Emacs markup language

Emacs markup language

[Per Abrahamsen]

The problem of *not* using w3 for saints is that one have to invent
another markup language, and who want yet another markup language?

But Emacs (and GNU) already has its own simple markup language, namely
Texinfo (it also has info, but info sucks as a markup language, so
let's forget that).  So maybe the way to go would be to create a
texi-browser extended with embedded Emacs Lisp and saint-specific
tags.  We might even start with the "embedded Emacs Lisp and
saint-specific tags", but in a "may eventually grow into a
texi-browser" forward thinking way.

Re: Emacs markup language

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes:

> But Emacs (and GNU) already has its own simple markup language, namely
> Texinfo (it also has info, but info sucks as a markup language, so
> let's forget that). 

That's an idea...  let's see

@title Configuring Gnus for reading news
@node Server name and port
@variable server :string (gnus-getenv-nntpserver)
@variable port :number 119
@validate
(let ((stream
        (condition-case err
           (open-network-stream "nntpd" nil server port)
          (error (setq error err)))))
   (if (memq (process-status stream) '(open run))
       (progn
         (delete-process stream)
         t)
     nil)))
@end validate
@result gnus-select-method (list server port)
@text
To read Usenet news with Gnus, you first have to tell
Gnus where the news server is.

The server name is @variable{server}; port number @variable{port}.
@end text


That was kinda pleasant to write, actually, and it's readable (and
therefore maintainable). 

And when there's a branch (when setting up mail, between pop and
file, say), we could have

@next Pop
@next Local file access

with different nodes called that, of course.

And each assistant would be in its own file, so that'd be the "name
space" that we're talking about.  .ass probably isn't the best suffix
to use, though.  .ast?  .fry?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: Emacs markup language

[Jonas Steverud]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes:
>
>> But Emacs (and GNU) already has its own simple markup language, namely
>> Texinfo (it also has info, but info sucks as a markup language, so
>> let's forget that). 
>
> That's an idea...

How about XML?

You get something (the best?) from both worlds, you get to define
your own parts and still use a standard mark-up language...

-- 
(        http://hem.bredband.net/steverud/        !     Wei Wu Wei     )
(        Meaning of U2 Lyrics, Roleplaying        !  To Do Without Do  )

Re: Emacs markup language

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Jonas Steverud <tvrud@bredband.net> writes:

> How about XML?

XML is ugly.

<node>Setting up the news server</node>

is more unpleasant than

@node Setting up the news server

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: Emacs markup language

[Timothy Brown]

On Tue, May 18, 2004 at 05:16:29PM +0200, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen wrote:

> XML is ugly.
> 
> <node>Setting up the news server</node>
> 
> is more unpleasant than
> 
> @node Setting up the news server

I know i'm walking dangerous ground here, but this is a matter of
opinion.  XML is easier to parse and has the benefit of flexibility
and pre-existing tools in order to transfer it to other formats...
Not that Texinfo doesn't.

Tim

Re: Emacs markup language

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Timothy Brown <tim@tux.org> writes:

> I know i'm walking dangerous ground here, but this is a matter of
> opinion.  XML is easier to parse and has the benefit of flexibility
> and pre-existing tools in order to transfer it to other formats...
> Not that Texinfo doesn't.

XML is easy to parse, but what's important here is what's easy to
write.  Parsing is done by computers.  They deserve the pain.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Group renaming doesn't rename score files

[Max Froumentin]

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That's basically it: G-r renames the group fine but doesn't rename the
score files that apply to the group. Also, it would be great if
nnmail-split-methods was updated too, actually.

Max.


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Re: Emacs markup language

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Tue, 18 May 2004, larsi@gnus.org wrote:

> Timothy Brown <tim@tux.org> writes:
> 
>> I know i'm walking dangerous ground here, but this is a matter of
>> opinion.  XML is easier to parse and has the benefit of flexibility
>> and pre-existing tools in order to transfer it to other formats...
>> Not that Texinfo doesn't.
> 
> XML is easy to parse, but what's important here is what's easy to
> write.  Parsing is done by computers.  They deserve the pain.

Emacs support for XML is not as good as Texinfo support, in my
experience (I've done both).  In addition, XML, just like SGML and
HTML, is hard to debug when something goes wrong.  I vote against
XML.

Ted

Re: Emacs markup language

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

"Ted Zlatanov" <tzz@lifelogs.com> writes:

> Emacs support for XML is not as good as Texinfo support, in my
> experience (I've done both).

What does the Emacs TeXinfo parser do?  I mean, how easy would it be
to extend it to parse the assistants?  

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: Emacs markup language

[Norman Walsh]

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/ Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> was heard to say:
| Jonas Steverud <tvrud@bredband.net> writes:
|
|> How about XML?
|
| XML is ugly.
|
| <node>Setting up the news server</node>
|
| is more unpleasant than
|
| @node Setting up the news server

Unpleasant for whom? I have a whole library of tools that'll let me do
useful things with XML.

I vote for XML, but you could have guessed that :-)

                                        Be seeing you,
                                          norm

-- 
Norman Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com> | We measure the excellency of other men,
http://nwalsh.com/            | by some excellency we conceive to be in
                              | ourselves.--John Selden

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Re: Emacs markup language

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Tue, 18 May 2004, larsi@gnus.org wrote:

> "Ted Zlatanov" <tzz@lifelogs.com> writes:
> 
>> Emacs support for XML is not as good as Texinfo support, in my
>> experience (I've done both).
> 
> What does the Emacs TeXinfo parser do?  I mean, how easy would it be
> to extend it to parse the assistants?  

Looking at texinfo.el, it's not too complex, but I would check with
emacs-devel and see if anybody is interested in helping with the
mode.  I'm sure this sort of interactive assistant will be of
interest to many Emacs developers.

Ted

Re: Emacs markup language

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

"Ted Zlatanov" <tzz@lifelogs.com> writes:

> Looking at texinfo.el, it's not too complex, but I would check with
> emacs-devel and see if anybody is interested in helping with the
> mode.  I'm sure this sort of interactive assistant will be of
> interest to many Emacs developers.

I'll give them a heads up.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: Emacs markup language

[Manoj Srivastava]

On Tue, 18 May 2004 15:07:18 -0400, Norman Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com> said: 

> Unpleasant for whom? I have a whole library of tools that'll let me
> do useful things with XML.

	Could you share the names of the tools you use to author XML?
 I use psgml, but it has been in semi-stasis for years now, and has
 no support for schemas.  I do like the context sensitive tag and
 attribute insertion for arbitrary DTD's in psgml.

	manoj
-- 
A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.  --
Butler
Manoj Srivastava   <srivasta@acm.org>  <http://www.datasync.com/%7Esrivasta/>
1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
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Re: Emacs markup language

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Wed, 19 May 2004, srivasta@acm.org wrote:

> On Tue, 18 May 2004 15:07:18 -0400, Norman Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com> said:
> 
>> Unpleasant for whom? I have a whole library of tools that'll let me
>> do useful things with XML.
> 
> 	Could you share the names of the tools you use to author XML?
>  I use psgml, but it has been in semi-stasis for years now, and has
>  no support for schemas.  I do like the context sensitive tag and
>  attribute insertion for arbitrary DTD's in psgml.

(OT, sorry!)

I have used XAE and it was OK for XML work, when you have to do it in
Emacs.

Ted

Re: Emacs markup language

[Steinar Bang]

>>>>> "Ted Zlatanov" <tzz@lifelogs.com>:

> On Wed, 19 May 2004, srivasta@acm.org wrote:
>> On Tue, 18 May 2004 15:07:18 -0400, Norman Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com> said:

>>> Unpleasant for whom? I have a whole library of tools that'll let me
>>> do useful things with XML.

>> Could you share the names of the tools you use to author XML?  I
>> use psgml, but it has been in semi-stasis for years now, and has no
>> support for schemas.  I do like the context sensitive tag and
>> attribute insertion for arbitrary DTD's in psgml.

> (OT, sorry!)
(more OT coming up)

> I have used XAE and it was OK for XML work, when you have to do it
> in Emacs.

The editing functionality of XAE is psgml.  I find it quite powerful
(at least when it has a DTD for the format being edited).

There's a new, maintained, XML mode under development:
	http://groups.yahoo.com/group/emacs-nxml-mode/
	http://www.xmlhack.com/read.php?item=2061

Re: Group renaming doesn't rename score files

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Max Froumentin <max@lapin-bleu.net> writes:

> That's basically it: G-r renames the group fine but doesn't rename the
> score files that apply to the group. Also, it would be great if
> nnmail-split-methods was updated too, actually.

It doesn't rename the cache or Agent stuff, either.

Getting group renames to rename everything related to the group is a
major piece of work.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: Group renaming doesn't rename score files

[Kevin Greiner]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> Max Froumentin <max@lapin-bleu.net> writes:
>
>> That's basically it: G-r renames the group fine but doesn't rename the
>> score files that apply to the group. Also, it would be great if
>> nnmail-split-methods was updated too, actually.
>
> It doesn't rename the cache or Agent stuff, either.
>
> Getting group renames to rename everything related to the group is a
> major piece of work.

Actually, it wasn't that hard.  I added it a few weeks ago when I
added article moving to both the agent and cache.  Fairly nice except
that I forgot about the score files.  Hmmm... I wonder what else I
forgot :).

Rather busy this week, I'll try to get to it next week.

Kevin

Re: Group renaming doesn't rename score files

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Kevin Greiner <kgreiner@xpediantsolutions.com> writes:

> Actually, it wasn't that hard.  I added it a few weeks ago when I
> added article moving to both the agent and cache.

Oh, cool.  :-)

> Fairly nice except that I forgot about the score files.  Hmmm... I
> wonder what else I forgot :).
>
> Rather busy this week, I'll try to get to it next week.

Great.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: Emacs markup language

[Kai Grossjohann]

Manoj Srivastava <srivasta@acm.org> writes:

> 	Could you share the names of the tools you use to author XML?

I hear that nXML by James Clark is very good; I haven't had time yet
to try it.

It works with RelaxNG instead of XML Schema -- not sure whether
that's an advantage of a disadvantage...

Kai

Re: Emacs markup language

[Alex Ott]

>>>>> "KG" == Kai Grossjohann writes:
 KG> Manoj Srivastava <srivasta@acm.org> writes:
 >> Could you share the names of the tools you use to author XML?

 KG> I hear that nXML by James Clark is very good; I haven't had time yet
 KG> to try it.

It's really good - it not so heavy as psgml and works fine. i heavily use
it in my works, mostly for documentation in DocBook XML


-- 
With best wishes, Alex Ott
Jet Infosystems,       http://www.jetinfosoft.ru/
                       +7 (095) 411 76 01

Re: Emacs markup language

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Thu, 20 May 2004, kai@emptydomain.de wrote:

> Manoj Srivastava <srivasta@acm.org> writes:
> 
>> 	Could you share the names of the tools you use to author XML?
> 
> I hear that nXML by James Clark is very good; I haven't had time yet
> to try it.
> 
> It works with RelaxNG instead of XML Schema -- not sure whether
> that's an advantage of a disadvantage...

I don't think RelaxNG is a problem, since you can convert to DTD and
back easily.

For me nXML crashed Emacs after C-h m.  I'm running the CVS version of
Emacs so that may be the reason, I'll follow up in the appropriate
lists.

Thanks
Ted

Re: Emacs markup language

[Norman Walsh]

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/ Manoj Srivastava <srivasta@acm.org> was heard to say:
| On Tue, 18 May 2004 15:07:18 -0400, Norman Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com> said: 
|
|> Unpleasant for whom? I have a whole library of tools that'll let me
|> do useful things with XML.
|
| 	Could you share the names of the tools you use to author XML?
|  I use psgml, but it has been in semi-stasis for years now, and has
|  no support for schemas.  I do like the context sensitive tag and
|  attribute insertion for arbitrary DTD's in psgml.

Mostly I use rnc-mode now and RELAX NG. http://www.relaxng.org/

                                        Be seeing you,
                                          norm

-- 
Norman Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com> | Wisdom is only a comparative quality,
http://nwalsh.com/            | it will not bear a single
                              | definition.--Marquess of Halifax

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Re: Emacs markup language

[Norman Walsh]

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/ Kai Grossjohann <kai@emptydomain.de> was heard to say:
| Manoj Srivastava <srivasta@acm.org> writes:
|
|> 	Could you share the names of the tools you use to author XML?
|
| I hear that nXML by James Clark is very good; I haven't had time yet
| to try it.

Right. That's what I meant when I said rnc-mode. Oops.

                                        Be seeing you,
                                          norm

-- 
Norman Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com> | The stone fell on the pitcher? Woe to
http://nwalsh.com/            | the pitcher. The pitcher fell on the
                              | stone? Woe to the pitcher.--Rabbinic
                              | Saying

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