemenu is not getting correctly autoloaded in your
> > XEmacs.  It works right for me in XEmacs 21.2.
> 
> Hmm, worked all right for me in XEmacs 20.4.  Ah, in .emacs, I have:
> 
>         (autoload 'facemenu-get-face "facemenu")

That is the function that wasn't found, indeed. I added a (require
'facemenu) to .gnus.el instead.

-- 
[ Below is a random fortune, which is unrelated to the above message. ]
Help!  I'm trapped in a Chinese computer factory!

enriched bug (was Re: Writing enriched text)

[Stainless Steel Rat]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

When I try to read Colin's message I get this backtrace (trimmed
extensively):

Signaling: (void-function facemenu-get-face)
  facemenu-get-face(fg:violet)
  enriched-decode-foreground(104 108 "violet")
  apply(enriched-decode-foreground 104 108 "violet")

This is with Pterodactyl Gnus 0.83, XEmacs 20.4 compiled with every --with
option that can be set 'no' set 'no'.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v0.9.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org

iD8DBQE3HRYFgl+vIlSVSNkRAsEWAKDx8IJSlmzwY53pnOlNZd4/1AuHowCg8EtO
CQYLuXnQEH0ar4uh3tl9KCo=
=qjq/
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-- 
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged
PGP Key: at a key server near you!  \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball.

Re: enriched bug (was Re: Writing enriched text)

[Hrvoje Niksic]

Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes:

> When I try to read Colin's message I get this backtrace (trimmed
> extensively):
> 
> Signaling: (void-function facemenu-get-face)
>   facemenu-get-face(fg:violet)
>   enriched-decode-foreground(104 108 "violet")
>   apply(enriched-decode-foreground 104 108 "violet")
> 
> This is with Pterodactyl Gnus 0.83, XEmacs 20.4 compiled with every
> --with option that can be set 'no' set 'no'.

It's a bug in XEmacs 20.4.  To work around it, you need to add
something like:

    (autoload 'facemenu-get-face "facemenu")

to your .emacs.

Can't read this! (was Re: Writing enriched text)

[Jaap-Henk Hoepman]

On 20 Apr 1999 17:26:57 -0400 Colin Rafferty <craffert@ms.com> writes:
> François Pinard writes:
> 
> > What is the easiest way to write an text/enriched message, using Gnus?
> 

Trying to read Colin's message gives the following error (using pgnus 0.80)

  Loading enriched...
  Loading enriched...done
  Enriched: decoding document...
  Symbol's function definition is void: facemenu-get-face

And trying to include it in this followup does not include anything....

What gives,

Jaap-Henk

-- 
Jaap-Henk Hoepman             | Come sail your ships around me
Dept. of Computer Science     | And burn these bridges down
University of Twente          |       Nick Cave - "Ship Song"
Email: hoepman@cs.utwente.nl === WWW: www.cs.utwente.nl/~hoepman
Phone: +31 53 4893795 === Secr: +31 53 4893770 === Fax: +31 53 4894590
PGP ID: 0xF52E26DD  Fingerprint: 1AED DDEB C7F1 DBB3  0556 4732 4217 ABEF

Re: Can't read this! (was Re: Writing enriched text)

[Lee Willis]

Jaap-Henk Hoepman <hoepman@cs.utwente.nl> writes:

> Trying to read Colin's message gives the following error (using pgnus 0.80)
> 
>   Loading enriched...
>   Loading enriched...done
>   Enriched: decoding document...
>   Symbol's function definition is void: facemenu-get-face
> 
> And trying to include it in this followup does not include anything....
> What gives,

It's a bug in Xemacs 20.4 apparently. I can't remember the work-around
but it has been posted to this list recently so you may like to check
the archives. I think it involves simply putting a require in your
.gnus.el but I can't remember what exactly you have to require :)

HTH
Lee.
-- 
I was doing object-oriented assembly at 1 year old ...  
For some reason my mom insists on calling it "Playing with blocks"

Re: Can't read this! (was Re: Writing enriched text)

[Justin Sheehy]

Lee Willis <lee@gbdirect.co.uk> writes:

> Jaap-Henk Hoepman <hoepman@cs.utwente.nl> writes:

> >   Symbol's function definition is void: facemenu-get-face

> It's a bug in Xemacs 20.4 apparently. I can't remember the work-around

This is probably what you are looking for:

(autoload 'facemenu-get-face "facemenu")

Just put that in your ~/.emacs and this bug shouldn't bite you again.

-- 
Justin Sheehy

In a cloud bones of steel.
  

Re: Writing enriched text

[Kai.Grossjohann]

François Pinard <pinard@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

  > This is an old wish of mine, maybe some of you has a ready
  > solution for me?  What is the easiest way to write an
  > text/enriched message, using Gnus?  Please take me by the hand and
  > explain me how to proceed! :-)

Never thought about it.  Maybe M-x make-indirect-buffer RET is part of
the solution?  (After narrowing the message buffer to the body.)

Hm.  That wouldn't work.  Hm.  Enriched-mode adds a Content-type
header to the start of the text, which would then appear in the actual
text in the message.

kai
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Re: Writing enriched text

[William M. Perry]

Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE writes:

> François Pinard <pinard@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
> 
>   > This is an old wish of mine, maybe some of you has a ready
>   > solution for me?  What is the easiest way to write an
>   > text/enriched message, using Gnus?  Please take me by the hand and
>   > explain me how to proceed! :-)
> 
> Never thought about it.  Maybe M-x make-indirect-buffer RET is part of
> the solution?  (After narrowing the message buffer to the body.)
> 
> Hm.  That wouldn't work.  Hm.  Enriched-mode adds a Content-type
> header to the start of the text, which would then appear in the actual
> text in the message.

What we really need is an html and/or enriched-text minor mode.  Or just
have message-mode smart enough to use 'htmlify.el' if it detects text
properties other than MML ones after mail-header-separator.

You would of course want this configurable, similar to how netscape lets
you do it:

1. Always send only HTML email
2. Never send HTML email
3. Always send HTML with text/plain alternative
4. Ask the user

-Bill P.

Re: Writing enriched text

[Laura Conrad]

wmperry@aventail.com (William M. Perry) writes:

> You would of course want this configurable, similar to how netscape lets
> you do it:
> 
> 1. Always send only HTML email
> 2. Never send HTML email
> 3. Always send HTML with text/plain alternative
> 4. Ask the user

But, unlike netscape, we would NOT make 3 the default.  

I assume we would also set up some configuration variable so that
users could vary this by group or to-address or whatever.

-- 
Laura (mailto:lconrad@world.std.com , http://www.world.std.com/~lconrad/ )
(617) 661-8097	 
233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139

Re: Writing enriched text

[Kai.Grossjohann]

wmperry@aventail.com (William M. Perry) writes:

  > What we really need is an html and/or enriched-text minor mode.

Is this sufficient?  Suppose people are composing multipart messages
where several parts should be edited using such special modes.  RMS
wants Emacs to go more into the WYSYWYG direction, so we can expect
stuff like this to happen more often.

So, what we need is a way to edit a buffer using some special mode.
When editing in that mode is finished, the internal representation
needs to be transformed to the storage form (format-alist?) which
would then be included in the message.

Or, we need a way to dissect a buffer into areas each of which is
edited in a different mode.  OLE, anyone?

Am I misunderstanding something?  I'm not saying all of this should
work right now, but the basic machinery could be there to be used with
enriched-mode now (and maybe htmlify) and other stuff could be plugged
in later.

kai
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Re: Writing enriched text

[Alan Shutko]

Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE writes:

> Or, we need a way to dissect a buffer into areas each of which is
> edited in a different mode.  OLE, anyone?


We _definately_ need this.  This would make help writing javascript in
html, yacc, lex, web, and tons of other places.  If you figure out how
to do this....

-- 
Alan Shutko <ats@acm.org> - By consent of the corrupted
You will wish you hadn't.

Re: Writing enriched text

[Oscar Figueiredo]

>>>>> "Alan" == Alan Shutko <ats@acm.org> writes:

  Alan> Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE writes:
  >> Or, we need a way to dissect a buffer into areas each of which is
  >> edited in a different mode.  OLE, anyone?

  Alan> We _definately_ need this.  This would make help writing javascript in
  Alan> html, yacc, lex, web, and tons of other places.  If you figure out how
  Alan> to do this....

This has been more or less done already though not exactly as you would expect:
look for "indirect buffers" in Emacs 20.something and XEmacs 21.2

>From the XEmacs 21.2 NEWS file:

** You can now create "indirect buffers", like in GNU Emacs.  An
indirect buffer shares its text with another buffer ("base buffer"),
but has its own major mode, local variables, extents, and narrowing.
An indirect buffer has a name of its own, distinct from those of the
base buffer and all other buffers.  An indirect buffer cannot itself
be visiting a file (though its base buffer can be).  The base buffer
cannot itself be indirect.

Use (make-indirect-buffer BASE-BUFFER NAME) to make an indirect buffer
named NAME whose base is BASE-BUFFER.  If BASE-BUFFER is an indirect
buffer, its base buffer is used as the base for the new buffer.

You can make an indirect buffer current, or switch to it in a window,
just as you would a non-indirect buffer.

The function `buffer-base-buffer', given an indirect buffer, returns
its base buffer.  It returns nil when given an ordinary buffer (not
indirect).  `buffer-indirect-children' returns a list of the indirect
children of a base buffer.

Oscar

Re: Writing enriched text

[William M. Perry]

Oscar Figueiredo <Oscar.Figueiredo@di.epfl.ch> writes:

> >>>>> "Alan" == Alan Shutko <ats@acm.org> writes:
> 
>   Alan> Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE writes:
>   >> Or, we need a way to dissect a buffer into areas each of which is
>   >> edited in a different mode.  OLE, anyone?
> 
>   Alan> We _definately_ need this.  This would make help writing javascript in
>   Alan> html, yacc, lex, web, and tons of other places.  If you figure out how
>   Alan> to do this....
> 
> This has been more or less done already though not exactly as you would
> expect: look for "indirect buffers" in Emacs 20.something and XEmacs 21.2

What would be ideal is if you could change the syntax table and keymaps in
an extent/text property region.  I know you can do this for keymaps, but I
don't think you can durrently to it for syntax tables.

Then instead of an indirect _buffer_, you would have a region of the buffer
that would in effect be in 'sgml-mode' or 'enriched-mode'.  But you would
still really want the bindings of 'message-mode' to be in effect, so this
points to using minor modes instead of mixing major ones... hmmmm :(

We just need really studly minor mode versions of sgml-mode and
enriched-mode that integrate really well with mail-mode or message-mode.

-Bill P.

Re: Writing enriched text

[Kai.Grossjohann]

Oscar Figueiredo <Oscar.Figueiredo@di.epfl.ch> writes:

  > This has been more or less done already though not exactly as you
  > would expect: look for "indirect buffers" in Emacs 20.something
  > and XEmacs 21.2 [...]

I know about this, but I think it is not complete: what's missing is a
way to transform an enriched-mode buffer from the internal
representation to the text/enriched representation (i.e. replacing
face attributes with tags).  And vice versa, of course.

So, we would need a command which takes the contents of a <part>,
grinds it through the format-alist mechanism (or a similar one) and
presents the result in a new buffer.  The user may then edit and hit
C-c C-c, whereupon the format-list mechnism (or a similar one) takes
over again and the result is put between the <part>...</part> tags.

kai
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Re: Writing enriched text

[François Pinard]

Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE writes:

> [...] what's missing is a way to transform an enriched-mode buffer
> from the internal representation to the text/enriched representation
> (i.e. replacing face attributes with tags).  And vice versa, of course.

These are already available.  See functions `format-decode-region' and
`format-encode-region'.

> So, we would need a command which takes the contents of a <part>,
> grinds it through the format-alist mechanism (or a similar one) and
> presents the result in a new buffer.  The user may then edit and hit
> C-c C-c, whereupon the format-list mechnism (or a similar one) takes
> over again and the result is put between the <part>...</part> tags.

This is the kind of thing I was hoping to find from my initial request.
Maybe we have all the necessary building blocks by now.  We only miss the
initiative of someone to add the glue cleverly.

We are not far from having the capability of composing text/enriched quite
easily right under Gnus.

-- 
François Pinard                            mailto:pinard@iro.umontreal.ca
Join the free Translation Project!    http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard

Re: Writing enriched text

[Hrvoje Niksic]

Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE writes:

> I know about this, but I think it is not complete: what's missing is a
> way to transform an enriched-mode buffer from the internal
> representation to the text/enriched representation (i.e. replacing
> face attributes with tags).  And vice versa, of course.

How can you say that?  Have you even looked at `enriched.el'?  The
functions `enriched-encode' and `enriched-decode' happen to do exactly
what you describe.

Re: Writing enriched text

[Kai.Grossjohann]

Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> writes:

  > How can you say that?

Sorry, I must've had a bad day.

kai
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Re: Writing enriched text

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE writes:

> Or, we need a way to dissect a buffer into areas each of which is
> edited in a different mode.  OLE, anyone?

Yes, I think that would be useful.  HTML/JavaScript, for instance, or
text mode when editing doc strings in Elisp files, etc.

But the major modes are really, really, really buffer-based, and I
think that adding such a capability would be a major deal.  Minor
modes are easier to switch on/off when wandering around in the buffer, 
but re-implementing all major modes as minor modes would also be a
huge amount of work.

But if it could be done, it would be neat.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: Writing enriched text

[Hrvoje Niksic]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> But the major modes are really, really, really buffer-based, and I
> think that adding such a capability would be a major deal.

But couldn't mml setup a command that puts the user to a temporary
buffer, and have C-c C-c exit out of it with the proper conversions?
This sounds easy to implement and easy to use.

If you are feeling maximally gung, you can even implement it using
indirect buffers.

Re: Writing enriched text

[Colin Marquardt]

* Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> writes:

> Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:
>> But the major modes are really, really, really buffer-based, and I
>> think that adding such a capability would be a major deal.

> But couldn't mml setup a command that puts the user to a temporary
> buffer, and have C-c C-c exit out of it with the proper conversions?
> This sounds easy to implement and easy to use.

> If you are feeling maximally gung, you can even implement it using
> indirect buffers.

What about:

 ;;; mmm.el --- Multiple Major Modes for XEmacs
 [...]
 ;;; Commentary:
 
 ;; This file implements a XEmacs lisp extension that allows multiple
 ;; major modes to co-exist in a single buffer. It's a workable, yet
 ;; imperfect, solution that basically supports key bindings and
 ;; font-lock in those regions with a secondary major mode. To
 ;; activate one secondary major mode, simply add a hook to the
 ;; primary major mode's hook.  For details, see defun
 ;; `mmm-activator'.

I remember seeing you comment positively on this, but haven't used it 
myself.

The example "secondary major mode" Gongquan Chen is providing is
 
 ;;; mmm-html.el --- Enabling CSS/Javascript/VBScript modes in HTML mode

Cheers,
  Colin

-- 
Colin Marquardt <colin.marquardt@gmx.de>

Re: Writing enriched text

[Hrvoje Niksic]

Colin Marquardt <colin.marquardt@gmx.de> writes:

> > If you are feeling maximally gung, you can even implement it using
> > indirect buffers.
> 
> What about:
> 
>  ;;; mmm.el --- Multiple Major Modes for XEmacs
[...]

Well, it's a cool hack, but I don't think you can quite use it for
"serious" major modes.

Re: Writing enriched text

[Jan Vroonhof]

Colin Marquardt <colin.marquardt@gmx.de> writes:

>  ;;; mmm.el --- Multiple Major Modes for XEmacs
>  [...]
>  ;;; Commentary:

Do you have an URL for this?

Jan

Re: Writing enriched text

[Colin Marquardt]

* Jan Vroonhof <vroonhof@math.ethz.ch> writes:

> Colin Marquardt <colin.marquardt@gmx.de> writes:
>> ;;; mmm.el --- Multiple Major Modes for XEmacs
>> [...]
>> ;;; Commentary:

> Do you have an URL for this?

Yes, it's

 http://members.tripod.com/gchen2/xemacs/

Cheers,
 Colin

-- 
Colin Marquardt <colin.marquardt@gmx.de>

Re: Writing enriched text

[François Pinard]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 286 bytes --]

Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> writes:

> If you are feeling maximally gung, you can even implement it using
> indirect buffers.

I do not know what `gung' means (would someone tell me? :-), but if indirect
buffers allow me to directly and easily edit text/enriched between the
proper 

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 209 bytes --]

and </#part> in enriched mode, then `gung' I should be!

-- 
François Pinard                            mailto:pinard@iro.umontreal.ca
Join the free Translation Project!    http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard

Re: Writing enriched text

[Hrvoje Niksic]

François Pinard <pinard@IRO.UMontreal.CA> writes:

> Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> writes:
> 
> > If you are feeling maximally gung, you can even implement it using
> > indirect buffers.
> 
> I do not know what `gung' means (would someone tell me? :-), but if
> indirect buffers allow me to directly and easily edit text/enriched
> between the proper and </#part> in enriched mode, then `gung' I
> should be!

Indirect buffers are a feature that is still relatively new in Emacs
-- I haven't seen code seriously using it -- that allows you to have
several different buffers share the same buffer text.  This means that 
you can create an "indirect buffer" out of the message buffer, narrow
it to the <part>...</part>, and put it in enriched mode.

Re: Writing enriched text

[William M. Perry]

Laura Conrad <lconrad@concord.com> writes:

> wmperry@aventail.com (William M. Perry) writes:
> 
> > You would of course want this configurable, similar to how netscape lets
> > you do it:
> > 
> > 1. Always send only HTML email
> > 2. Never send HTML email
> > 3. Always send HTML with text/plain alternative
> > 4. Ask the user
> 
> But, unlike netscape, we would NOT make 3 the default.  
> 
> I assume we would also set up some configuration variable so that
> users could vary this by group or to-address or whatever.

Could be done via a posting-style type variable, or a group property.  You
could have something like 

(defcustom message-html-posting-style 'ask
  "*Controls how and when to post HTML email."
  :group 'message
  :type '(choice (const :tag "Ask when necessary" ask)
                 (const :tag "Always send only HTML" html)
                 (const :tag "Always send HTML and plain text" both)
                 (const :tag "Never send HTML" never)
                 (sexp  :tag "Custom function" nil)))

-Bill P.

Re: Writing enriched text

[François Pinard]

Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE écrit:

>   > What is the easiest way to write an text/enriched message, using Gnus?

> Never thought about it.  Maybe M-x make-indirect-buffer RET is part of
> the solution?  (After narrowing the message buffer to the body.)

In fact, _before_ narrowing the message buffer.

> Hm.  That wouldn't work.  Hm.  Enriched-mode adds a Content-type header
> to the start of the text, which would then appear in the actual text in
> the message.

It could work.  We would just have to clean up the thing before the message
goes out.

-- 
François Pinard                            mailto:pinard@iro.umontreal.ca
Join the free Translation Project!    http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard