Orthogonality

Orthogonality

[Kai.Grossjohann]

I think the current marking commands are a bit of a mess.  Not all of
them move into the same direction after adding the mark, and some can
move in more ways than others.

I think we want all marking commands to exist in three variants:
  - Apply mark and don't move.
  - Apply mark and move to next.
  - Apply mark and move to previous.

Then, there's the issue of gnus-summary-goto-unread which modifies the
meaning of `next' and `previous'.

Suggestion: if `M x' is the command for applying the x mark, then `M
C-x' and `M M-x' move in different directions.

kai
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Re: Orthogonality

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE writes:

> Suggestion: if `M x' is the command for applying the x mark, then `M
> C-x' and `M M-x' move in different directions.

Well...  Hm.  Well, I don't think I'd find this useful, really.

-- 
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  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: Orthogonality

[Kai.Grossjohann]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

  > Well...  Hm.  Well, I don't think I'd find this useful, really.

Well, what with gnus-summary-goto-unread, you never really know where
point is going to end up after one of the forward-moving marking
commands, so offering nonmoving comands is a real win (IMHO) since you
can use `n' or `N' afterwards, depending on what you want.

Just earlier today, I wanted to mark several consecutive ticked
articles as expirable, and E would teleport me to the first unread
article always.  Had I thought of it, I would've M-u'd them, since
that one doesn't teleport, then I would have used E.

After a while, you get used to it, but I don't think this means that
it's a good thing the way things are, now.

Why don't we see what others think?

kai
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Re: Orthogonality

[Milan Zamazal]

>>>>> "KG" == Kai Grossjohann <Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE> writes:

    KG> Just earlier today, I wanted to mark several consecutive ticked
    KG> articles as expirable, and E would teleport me to the first
    KG> unread article always.
        ...
    KG> Why don't we see what others think?

I have the same problem when destroying some of ticked articles.

On the other hand I like moving when marking non-read articles as read.

When I'm thinking about it now, the best would be for me, if `d' `E'
etc. moved to the next unread just when pressed on an unread article.

Milan Zamazal

-- 
Having GNU Emacs is like having a dragon's cave of treasures."
                                                Robert J. Chassell

Re: Orthogonality

[Michael Welsh Duggan]

Milan Zamazal <pdm@pvt.net> writes:

> >>>>> "KG" == Kai Grossjohann <Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE> writes:
> 
>     KG> Just earlier today, I wanted to mark several consecutive ticked
>     KG> articles as expirable, and E would teleport me to the first
>     KG> unread article always.
>         ...
>     KG> Why don't we see what others think?
> 
> I have the same problem when destroying some of ticked articles.
> 
> On the other hand I like moving when marking non-read articles as read.
> 
> When I'm thinking about it now, the best would be for me, if `d' `E'
> etc. moved to the next unread just when pressed on an unread article.

Personally, I only want `n' and `p' to go to the next unread article.
All others I would prefer to either go to the next article or stay in
place.  (I especially do not want `d' to go to the next unread
article.)

-- 
Michael Duggan
(md5i@cs.cmu.edu)
.

Re: Orthogonality

[Alexandre Oliva]

On Jan 29, 1999, Michael Welsh Duggan <md5i@cs.cmu.edu> wrote:

> Milan Zamazal <pdm@pvt.net> writes:

>> When I'm thinking about it now, the best would be for me, if `d' `E'
>> etc. moved to the next unread just when pressed on an unread article.

> Personally, I only want `n' and `p' to go to the next unread article.
> All others I would prefer to either go to the next article or stay in
> place.  (I especially do not want `d' to go to the next unread
> article.)

