From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.emacs.gnus.general/35643 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.gnus.general Subject: Re: Quimby Upgrade Date: 05 Apr 2001 03:06:40 +0200 Organization: Programmerer Ingebrigtsen Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: coloc-standby.netfonds.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: main.gmane.org 1035171354 4211 80.91.224.250 (21 Oct 2002 03:35:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@main.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 03:35:54 +0000 (UTC) Return-Path: Original-Received: (qmail 11202 invoked by alias); 5 Apr 2001 01:10:15 -0000 Original-Received: (qmail 11197 invoked from network); 5 Apr 2001 01:10:15 -0000 Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org (195.204.10.139) by gnus.org with SMTP; 5 Apr 2001 01:10:15 -0000 Original-Received: (from news@localhost) by quimby.gnus.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA11893 for ding@gnus.org; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 03:10:13 +0200 (CEST) Original-To: ding@gnus.org Original-Path: not-for-mail Original-Newsgroups: gnus.ding Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: quimbies.gnus.org Original-X-Trace: quimby.gnus.org 986346613 20674 195.204.10.148 (4 Apr 2001 01:10:13 GMT) Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@quimby.gnus.org Original-NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Apr 2001 01:10:13 GMT Mail-Copies-To: never X-Now-Playing: The Notwist's _Shrink_: "Your Signs" User-Agent: Gnus/5.090001 (Oort Gnus v0.01) Emacs/20.6 X-Face: &w!^oO~dS|}-P0~ge{$c!h\ writes: > > I'm going to upgrade Quimby to something faster, more stable and less > > BSD-ey in the not-too-distant future. I. e., Debian on a 2xPII > > instead of OpenBSD on a P. > > You should stop smoking that stuff, really. OK, OpenBSD does not do SMP, > which is bad. OTOH, is quimby really being hit that hard? No, the 2xPII is just the machine we have available at the moment. It's old and weary. But, yes, Quimby often has a load of 1-4 for periods of time. Nothing too dramatic, though, but it will be nice to be able to run more taxing stuff on Quimby... > > Have I ever mentioned how un-impressed I am with OpenBSD? No? > > No. And I think you shouldn't. It's not meant to impress. If you want to > be impressed, get Linux. I am regularly impressed by the amount of > stupidity displayed by $LINTENDO_VENDOR. Especially compared to, say, > FreeBSD ports. What I'm impressed by is something that works. OpenBSD doesn't work. Out of all the unixoid machines we have (which aren't too many; just 60-70), the OpenBSD machines are, by far, the most unstable. They, like, die. Quimby has died five or six times during its (what?) two year existence. That's five or six times too many. What this mailing list needs is a good old-fashioned OS flame war, so let me start it off by mentioning some of the stuff that makes OpenBSD a pain. When I first installed it on the first machine, I was really impressed. It installed without a hitch, ports was nice -- stuff worked. Then I did a "cvs up" in the ports directory, and hell broke loose. There's lots of dependencies between ports and the rest of OpenBSD, so if you want to use new versions of, say, Emacs from ports, you have to upgrade your make, which requires that you upgrade your cc, which requires that you upgrade your libraries, which... (Not to mention that much of the stuff in ports plain don't compile. And is crappy and older than Methusaleh.) OpenBSD is even more crappy than Red Hat in that department, as difficult as that is to believe. Once you start upgrading, there's no end. And just like Red Hat, it's filled with non-explicit dependencies. I installed my first Debian half a year ago, and I was expecting something similar. I've been very impressed by Debian. So far, there has not been one single problem of this nature. The Debian maintainers show great taste and restraint. I've never experienced any other system that needs so little work to maintain. Ever. It just... works. That's impressive. > No. But it's your life. While you're waiting for all the goodies to > download (KDE integration into quimby would *really* rock), may I humbly > suggest some additions along the lines of > or > and > ? Well -- since you're doing those kinds of things, I don't need to. :-) Should probably be linked from gnus.org more prominently, though... > I mean, it's all nice and dandy to have the best NR/MUA in the world, > but in order for the Windos lusers to switch, gnus.org should scream > "it's hard, but it pays". Also, having dozens of half-baked tutorials, > readmes, and screenshots scattered all over the place is, errr, > stupid. Make quimby or gnus.org the central pickup point for all that > stuff, and make it more attractive for people to submit things. Like, > people love to flaunt their stuff, and having a truckload of screenshots > with different WMs, OSes and all that is Good(tm). I'd rather something like that be hosted somewhere else for the time being -- I may be re-organizing the networking so that Quimby gets its own security zone. (It's now in the company DMZ, which means that a break-in there shouldn't be serious, but there's other machines there, and trolling through all the logs on the rest of the DMZ machines (in case of a break-in on Quimby) sounds like work.) -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen