From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.emacs.gnus.general/79502 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.gnus.general Subject: Re: Gnus Questions #1: Article Expiry Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 18:32:29 +0200 Organization: Programmerer Ingebrigtsen Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1311093181 5784 80.91.229.12 (19 Jul 2011 16:33:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 16:33:01 +0000 (UTC) To: ding@gnus.org Original-X-From: ding-owner+M27798@lists.math.uh.edu Tue Jul 19 18:32:57 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: ding-account@gmane.org Original-Received: from util0.math.uh.edu ([129.7.128.18]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QjDE8-0006qA-QW for ding-account@gmane.org; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 18:32:57 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.math.uh.edu) by util0.math.uh.edu with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1QjDE2-0007O1-DO; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 11:32:50 -0500 Original-Received: from mx2.math.uh.edu ([129.7.128.33]) by util0.math.uh.edu with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1QjDE0-0007Nl-Td for ding@lists.math.uh.edu; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 11:32:48 -0500 Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.231.51]) by mx2.math.uh.edu with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1QjDDw-0006XX-Da for ding@lists.math.uh.edu; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 11:32:48 -0500 Original-Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QjDDv-00052D-1u for ding@gnus.org; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 18:32:43 +0200 Original-Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QjDDu-0006f3-ER for ding@gnus.org; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 18:32:42 +0200 Original-Received: from cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no ([84.215.51.58]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 18:32:41 +0200 Original-Received: from larsi by cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 18:32:41 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: ding@gnus.org Original-Lines: 117 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAAD1BMVEWWZkgJAwZXMSovDxND IR+MARxHAAACR0lEQVQ4jWXUi3HsIAwFUIV1ASvjAkBQgEEuwEb0X9O74P0k85jJTDYnSEKIJSks Yrl31aOJBLqXUmaWliL/XU+lhb3UdP0PD96kxUuNuSGES6yqHyhXI9MB5FS7FQCiN+EolPsxMrvj 6H3AHTMJuWwTer8hlxucy20dsVB5v55GHQcpAHEiOqB3mSDBXcV+Qe6SCwBRJcUb6oDHgHVCPix1 cV1mvY+GUBOwuyTfs9ZZ1vKCA7+LzvOK7RkU3AzFkDChOleXnRLaMoG3Cf5wKBD52wg9gUOIibnG jZw73Unyhq2lxFvidREREtd6WROxbzkn49N4n0BzB+BJSzLzdPkzN1d3FPwGMrNniOxSkPME4BwA tNSSrZSYcsinuDcgOaDSY8sLSQvo/528hTNFqyFu4kJu9IHRN4BcK/qcUVXI9gEFlArAwDm3fMH3 ZiwFh0ZNknXAPvrurV04ukwIYn/A8+YoIPk5upvoHFAwMSgb96tCbdxHHoDedGZlNnlwDcjE2NFx p8VjcruiCdH7E5lGqKObFowxt847Yd/p8DQAGA4xPfAYEtcfr4YbfPAaMT1VUsEOzGNgRdsI/RyA eVmyjQH2zptlxdDw+kMIVMxw5403RNLMQSf00vHOjCtxLd5rL7svA+bzQLm785FHfeWJf3wD21Nc jZ7HOdefX3AxJuHy8xEdgO0LAQ/7Xt61+AGki58vgXyW9Qt8xxkLudbHF0YQHY9//LzA2F5/P95f MzfMZ/NZXa2wf+3AubDDH8Vz1Q2f9B/sCoS0y8jVBQAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== Mail-Copies-To: never X-Now-Playing: Coil's _Astral Disaster_: "MU-UR" User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:301gvhkno6zHLYoGn6BkbgFsddc= X-Spam-Score: -6.1 (------) List-ID: Precedence: bulk Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.gnus.general:79502 Archived-At: Dave Abrahams writes: >>> * [[info:gnus#Expiring Mail]] and [[info:gnus#Group Parameters]] both >>> mention articles being `put through the expiry process,' but that >>> process is never spelled out. What exactly is involved? >> >> It's what's described on the "Expiring Mail" node? > > Sorry to be a pain, but that doesn't look like a description of a > process to me. It looks like a description of a bunch of settings and > the effects they have, but there's nothing like "first this happens, > then we do that, ..." Well, it explains about expirable messages, and then it explains all the variables that affect the process... >>> * What's the difference between `gnus-summary-expire-articles' and >>> `gnus-summary-expire-articles-now'? The documentation doesn't make >>> that clear. >> >> The latter says: >> >> "This means that *all* articles that are marked as expirable will be >> deleted forever, right now." > > Of course I've read that line over and over and it isn't getting > clearer. As I wrote to Lee, > > ,---- > | Yeah, I read all those words, but they didn't add up to any obvious > | distinction for me. The phrases "have been around for a while" and > | "eligible for expiry" are vague at best. By contrast the use of > | "delete" and "disappear" seem implausibly concrete for a system whose > | expiration behavior can range from "do nothing" (which is undocumented, > | but that's what you get from nnimap if the expiry target is nil) to > | "forward the article to my mother-in-law" (if I write the function to do > | that). I would rather say that the articles are "sent to the group's > | expiry target" (a phrase I'd suitably define in Expiring Mail::). > `---- "sent to the group's expiry target" is more correct, yes. If you've changed the expiry defaults. The normal "target" is "delete". >>> * "Total Expire" and "Auto Expire" >>> >>> * The main point of using "Total Expire" instead of "Auto Expire" >>> seems to be that with "total expire" you can keep a distinction >>> between expirable (`E') and other marks that indicate an article was >>> read... until expiry actually runs. At that point, if you're using >>> total expire they're all treated the same. With "auto expire," on >>> the other hand, you know that only articles marked `E' will be >>> put through the expiry process. >> >> Well, sort of. With total expire, you expire all old articles. > > Do you really mean "old?" The doc seems to say you expire all articles > with a read mark. All old, read (sort of) articles. >>> * From [[info:gnus#Adaptive Scoring]] I think I conclude that adaptive >>> scoring takes effect at expiry time, and "auto-expire" changes all >>> read marks to `E' too early for adaptive scoring to do its work. Is >>> that right? >> >> No. If you set the "E" mark on all articles (whether automatically or >> manually), Adaptive Scoring won't be able to tell whether you're read an >> article or not, so it can't do its thing. > > I think you mean "Yes" above. Otherwise, it's not consistent with the > next sentence, which seems to confirm that my understanding was spot-on > :-). Am I missing something? No means no, mister!!! :-) Adaptive scoring does not take effect at expiry time. But the reason is what you say, otherwise. >>> * Aren't there a bajillion other ways to do the following, including >>> by customizing the "auto-expire" group parameter? Why would I do it >>> as below (see [[info:gnus#Expiring Mail]]) instead? >>> >>> ,---- >>> | To avoid having articles marked as read marked as >>> | expirable automatically, you can put something like the following in >>> | your `~/.gnus.el' file: >>> | >>> | (remove-hook 'gnus-mark-article-hook >>> | 'gnus-summary-mark-read-and-unread-as-read) >>> | (add-hook 'gnus-mark-article-hook 'gnus-summary-mark-unread-as-read) >>> | >>> `---- >> >> Yes, that seems rather excessive. > > Any objections if I remove that passage in my patch? No, go ahead. >>> * Suggestion: Rename `gnus-auto-expirable-newsgroups' >>> `gnus-auto-expirable-groups' since, generally, auto-expire only >>> applies to mail and not to nntp. >> >> Gnus has historically used "newsgroups" and "groups" as synonyms, and I >> think that boat has sailed a long time ago. > > Yeah, but Emacs supports aliases. Is there any reason not to make > things clearer for future generations? It's too much churn for too little benefit. At some point the aliases will have to go away, and people will have broken setups. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/