I second (third? :-) that!  I frequently have to keep typing C-p
numerous times to get back to the place I was then I want to delete a
sequence of previously ticked messages.  Yep, there are ways around
it, but sometimes fingers are faster than the brain... :-)

-- 
Alexandre Oliva  http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~oliva  aoliva@{acm.org}
oliva@{dcc.unicamp.br,gnu.org,egcs.cygnus.com,samba.org}
Universidade Estadual de Campinas, SP, Brasil

Re: Orthogonality

[Milan Zamazal]

>>>>> "MWD" == Michael Welsh Duggan <md5i@cs.cmu.edu> writes:

    MWD> Milan Zamazal <pdm@pvt.net> writes:
    >> When I'm thinking about it now, the best would be for me, if `d'
    >> `E' etc. moved to the next unread just when pressed on an unread
    >> article.

    MWD> Personally, I only want `n' and `p' to go to the next unread
    MWD> article.  All others I would prefer to either go to the next
    MWD> article or stay in place.  (I especially do not want `d' to go
    MWD> to the next unread article.)

My gnusgroups look typically like

  ! thread [1]
   ! thread [2]
      thread (unread article) [3]
   ! thread [4]
    ! thread
        thread (unread article) [5]
  ! another thread [6]
   ! another thread [7]
  ! something ticked
  ! something ticked
    unread articles [8]
    ...

If I press `d' on [1], I want to go to [2], since I'm probably deleting
  old stuff just now.
If I press `d' on [3], I want to go to [5] (not [4]), since I'm
  probably reading not yet read articles just now.
If I press `d' on [5], I want to go to [8] for the same reason.
If I press `d' on [6], I want to go to [7].

Moving *anytime* to the next article is not the best thing for me.
But anyway, it's much better than moving *anytime* to the next _unread_
article.

Well, no big problems for me, if it would be an easy way to redefine `d'
to such a behavior, which there's not now AFAIK.

Milan Zamazal

-- 
Having GNU Emacs is like having a dragon's cave of treasures."
                                                Robert J. Chassell

Re: Orthogonality

[Michael Welsh Duggan]

Milan Zamazal <mz@pdm.pvt.net> writes:

> >>>>> "MWD" == Michael Welsh Duggan <md5i@cs.cmu.edu> writes:
> 
>     MWD> Milan Zamazal <pdm@pvt.net> writes:
>     >> When I'm thinking about it now, the best would be for me, if
>     >> `d' `E' etc. moved to the next unread just when pressed on an
>     >> unread article.
> 
>     MWD> Personally, I only want `n' and `p' to go to the next
>     MWD> unread article.  All others I would prefer to either go to
>     MWD> the next article or stay in place.  (I especially do not
>     MWD> want `d' to go to the next unread article.)
> 

[...]  Reason for moving to next unread on `d' elided.

You have some good reasons.  Here is my reasoning: I use adaptive
scorefiles, and use `d' to mark a message read, but not change the
score.  I score files with the `R' mark up, and ones with the `K' mark
down.  Sometimes I read a message, and then decide I don't want it to
be scored up.  Often it is a small range of messages (a thread).  So I
move to the top of the thread and type `d' for each article.

-- 
Michael Duggan
(md5i@cs.cmu.edu)
.

Re: Orthogonality

[Stephen Zander]

>>>>> "Michael" == Michael Welsh Duggan <md5i@cs.cmu.edu> writes:
    Michael> scored up.  Often it is a small range of messages (a
    Michael> thread).  So I move to the top of the thread and type `d'
    Michael> for each article.

T # M-& d

-- 
Stephen
---
It should be illegal to yell "Y2K" in a crowded economy.  :-) -- Larry Wall

Re: Orthogonality

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Michael Welsh Duggan <md5i@cs.cmu.edu> writes:

> (I especially do not want `d' to go to the next unread article.)

See `gnus-summary-goto-unread'.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: Orthogonality

[Wes Hardaker]

>>>>> On 29 Jan 1999 00:14:13 +0100, Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE said:

Kai> Just earlier today, I wanted to mark several consecutive ticked
Kai> articles as expirable, and E would teleport me to the first
Kai> unread article always.  Had I thought of it, I would've M-u'd
Kai> them, since that one doesn't teleport, then I would have used E.

Kai> After a while, you get used to it, but I don't think this means
Kai> that it's a good thing the way things are, now.

Kai> Why don't we see what others think?

If you need more fire power, I've re-written (wrapped actually) many
of the marking commands because the movement underneath them sucked
(IMHO, of course).  'E' was one of them.  I have it moving to the next 
line, not to the next unread...

-- 
"Ninjas aren't dangerous.  They're more afraid of you than you are of them."

Re: Orthogonality

[David S. Goldberg]

>>>>> On 29 Jan 1999 00:14:13 +0100, Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE said:
Kai> Just earlier today, I wanted to mark several consecutive ticked
Kai> articles as expirable, and E would teleport me to the first
Kai> unread article always.  Had I thought of it, I would've M-u'd
Kai> them, since that one doesn't teleport, then I would have used E.

Kai> After a while, you get used to it, but I don't think this means
Kai> that it's a good thing the way things are, now.

Kai> Why don't we see what others think?

> If you need more fire power, I've re-written (wrapped actually) many
> of the marking commands because the movement underneath them sucked
> (IMHO, of course).  'E' was one of them.  I have it moving to the
> next line, not to the next unread...

I've missed most of this thread so I apologize if it's been mentioned, 
but I set gnus-summary-goto-unread to 'never and I think I'm getting
the same behavior you're using a wrapper for.

`gnus-summary-goto-unread' is a variable declared in Lisp.

Value: never

Documentation:
*If t, marking commands will go to the next unread article.
If `never', commands that usually go to the next unread article, will
go to the next article, whether it is read or not.
If nil, only the marking commands will go to the next (un)read article.

-- 
Dave Goldberg
Post: The Mitre Corporation\MS B305\202 Burlington Rd.\Bedford, MA 01730
Phone: 781-271-3887
Email: dsg@mitre.org

Re: Orthogonality

[Kai.Grossjohann]

dsg@mitre.org (David S. Goldberg) writes:

  > I've missed most of this thread so I apologize if it's been mentioned, 
  > but I set gnus-summary-goto-unread to 'never and I think I'm getting
  > the same behavior you're using a wrapper for.

Hm.  I'm pretty sure there was a reason why I didn't set
gnus-summary-goto-unread to nil.  Hm.  Yes.  I set
gnus-summary-goto-unread to t for newsgroup-style groups and to nil
for mailbox-style groups.  Hm.

More later.

kai
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Re: Orthogonality

[Kai.Grossjohann]

dsg@mitre.org (David S. Goldberg) writes:

  > I've missed most of this thread so I apologize if it's been mentioned, 
  > but I set gnus-summary-goto-unread to 'never and I think I'm getting
  > the same behavior you're using a wrapper for.

I did that and it turns out that I can't go to the next unread message
anymore.  What I really want is to be able to _choose_.

kai
-- 
I like _\bb_\bo_\bt_\bh kinds of music.

Re: Orthogonality

[David S. Goldberg]

Have you tried "," (gnus-summary-best-unread-article)?  It works for
me, but then I sort by score and tend not to jump around within a
summary.  I'm not sure it would dtrt in other circumstances (in fact
I'm almost positive it wouldn't :-) I typically use it to jump to the
beginning of a thread and then use 'n' and 'p' to move around within
the thread.
-- 
Dave Goldberg
Post: The Mitre Corporation\MS B305\202 Burlington Rd.\Bedford, MA 01730
Phone: 781-271-3887
Email: dsg@mitre.org

Re: Orthogonality

[Kai.Grossjohann]

dsg@mitre.org (David S. Goldberg) writes:

  > Have you tried "," (gnus-summary-best-unread-article)?

I also use that (or "." which is much the same for me).  Sometimes,
however, I unmark a message for dealing with it later, yet wish to
read the rest of the group normally.

Most of the time, Gnus does the right thing, but sometimes, the other
commands are very useful.

kai
-- 
I like _\bb_\bo_\bt_\bh kinds of music.

Re: Orthogonality

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE writes:

> Most of the time, Gnus does the right thing, but sometimes, the other
> commands are very useful.

Well, I think this would be useful, so I'll accept patches for this. 

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen