Ghost e-mail groups

Ghost e-mail groups

[Shane Holder]

I've got ghost groups showing up in my Group bufer.

I have:

   (setq gnus-secondary-select-methods
 	  '((nnfolder "private")))

in .gnus.  And I created 2 groups using G-m one an nnfolder group and
the other a nnml group.  I wanted to do some performance testing
between nnfolder and nnml.  I then copied articles from my mail group
to these two groups.  Now when I start gnus I get

       0: nnfolder+private:gnus
    1000: nnfolder+private:nnfolder.test
    1000: nnfolder+private:nnml.test
*      0: nnfolder+private:mail.misc
      26: news.groups.questions
      27: gnu.emacs.gnus
*      0: nnml:nnml.test
*      0: nnfolder:nnfolder.test
       2: nndraft:drafts

the groups showing 1000 articles are the ghost groups.

My ~/Mail/active file:

nnfolder.test 1000 1 y
perl 36 1 y
mail.misc 8424 5004 y
xemacs 57 1 y
gnus 481 1 y
nnml.test 1000 1 y

This didn't happen under the "released" gnus.  Any ideas as to what's
going on?

Shane

Re: Ghost e-mail groups

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Shane Holder <holder@rsn.hp.com> writes:

> in .gnus.  And I created 2 groups using G-m one an nnfolder group and
> the other a nnml group.

Did you create them with "nnfolder" named as the backend or "private"?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: Ghost e-mail groups

[Shane Holder]

>>>>> "Lars" == Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

  Lars> Shane Holder <holder@rsn.hp.com> writes:
  >> in .gnus.  And I created 2 groups using G-m one an nnfolder group and
  >> the other a nnml group.

  Lars> Did you create them with "nnfolder" named as the backend or "private"?

I'm not sure what you're asking here, are you asking about the
prompting after G-m?  If so, I created the nnml.test group with a
backend of nnml and the nnfolder.test group with a backend of
nnfolder.

I could have been more clear in my original post.  The groups that
show 1000 articles are pointing to the same articles that the
nnml:nnml.test and nnfolder:nnfolder.test groups are pointing to.  And
if I kill them C-k they keep coming back.  And if I mark all the
articles as read, they keep coming back with 1000 articles.

Shane

Re: Ghost e-mail groups

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Shane Holder <holder@rsn.hp.com> writes:

> I'm not sure what you're asking here, are you asking about the
> prompting after G-m?

Yes.

> If so, I created the nnml.test group with a backend of nnml and the
> nnfolder.test group with a backend of nnfolder.

Try saying "private" instead of "nnfolder".

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: Ghost e-mail groups

[Kai.Grossjohann]

Shane Holder <holder@rsn.hp.com> writes:

  > I'm not sure what you're asking here, are you asking about the
  > prompting after G-m?  If so, I created the nnml.test group with a
  > backend of nnml and the nnfolder.test group with a backend of
  > nnfolder.

I think when your secondary-select-method says (nnfolder "private"),
then you should enter "private" at the G m prompt, or maybe
"nnfolder+private".

My secondary select method is (nnml "") (note the empty string), so I
can say "nnml" and that's it.

I don't really grok this server name stuff.

kai
-- 
I like _\bb_\bo_\bt_\bh kinds of music.

Re: Ghost e-mail groups

[Shane Holder]

>>>>> "Kai" == Kai Grossjohann <Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE> writes:

  Kai> Shane Holder <holder@rsn.hp.com> writes:

  >> I'm not sure what you're asking here, are you asking about the
  >> prompting after G-m?  If so, I created the nnml.test group with a
  >> backend of nnml and the nnfolder.test group with a backend of
  >> nnfolder.

  Kai> I think when your secondary-select-method says (nnfolder
  Kai> "private"), then you should enter "private" at the G m prompt,
  Kai> or maybe "nnfolder+private".

Hmm, not sure I understand why it should be nnfolder+private or
private.

If I to G m in the Group buffer it prompts me for name and then select
method.

Group name: foo
Select Method: nnml

creates a group "*: nnml:foo".  If I then exit Gnus and restart gnus I
get another group, "*: nnfolder+private: foo", in addition to my
original group "nnml:foo", with no addition to my ~/Mail/active file
other than foo.  This wasn't the behavior in Gnus 5.6.45.  With the
same secondary select method in both versions.

If you're saying that based on my select method I should type in a
name other than what I want the name of the group to be, I'd have to
disagree.  A name should just be a label and if Gnus needs something
in addition to what I want to call it, it should add it itself when
the group is newly created not after starting a second time.

Now, I'm certain that other people are creating groups so it's highly
possible that I just don't understand what I'm doing, but having just
come from 5.6.45 there's a feature that others are already used to
that new users of pgnus won't understand.

Shane

Re: Ghost e-mail groups

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Shane Holder <holder@rsn.hp.com> writes:

> Hmm, not sure I understand why it should be nnfolder+private or
> private.

It should be "private" because that is the name of the virtual server
you want the group to come from.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: Ghost e-mail groups

[Kai.Grossjohann]

Shane Holder <holder@rsn.hp.com> writes:

  > creates a group "*: nnml:foo".  If I then exit Gnus and restart gnus I
  > get another group, "*: nnfolder+private: foo", in addition to my
  > original group "nnml:foo", with no addition to my ~/Mail/active file
  > other than foo.  This wasn't the behavior in Gnus 5.6.45.  With the
  > same secondary select method in both versions.

Hm.  Maybe the two select methods point to the same directory, and
Gnus gets confused if there are files from both (nnml "") and
(nnfolder "private") in the directory ~/Mail?  I don't quite
understand how the directory for (nnfolder "private") is chosen,
though.  Maybe the name `private' is used as directory name, maybe
not.  I think you have to set a server parameter, though.

kai
-- 
I like _\bb_\bo_\bt_\bh kinds of music.

Re: Ghost e-mail groups

[Shane Holder]

>>>>> "Lars" == Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

  Lars> Shane Holder <holder@rsn.hp.com> writes:
  >> Hmm, not sure I understand why it should be nnfolder+private or
  >> private.

  Lars> It should be "private" because that is the name of the virtual
  Lars> server you want the group to come from.

Why do I want the group to come from that named virtual server?  If I
understand correctly.  With the secondary-select-method I've created a
virtual server using the nnfolder select method named "private" Then I
wanted to create 2 new groups completely separate from the
secondary-select-method to store articles in, and I used G m to do this
one using a backend of nnfolder and the other using a nnml backend.
My assumption was that these 2 new groups would be completely separate
from anything else I had done to this point.  Obviously I have some
kind of misunderstanding about what I have done.  Can you help me out?

Thanks,
Shane

Re: Ghost e-mail groups

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Shane Holder <holder@rsn.hp.com> writes:

> Why do I want the group to come from that named virtual server?

"Virtual server" is a different name for "select method".  Or rather,
a virtual server is a named select method.

> If I understand correctly.  With the secondary-select-method I've
> created a virtual server using the nnfolder select method named
> "private" Then I wanted to create 2 new groups completely separate
> from the secondary-select-method to store articles in, and I used G
> m to do this one using a backend of nnfolder and the other using a
> nnml backend.

Oh, right.  Uhm.  Well, the problem is that the other virtual nnfolder
server you're trying to have groups in uses the save
`nnfolder-directory' as the "private" nnfolder server.  Define a new
nnfolder server that has a different `nnfolder-directory' and
`nnfolder-active-file' and stuff.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: Ghost e-mail groups

[Shane Holder]

>>>>> "Lars" == Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

  Lars> Oh, right.  Uhm.  Well, the problem is that the other virtual
  Lars> nnfolder server you're trying to have groups in uses the save
  Lars> `nnfolder-directory' as the "private" nnfolder server.  Define
  Lars> a new nnfolder server that has a different
  Lars> `nnfolder-directory' and `nnfolder-active-file' and stuff.

OK, now I'm completely confused. :)

Let's pretend I'm completely stupid, (Ok so it's not that much of a
stretch. :-] ).  So, if I'm using one select method to spool my
e-mail, say, oh, nnfolder, what is the proper procedure for creating
groups using other select methods but will only get messages through
(B m) or (B c).


Thanks,
Shane

Re: Ghost e-mail groups

[Kai.Grossjohann]

Shane Holder <holder@rsn.hp.com> writes:

  > [...] So, if I'm using one select method to spool my e-mail, say,
  > oh, nnfolder, what is the proper procedure for creating groups
  > using other select methods but will only get messages through (B
  > m) or (B c). [...]

>From the Group buffer, type ^ to go to the Server buffer.  There,
create a new server.  Then type C to close the server.  Then, type e
to edit it.  You can put several parameters there, here's the archive
server as an example:

,-----
| (nnfolder "archive"
|           (nnfolder-directory "~/Mail/archive")
|           (nnfolder-active-file "~/Mail/archive/active")
|           (nnfolder-get-new-mail nil)
|           (nnfolder-inhibit-expiry t))
`-----

Just change these as appropriate.  Then hit C-c C-c.  You can then
move and copy articles to that server.

Btw, you can have two servers which are both nnml, if you want.  Just
choose different names and different directories.

kai
-- 
I like _\bb_\bo_\bt_\bh kinds of music.

Re: Ghost e-mail groups

[Shane Holder]

>>>>> "Kai" == Kai Grossjohann <Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE> writes:

  Kai> From the Group buffer, type ^ to go to the Server buffer.  There,
  Kai> create a new server.  Then type C to close the server.  Then, type e
  Kai> to edit it.  You can put several parameters there, here's the archive
  Kai> server as an example:

  Kai> ,-----
  Kai> | (nnfolder "archive"
  Kai> |           (nnfolder-directory "~/Mail/archive")
  Kai> |           (nnfolder-active-file "~/Mail/archive/active")
  Kai> |           (nnfolder-get-new-mail nil)
  Kai> |           (nnfolder-inhibit-expiry t))
  Kai> `-----

  Kai> Just change these as appropriate.  Then hit C-c C-c.  You can then
  Kai> move and copy articles to that server.


So is this new to pgnus, I know I didn't have to do that under 5.6.45,
or is it because it's still pre-release?  It seems like a real
difficult way to get a group that doesn't really do anything.  A user
that is new to Gnus isn't going to figure this out, and while I took a
hiatus from Gnus I used gnus for several years and don't recall having
to do anything this intensive to get a new group.  I'm really not
trying to be difficult on this, but it does seem more difficult than
it should.

Shane

Re: Ghost e-mail groups

[Simon Josefsson]

Shane Holder <holder@rsn.hp.com> writes:

> It seems like a real difficult way to get a group that doesn't
> really do anything.  A user that is new to Gnus isn't going to
> figure this out, and while I took a hiatus from Gnus I used gnus for
> several years and don't recall having to do anything this intensive
> to get a new group.  I'm really not trying to be difficult on this,
> but it does seem more difficult than it should.

I agree. However, creating a new group/backend _is_ simple. What you
really want to do here and what Kai suggested that you should do is to
create a new backend that doesn't live in the same directory as one of
your other backends. Having several backends in the same directory is
a Bad Thing since they want exclusive ownership of a file called
"active". It's just too bad all backends default to the same
directory.

It would be neat if nnml+foo defaulted to live in ~/Mail/nnml+foo,
nnfolder+bar defaulted to ~/Mail/nnfolder+bar etc.

Changing a default like this carry a huge price tag though, so I guess
this isn't a practical solution...

Re: Ghost e-mail groups

[Kai.Grossjohann]

Shane Holder <holder@rsn.hp.com> writes:

  > They didn't stop working, just these new ones showed up. 

After thinking about this for a while, I now think the reason is that
Lars has added code which finds groups more often.  I.e., earlier most
people complained that they had set up Gnus to read mail, but their
mail groups didn't show up until they did `F'.

Now, maybe Gnus is a bit too aggressive in finding new groups.

Hm.

Or is it the changed default of gnus-read-active-file?  Does it help
to twiddle that?

Anyway, I think creating several backends to live in the same
directories is not a good idea.  Even if it used to work, that was
just luck.  Put your nnfolder groups in ~/Mail-nnfolder or something
and you'll be happy.

All of the above is just guesswork.  Lars, what do you think?

kai
-- 
I like _\bb_\bo_\bt_\bh kinds of music.

Re: Ghost e-mail groups

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE writes:

> All of the above is just guesswork.  Lars, what do you think?

I think the problem is the two server sharing the same active file.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: Ghost e-mail groups

[Shane Holder]

>>>>> "Kai" == Kai Grossjohann <Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE> writes:

  Kai> From the Group buffer, type ^ to go to the Server buffer.
  Kai> There, create a new server.  Then type C to close the server.
  Kai> Then, type e to edit it.  You can put several parameters there,
  Kai> here's the archive server as an example:

I tried this, and all of the servers except archive gave me an error
that the server can not be edited.  :(

I tried changing gnus-read-active-file and it made no difference.

Shane

Re: Ghost e-mail groups

[Kai.Grossjohann]

Shane Holder <holder@rsn.hp.com> writes:

  > I tried this, and all of the servers except archive gave me an error
  > that the server can not be edited.  :(

I can never remember whether the server needs to be open, closed, or
denied.  Did you type `C'?  If that doesn't do it, maybe `D' does.  Or
`O'? 

kai
-- 
I like _\bb_\bo_\bt_\bh kinds of music.

Re: Ghost e-mail groups

[Kai.Grossjohann]

Shane Holder <holder@rsn.hp.com> writes:

  > Tried all 3, "can not edit server" on all except archive, and it
  > allowed me to edit with the server being open.

Right.  I also see this.  Strange.

I'd expect servers mentioned in gnus-select-method and in
gnus-secondary-select-methods to be uneditable, but the others?

A bug?

kai
-- 
I like _\bb_\bo_\bt_\bh kinds of music.

Re: Ghost e-mail groups

[Shane Holder]

>>>>> "Kai" == Kai Grossjohann <Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE> writes:

  Kai> Shane Holder <holder@rsn.hp.com> writes:
  >> I tried this, and all of the servers except archive gave me an error
  >> that the server can not be edited.  :(

  Kai> I can never remember whether the server needs to be open,
  Kai> closed, or denied.  Did you type `C'?  If that doesn't do it,
  Kai> maybe `D' does.  Or `O'?

Tried all 3, "can not edit server" on all except archive, and it
allowed me to edit with the server being open.

Shane

Re: Ghost e-mail groups

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE writes:

> I'd expect servers mentioned in gnus-select-method and in
> gnus-secondary-select-methods to be uneditable, but the others?

The un-editable servers are servers that Gnus "knows of", usually
because some group or other have defined them in the select method for 
the group.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: Ghost e-mail groups

[Shane Holder]

>>>>> "Lars" == Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

  Lars> Shane Holder <holder@rsn.hp.com> writes:
  >> Hmm, not sure I understand why it should be nnfolder+private or
  >> private.

  Lars> It should be "private" because that is the name of the virtual server
  Lars> you want the group to come from.

OK, I deleted my ghost groups and the groups that they were ghosting,
and tried all over again to create a group.  According to the
instructions in this thread I should use either private or
nnfolder+private as my select method, but it's not offered as an
option.  When you do `G m' it asks for a name, which I'm going to
assume can be anything, I use "foo" no prefix no suffix, just foo.
Then Gnus asked me for a select method, I tried private, but it
wouldn't allow that, I then tried nnfolder+private and it wouldn't
allow that.  If you type <space> at the prompt, you will be offered
the following list.

archive	     nndir	  nnfolder     nnmbox	    nnspool
cache	     nndoc	  nngateway    nnmh	    nntp
nnagent	     nndraft	  nnkiboze     nnml	    nnvirtual
nnbabyl	     nneething	  nnlistserv   nnsoup	    nnwe

So, I guess this all boils down to, how do you create a group that
isn't recieving mail from a backend?

Shane

Re: Ghost e-mail groups

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Shane Holder <holder@rsn.hp.com> writes:

> OK, I deleted my ghost groups and the groups that they were ghosting,
> and tried all over again to create a group.  According to the
> instructions in this thread I should use either private or
> nnfolder+private

"private".

> as my select method, but it's not offered as an
> option.  When you do `G m' it asks for a name, which I'm going to
> assume can be anything, I use "foo" no prefix no suffix, just foo.
> Then Gnus asked me for a select method, I tried private, but it
> wouldn't allow that,

If you `M-g' a nnfolder+private group first, does that change
anything? 

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: Ghost e-mail groups

[Shane Holder]

>>>>> "Lars" == Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

  >> as my select method, but it's not offered as an
  >> option.  When you do `G m' it asks for a name, which I'm going to
  >> assume can be anything, I use "foo" no prefix no suffix, just foo.
  >> Then Gnus asked me for a select method, I tried private, but it
  >> wouldn't allow that,

  Lars> If you `M-g' a nnfolder+private group first, does that change
  Lars> anything?

No, doesn't change a thing "private" is not allowed as a selection for
a back end.

Shane

Re: Ghost e-mail groups

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Shane Holder <holder@rsn.hp.com> writes:

> No, doesn't change a thing "private" is not allowed as a selection for
> a back end.

What is your `gnus-server-alist'?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: Ghost e-mail groups

[Shane Holder]

>>>>> "Lars" == Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

  Lars> Shane Holder <holder@rsn.hp.com> writes:
  >> No, doesn't change a thing "private" is not allowed as a selection for
  >> a back end.

  Lars> What is your `gnus-server-alist'?

(("archive" nnfolder "archive" (nnfolder-directory
"~/Mail/archive") (nnfolder-active-file "~/Mail/archive/active")
(nnfolder-get-new-mail nil) (nnfolder-inhibit-expiry t)))

Shane

Re: Ghost e-mail groups

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Shane Holder <holder@rsn.hp.com> writes:

>   Lars> What is your `gnus-server-alist'?
> 
> (("archive" nnfolder "archive" (nnfolder-directory
> "~/Mail/archive") (nnfolder-active-file "~/Mail/archive/active")
> (nnfolder-get-new-mail nil) (nnfolder-inhibit-expiry t)))

Hm.  That's a bit odd.  Have you defined the backend in question in
the server buffer?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: Ghost e-mail groups

[Shane Holder]

>>>>> "Lars" == Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

  Lars> Shane Holder <holder@rsn.hp.com> writes:
  Lars> What is your `gnus-server-alist'?
  >> 
  >> (("archive" nnfolder "archive" (nnfolder-directory
  >> "~/Mail/archive") (nnfolder-active-file "~/Mail/archive/active")
  >> (nnfolder-get-new-mail nil) (nnfolder-inhibit-expiry t)))

  Lars> Hm.  That's a bit odd.  Have you defined the backend in
  Lars> question in the server buffer?

I haven't defined anything in the server buffer.

Shane

Re: Ghost e-mail groups

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Shane Holder <holder@rsn.hp.com> writes:

> I haven't defined anything in the server buffer.

Then how did you get the "private" nnfolder groups?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen