IMAP + Agent

IMAP + Agent

[Richard Riley]

I've posted numerous time about using Gnus with imap and agent using
multiple email accounts at the same provider. It doesnt work. Each time
the replies were vague, requently at odds with each other of the form
"should work" or "IMAP doesn work with the agent". What is the real
state of play these days? e.g

,----
|    (add-to-list 'gnus-secondary-select-methods
|                 '(nnimap "riley"
|                          (nnir-search-engine imap)
|                          (nnimap-address "imap.gmail.com")
|                          ))
|    (add-to-list 'gnus-secondary-select-methods
|                 '(nnimap "shamrockpub"
|                          (nnir-search-engine imap)
|                          (nnimap-address "imap.gmail.com")
|                          ))
|    
|    (add-to-list 'gnus-secondary-select-methods
|                 '(nnimap "friends"
|                          (nnir-search-engine imap)
|                          (nnimap-address "imap.gmail.com")
|                          ))
`----

where my authinfo.gpg contains server specific authentication
credentials based on the "logical" server name above (riley,shamrockpub
and friends).

When the agent is enabled for these servers then all 3 show the same
message counts.

So, I should give up or it will maybe one day work as it should work now?

Re: IMAP + Agent

[John Wiegley]

>>>>> Richard Riley <rileyrg@googlemail.com> writes:

> I've posted numerous time about using Gnus with imap and agent using
> multiple email accounts at the same provider. It doesnt work. Each time the
> replies were vague, requently at odds with each other of the form "should
> work" or "IMAP doesn work with the agent". What is the real state of play
> these days? e.g

I was never able to get nnimap to play well enough with the Agent for me to
trust it.  I kept ending up with marks and unread counts going wonky, messages
not getting downloaded although I'd used J s and set my default agent category
predicate to `true', etc.

Recently I've approached e-mail Nirvana by using offlineimap with Dovecot
(using the full-text search backend with nnir) to essentially offload the
concept of "offlineness" from Gnus entirely.  Now my e-mail server is always
available, Internet or no.  In fact, I found this to be so much nicer in so
many ways that I've switched to using Leafnode for NNTP as well (and nnmairix
for doing article searches).  Now Gnus thinks the servers are always alive,
and there's no more puzzling.

If you're interested I could share configuration details with you, but there
is a definite learning curve to this approach.  On the other hand, once it's
all setup it's pretty bulletproof, with the added benefit that it conveys
"offlineness" to every other Mail and News reader you have.

John

Re: IMAP + Agent

[Richard Riley]

John Wiegley <jwiegley@gmail.com> writes:

>>>>>> Richard Riley <rileyrg@googlemail.com> writes:
>
>> I've posted numerous time about using Gnus with imap and agent using
>> multiple email accounts at the same provider. It doesnt work. Each time the
>> replies were vague, requently at odds with each other of the form "should
>> work" or "IMAP doesn work with the agent". What is the real state of play
>> these days? e.g
>
> I was never able to get nnimap to play well enough with the Agent for me to
> trust it.  I kept ending up with marks and unread counts going wonky, messages
> not getting downloaded although I'd used J s and set my default agent category
> predicate to `true', etc.
>
> Recently I've approached e-mail Nirvana by using offlineimap with Dovecot
> (using the full-text search backend with nnir) to essentially offload the
> concept of "offlineness" from Gnus entirely.  Now my e-mail server is always
> available, Internet or no.  In fact, I found this to be so much nicer in so
> many ways that I've switched to using Leafnode for NNTP as well (and nnmairix
> for doing article searches).  Now Gnus thinks the servers are always alive,
> and there's no more puzzling.
>
> If you're interested I could share configuration details with you, but there
> is a definite learning curve to this approach.  On the other hand, once it's
> all setup it's pretty bulletproof, with the added benefit that it conveys
> "offlineness" to every other Mail and News reader you have.
>
> John

I used to have a offlineimap setup - it was tricky to get it working
with 3 diferent gmail accounts though but I got there. Unfortunately
every now and again it hiccupped. Since Gnus started being much more
efficient with Gnus I moved to a Gnus "native" IMAP connection but would
really like it to play properly with the agent. Agent and Splitting just
confue the hell out of me ;) Thanks for the offer of sharing but I still
have my old setup somewhere but I its not important enough for me to go
back to at this
time. (http://osdir.com/ml/help-gnu-emacs-gnu/2010-08/msg00224.html).

Re: IMAP + Agent

[Steinar Bang]

>>>>> Richard Riley <rileyrg@googlemail.com>:

> ... Since Gnus started being much more efficient with Gnus I moved to
> a Gnus "native" IMAP connection but would really like it to play
> properly with the agent.

So would I.

The old nnimap and the agent used to work, more or less.  I even had
cache-when-read working.

Re: IMAP + Agent

[Frank Schmitt]

Steinar Bang <sb@dod.no> writes:

>>>>>> Richard Riley <rileyrg@googlemail.com>:
>
>> ... Since Gnus started being much more efficient with Gnus I moved to
>> a Gnus "native" IMAP connection but would really like it to play
>> properly with the agent.
>
> So would I.
>
> The old nnimap and the agent used to work, more or less.  I even had
> cache-when-read working.

No way. In the days when I was more active in #gnus and the Gnus
Newsgroup, 50% of all IMAP related problems could be solved by disabling
the Agent.

-- 
Have you ever considered how much text can fit in eighty columns?  Given that a
signature typically contains up to four lines of text, this space allows you to
attach a tremendous amount of valuable information to your messages.  Seize the
opportunity and don't waste your signature on bullshit that nobody cares about.

Re: IMAP + Agent

[Tassilo Horn]

Frank Schmitt <ich@frank-schmitt.net> writes:

>>> ... Since Gnus started being much more efficient with Gnus I moved to
>>> a Gnus "native" IMAP connection but would really like it to play
>>> properly with the agent.
>>
>> So would I.
>>
>> The old nnimap and the agent used to work, more or less.  I even had
>> cache-when-read working.
>
> No way. In the days when I was more active in #gnus and the Gnus
> Newsgroup, 50% of all IMAP related problems could be solved by
> disabling the Agent.

Well, I think it used to work unless you moved, copied, or deleted
messages behind Gnus' back.

Bye,
Tassilo
-- 
Sent from my Emacs

Re: IMAP + Agent

[Steinar Bang]

>>>>> Tassilo Horn <tassilo@member.fsf.org>:

> Well, I think it used to work unless you moved, copied, or deleted
> messages behind Gnus' back.

Not sure what you mean with "behind Gnus' back", but when you mention
it, none of these operations (move, copy and delete) worked while
offline: or rather, didn't take effect when going back online (maybe
delete did...?  I can't remember).

But reading and responding worked while offline with the old
nnimap+agent.

Re: IMAP + Agent

[Tassilo Horn]

Steinar Bang <sb@dod.no> writes:

Hi Steinar,

>> Well, I think it used to work unless you moved, copied, or deleted
>> messages behind Gnus' back.
>
> Not sure what you mean with "behind Gnus' back", but when you mention
> it, none of these operations (move, copy and delete) worked while
> offline: or rather, didn't take effect when going back online (maybe
> delete did...?  I can't remember).

With "behind Gnus' back" I mean doing those operations with another mail
client, like the mail app on your phone or your provider's web
interface.

Bye,
Tassilo
-- 
Sent from my Emacs

Re: IMAP + Agent

[Steinar Bang]

>>>>> Frank Schmitt <ich@frank-schmitt.net>:

> Steinar Bang <sb@dod.no> writes:

>> The old nnimap and the agent used to work, more or less.  I even had
>> cache-when-read working.

> No way. In the days when I was more active in #gnus and the Gnus
> Newsgroup, 50% of all IMAP related problems could be solved by
> disabling the Agent.

"used to work for me", I meant to write.

I can't speak for others.

Re: IMAP + Agent

[Richard Riley]

Steinar Bang <sb@dod.no> writes:

>>>>>> Frank Schmitt <ich@frank-schmitt.net>:
>
>> Steinar Bang <sb@dod.no> writes:
>
>>> The old nnimap and the agent used to work, more or less.  I even had
>>> cache-when-read working.
>
>> No way. In the days when I was more active in #gnus and the Gnus
>> Newsgroup, 50% of all IMAP related problems could be solved by
>> disabling the Agent.
>
> "used to work for me", I meant to write.
>
> I can't speak for others.

Well, my OP had the result I intended. Its quite clear it doesnt work
for anyone after all ;) I was wondering if it was "just me"...

Re: IMAP + Agent

[Eric S Fraga]

Richard Riley <rileyrg@googlemail.com> writes:

> Steinar Bang <sb@dod.no> writes:
>
>>>>>>> Frank Schmitt <ich@frank-schmitt.net>:
>>
>>> Steinar Bang <sb@dod.no> writes:
>>
>>>> The old nnimap and the agent used to work, more or less.  I even had
>>>> cache-when-read working.
>>
>>> No way. In the days when I was more active in #gnus and the Gnus
>>> Newsgroup, 50% of all IMAP related problems could be solved by
>>> disabling the Agent.
>>
>> "used to work for me", I meant to write.
>>
>> I can't speak for others.
>
> Well, my OP had the result I intended. Its quite clear it doesnt work
> for anyone after all ;) I was wondering if it was "just me"...

Well, IMAP + Gnus agents work for me, with the following caveats:

1. I only have one account per imap server and

2. when I want to update the agent (J s), I quit gnus, restart it and
   then download.

The second point is critical, in my experience.  If I have done anything
with gnus (reading, expiring, whatever), then the agent gets confused.
I cannot reproduce the problems at will but ever since I started doing
the download *only* immediately after starting gnus, everything has
worked fine.  

I make use of the agent for offline work twice daily for my long train
commutes.  Couldn't function anywhere near as well without it.  I used
to use offlineimap but moved to gnus completely when it improved so
dramatically last year and because it looked like offlineimap was being
orphaned...

HTH,
eric

-- 
: Eric S Fraga (GnuPG: 0xC89193D8FFFCF67D) in Emacs 24.0.50.1 + No Gnus v0.18

Re: IMAP + Agent

[Richard Riley]

Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> writes:

> Richard Riley <rileyrg@googlemail.com> writes:
>
>> Steinar Bang <sb@dod.no> writes:
>>
>>>>>>>> Frank Schmitt <ich@frank-schmitt.net>:
>>>
>>>> Steinar Bang <sb@dod.no> writes:
>>>
>>>>> The old nnimap and the agent used to work, more or less.  I even had
>>>>> cache-when-read working.
>>>
>>>> No way. In the days when I was more active in #gnus and the Gnus
>>>> Newsgroup, 50% of all IMAP related problems could be solved by
>>>> disabling the Agent.
>>>
>>> "used to work for me", I meant to write.
>>>
>>> I can't speak for others.
>>
>> Well, my OP had the result I intended. Its quite clear it doesnt work
>> for anyone after all ;) I was wondering if it was "just me"...
>
> Well, IMAP + Gnus agents work for me, with the following caveats:
>
> 1. I only have one account per imap server and

Since the first time I posted I tried to make it clear it was multiple
accounts : sorry if I snipped the original context - it wasnt my
intention to say it "never works with only one account" - I dont know if
it does or doesnt at this stage.

cheers

r.

Re: IMAP + Agent

[Eric S Fraga]

Richard Riley <rileyrg@googlemail.com> writes:

> Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> writes:
>
>> Richard Riley <rileyrg@googlemail.com> writes:
>>
>>> Steinar Bang <sb@dod.no> writes:
>>>
>>>>>>>>> Frank Schmitt <ich@frank-schmitt.net>:
>>>>
>>>>> Steinar Bang <sb@dod.no> writes:
>>>>
>>>>>> The old nnimap and the agent used to work, more or less.  I even had
>>>>>> cache-when-read working.
>>>>
>>>>> No way. In the days when I was more active in #gnus and the Gnus
>>>>> Newsgroup, 50% of all IMAP related problems could be solved by
>>>>> disabling the Agent.
>>>>
>>>> "used to work for me", I meant to write.
>>>>
>>>> I can't speak for others.
>>>
>>> Well, my OP had the result I intended. Its quite clear it doesnt work
>>> for anyone after all ;) I was wondering if it was "just me"...
>>
>> Well, IMAP + Gnus agents work for me, with the following caveats:
>>
>> 1. I only have one account per imap server and
>
> Since the first time I posted I tried to make it clear it was multiple
> accounts : sorry if I snipped the original context - it wasnt my
> intention to say it "never works with only one account" - I dont know if
> it does or doesnt at this stage.
>
> cheers
>
> r.
>
>

Oops, the problem is my terseness.  Your problem was clear (to me at
least)!

I put that caveat on purpose to reflect your original problem but I
responded as I did because of all the other emails in this thread
indicating that there are problems with the Gnus agent even with one
IMAP account alone.  It works for my use case and did not mean to
indicate it would work for yours!  Sorry for the confusion.

-- 
: Eric S Fraga (GnuPG: 0xC89193D8FFFCF67D) in Emacs 24.0.50.1 + No Gnus v0.18

Re: IMAP + Agent

[Steinar Bang]

>>>>> Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk>:
> Well, IMAP + Gnus agents work for me, with the following caveats:

> 1. I only have one account per imap server and

> 2. when I want to update the agent (J s), I quit gnus, restart it and
>    then download.

> The second point is critical, in my experience.  If I have done
> anything with gnus (reading, expiring, whatever), then the agent gets
> confused.  I cannot reproduce the problems at will but ever since I
> started doing the download *only* immediately after starting gnus,
> everything has worked fine.

Well interesting... and might help the ones trying to debug this...

But as a workaround it (ie. your second point) feels to me, like being
too cumbersome, to use in practice.

Re: IMAP + Agent

[Eric S Fraga]

Steinar Bang <sb@dod.no> writes:

>>>>>> Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk>:
>> Well, IMAP + Gnus agents work for me, with the following caveats:
>
>
>> 1. I only have one account per imap server and
>
>> 2. when I want to update the agent (J s), I quit gnus, restart it and
>>    then download.
>
>> The second point is critical, in my experience.  If I have done
>> anything with gnus (reading, expiring, whatever), then the agent gets
>> confused.  I cannot reproduce the problems at will but ever since I
>> started doing the download *only* immediately after starting gnus,
>> everything has worked fine.
>
> Well interesting... and might help the ones trying to debug this...
>
> But as a workaround it (ie. your second point) feels to me, like being
> too cumbersome, to use in practice.

I guess that depends on how often you need to fetch messages for the
agent.  I do it twice a day: when I head off from home in the morning
and then again when I head for home.  Keystrokes are straightforward: 

"q y M-x gnus RET J s J j"

and then suspend my laptop...

However, it would obviously be best if I could simply do "J s J j"... :)

-- 
: Eric S Fraga (GnuPG: 0xC89193D8FFFCF67D) in Emacs 24.0.50.1 + No Gnus v0.18

Re: IMAP + Agent

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Wed, 24 Aug 2011 11:15:00 +0200 Frank Schmitt <ich@frank-schmitt.net> wrote: 

FS> Steinar Bang <sb@dod.no> writes:
>>>>>>> Richard Riley <rileyrg@googlemail.com>:
>> 
>>> ... Since Gnus started being much more efficient with Gnus I moved to
>>> a Gnus "native" IMAP connection but would really like it to play
>>> properly with the agent.
>> 
>> So would I.
>> 
>> The old nnimap and the agent used to work, more or less.  I even had
>> cache-when-read working.

FS> No way. In the days when I was more active in #gnus and the Gnus
FS> Newsgroup, 50% of all IMAP related problems could be solved by disabling
FS> the Agent.

Unfortunately that was the case for me too.  The last non-Lars
non-trivial commit to gnus-agent.el is from Reiner, who for a while did
tremendous work on the Agent and other parts of Gnus:

commit 45b6a0b12b2a982c66908683a23f60c8e8d8212f
Author: Reiner Steib <Reiner.Steib@gmx.de>
Date:   Wed Nov 28 20:32:49 2007 +0000

so perhaps it makes sense to ask Reiner if he can understand what's
broken and needs to be fixed in the agent, since Lars (IIRC) said he
needs to understand that code much better to work on it.

Ted

Re: IMAP + Agent

[Reiner Steib]

On Tue, Sep 27 2011, Ted Zlatanov wrote:

> The last non-Lars non-trivial commit to gnus-agent.el is from
> Reiner, who for a while did tremendous work on the Agent and other
> parts of Gnus:
>
> commit 45b6a0b12b2a982c66908683a23f60c8e8d8212f
> Author: Reiner Steib <Reiner.Steib@gmx.de>
> Date:   Wed Nov 28 20:32:49 2007 +0000

I am the committer of this code, but not the author. ;-) See the
ChangeLog entry:

,----[ ChangeLog ]
| 2007-11-28  Elias Oltmanns  <eo@nebensachen.de>
| 	[...]
| 	* gnus-agent.el (gnus-agent-toggle-plugged): Don't call
| 	gnus-agent-possibly-synchronize-flags as this should be called when the
| 	server is actually being opened.
| 	(gnus-agent-possibly-synchronize-flags)
| 	(gnus-agent-possibly-synchronize-flags-server): Move check for the
| 	flags file of an agentized server to the latter function.
`----

> so perhaps it makes sense to ask Reiner if he can understand what's
> broken and needs to be fixed in the agent, since Lars (IIRC) said he
> needs to understand that code much better to work on it.

Sorry, I can't help here since I always have the agent disabled.

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo---  |  PGP key available  |  http://rsteib.home.pages.de/

Re: IMAP + Agent

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 09:04:30 +0200 Reiner Steib <reinersteib+gmane@imap.cc> wrote: 

RS> On Tue, Sep 27 2011, Ted Zlatanov wrote:
>> The last non-Lars non-trivial commit to gnus-agent.el is from
>> Reiner, who for a while did tremendous work on the Agent and other
>> parts of Gnus:
>> 
>> commit 45b6a0b12b2a982c66908683a23f60c8e8d8212f
>> Author: Reiner Steib <Reiner.Steib@gmx.de>
>> Date:   Wed Nov 28 20:32:49 2007 +0000

RS> I am the committer of this code, but not the author. ;-) See the
RS> ChangeLog entry:

RS> ,----[ ChangeLog ]
RS> | 2007-11-28  Elias Oltmanns  <eo@nebensachen.de>
RS> | 	[...]
RS> | 	* gnus-agent.el (gnus-agent-toggle-plugged): Don't call
RS> | 	gnus-agent-possibly-synchronize-flags as this should be called when the
RS> | 	server is actually being opened.
RS> | 	(gnus-agent-possibly-synchronize-flags)
RS> | 	(gnus-agent-possibly-synchronize-flags-server): Move check for the
RS> | 	flags file of an agentized server to the latter function.
RS> `----

Oops, I only checked the VCS log.  Sorry.

>> so perhaps it makes sense to ask Reiner if he can understand what's
>> broken and needs to be fixed in the agent, since Lars (IIRC) said he
>> needs to understand that code much better to work on it.

RS> Sorry, I can't help here since I always have the agent disabled.

Hm, looks like Kevin Greiner <kevin.greiner@compsol.cc> and Katsumi
Yamaoka <yamaoka@jpl.org> are the most frequent committers besides
Lars.  Are either of them interested?

Ted

Re: IMAP + Agent

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com> writes:

> so perhaps it makes sense to ask Reiner if he can understand what's
> broken and needs to be fixed in the agent, since Lars (IIRC) said he
> needs to understand that code much better to work on it.

I do plan on getting down to business on the nnimap/Agent problem, but I
haven't found the stamina yet.  This autumn!  I mean it!

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/

Re: IMAP + Agent

[John Wiegley]

>>>>> Noorul Islam K M <noorul@noorul.com> writes:

> I have two laptops. One at home and another one at office. Do you still
> recommend this setup?

There are a couple ways you could manage it: independent IMAP repos on both
machines, or rsync'ing the data as long as you don't run the services in both
places at once.

John

Re: IMAP + Agent

[Vijay Lakshminarayanan]

Richard Riley <rileyrg@googlemail.com> writes:

> I've posted numerous time about using Gnus with imap and agent using
> multiple email accounts at the same provider. It doesnt work. Each time
> the replies were vague, requently at odds with each other of the form
> "should work" or "IMAP doesn work with the agent". What is the real
> state of play these days? e.g
>
> ,----
> |    (add-to-list 'gnus-secondary-select-methods
> |                 '(nnimap "riley"
> |                          (nnir-search-engine imap)
> |                          (nnimap-address "imap.gmail.com")
> |                          ))
> |    (add-to-list 'gnus-secondary-select-methods
> |                 '(nnimap "shamrockpub"
> |                          (nnir-search-engine imap)
> |                          (nnimap-address "imap.gmail.com")
> |                          ))
> |    
> |    (add-to-list 'gnus-secondary-select-methods
> |                 '(nnimap "friends"
> |                          (nnir-search-engine imap)
> |                          (nnimap-address "imap.gmail.com")
> |                          ))
> `----
>
> where my authinfo.gpg contains server specific authentication
> credentials based on the "logical" server name above (riley,shamrockpub
> and friends).
>
> When the agent is enabled for these servers then all 3 show the same
> message counts.
>
> So, I should give up or it will maybe one day work as it should work now?

I have multiple gmail accounts setup in pretty much the way you've
described above with the exception that mine actually works.  Below is
my setup, adjusted for actual account names, of course.

===== .gnus =====
(require 'nnir)

(setq gnus-select-method '(nnimap "laksvij"
                                  (nnimap-address "imap.gmail.com")
                                  (nnimap-server-port 993)
                                  (nnimap-stream ssl)
                                  (nnir-search-engine imap)))

;;; Configure secondary emails
(add-to-list 'gnus-secondary-select-methods
             '(nnimap "another"
                      (nnimap-address "imap.gmail.com")
                      (nnimap-server-port 993)
                      (nnimap-stream ssl)
                      (nnir-search-engine imap)))

(add-to-list 'gnus-secondary-select-methods
             '(nnimap "yetanother"
                      (nnimap-address "imap.gmail.com")
                      (nnimap-server-port 993)
                      (nnimap-stream ssl)
                      (nnir-search-engine imap)))

(add-to-list 'gnus-secondary-select-methods
             '(nnimap "stillanother"
                      (nnimap-address "imap.gmail.com")
                      (nnimap-server-port 993)
                      (nnimap-stream ssl)
                      (nnir-search-engine imap)))

===== .authinfo.gpg =====
machine laksvij login laksvij@gmail.com password haha port 993
machine another login another@gmail.com password yeahright port 993
machine yetanother login yetanother@gmail.com password dumbpassword port 993
machine stillanother login still.another@gmail.com password stealit port 993

I'm using (gnus-version) "Gnus v5.13"

Hope this helps.

-- 
Cheers
~vijay

Gnus should be more complicated.

Re: IMAP + Agent

[Richard Riley]

Vijay Lakshminarayanan <laksvij@gmail.com> writes:

> I have multiple gmail accounts setup in pretty much the way you've
> described above with the exception that mine actually works.  Below is
> my setup, adjusted for actual account names, of course.
>
> I'm using (gnus-version) "Gnus v5.13"
>
> Hope this helps.

Mine works too : but not with the Agent. Yours works with the Agent in
offline mode?

(My version currently in the git mirror version of Emas 24)

Re: IMAP + Agent

[Vijay Lakshminarayanan]

Richard Riley <rileyrg@googlemail.com> writes:

> Vijay Lakshminarayanan <laksvij@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> I have multiple gmail accounts setup in pretty much the way you've
>> described above with the exception that mine actually works.  Below is
>> my setup, adjusted for actual account names, of course.
>>
>> I'm using (gnus-version) "Gnus v5.13"
>>
>> Hope this helps.
>
> Mine works too : but not with the Agent. Yours works with the Agent in
> offline mode?
>
> (My version currently in the git mirror version of Emas 24)
>

Ah.  My mistake.  I'm rather new to Gnus and I have no idea what Agent
is.  I see it's part of Gnus being more complicated :-)

-- 
Cheers
~vijay

Gnus should be more complicated.