mail-{followup,copies}-to on this list

mail-{followup,copies}-to on this list

[NAGY Andras]

Some of you send followups to mails on this list to the poster, and a
cc to the list address, unless the sender has put a mail-copies-to:
never (or similar) header in the original message.  However, the
mail-copies-to draftq
(http://www.newsreaders.com/misc/mail-copies-to.html) says

  If the header is not present the agent SHOULD NOT set the message to
  be both posted and mailed.


Please correct me if I interpret this wrong, or stop sending me
personal followups.


Andras

Re: mail-{followup,copies}-to on this list

[ShengHuo ZHU]

NAGY Andras <nagya@inf.elte.hu> writes:

> Some of you send followups to mails on this list to the poster, and a
> cc to the list address, unless the sender has put a mail-copies-to:
> never (or similar) header in the original message.  However, the
> mail-copies-to draftq
> (http://www.newsreaders.com/misc/mail-copies-to.html) says
> 
>   If the header is not present the agent SHOULD NOT set the message to
>   be both posted and mailed.
> 
> 
> Please correct me if I interpret this wrong, or stop sending me
> personal followups.

Gnus follows this rule this in newsgroups, but not for mail folders
unless the group parameters "to-address" are set or so.

ShengHuo

-- 
(setq gnus-posting-styles 
      '((".*" (signature (format "(setq gnus-posting-styles 
      '%S)" gnus-posting-styles)))))

Re: mail-{followup,copies}-to on this list

[Paul Jarc]

NAGY Andras <nagya@inf.elte.hu> writes:
> Please correct me if I interpret this wrong, or stop sending me
> personal followups.

I discourage duplicates by setting Mail-Followup-To, and bouncing any
duplicates that get sent anyway.  I'm subscribed to ding as
prj-ding@...; if anything comes to prj@... with ding@gnus.org in To:
or Cc:, that copy gets bounced.


paul

Re: mail-{followup,copies}-to on this list

[Kai Großjohann]

On 14 Feb 2001, NAGY Andras wrote:

>   If the header is not present the agent SHOULD NOT set the message
>   to be both posted and mailed.
> 
> Please correct me if I interpret this wrong, or stop sending me
> personal followups.

This message is not posted, only mailed.  So technically, this is
okay.  Also, following your interpretation would mean that the MCT/MFT
proposal would change what happens to a message which does NOT contain
these headers.  But surely, in the interest of backward compatibility,
the proposal for a new header should specify that the old behavior is
used in case the header is not present.

Is it so difficult for you to include the MCT/MFT headers?

kai

PS: Sorry for the dupe, but I included it to make a point...
-- 
Be indiscrete.  Do it continuously.

Re: mail-{followup,copies}-to on this list

[NAGY Andras]

Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes:

> >   If the header is not present the agent SHOULD NOT set the message
> >   to be both posted and mailed.
> > 
> > Please correct me if I interpret this wrong, or stop sending me
> > personal followups.
> 
> This message is not posted, only mailed.  So technically, this is
> okay.

In the context of a mailing list, `post' means mail to the list, and
`mail' means private mail, semantically, regardless the actual
technical transport.

> Also, following your interpretation would mean that the MCT/MFT
> proposal would change what happens to a message which does NOT contain
> these headers.  But surely, in the interest of backward compatibility,
> the proposal for a new header should specify that the old behavior is
> used in case the header is not present.

I think most people except public responses (followups) to the mailing
list.  This is also the case when they do not set a MCT/MFT header.
(Perhaps because they don't know about it.)

The common practice on all the mailing lists I know is to send
followups to the list by default.  (This is also what broken list
servers suggest when adding an In-Reply-To header pointing to the
list.)

So, sending a private followup by default is not what most users
except, therefore this interpretation breaks backward compatibility.

> Is it so difficult for you to include the MCT/MFT headers?

Of course not (just looking for some mixture of posting styles and
group parameters).


Andras

Re: mail-{followup,copies}-to on this list

[Per Abrahamsen]

NAGY Andras <nagya@inf.elte.hu> writes:

> (http://www.newsreaders.com/misc/mail-copies-to.html) says
> 
>   If the header is not present the agent SHOULD NOT set the message to
>   be both posted and mailed.
> 
> Please correct me if I interpret this wrong, or stop sending me
> personal followups.

The document is irrelevant, as the document in question only covers
the use of the header on Usenet, not email.  The situation for email
are very different than Usenet, both for cultural and technical
reasons.

However, while the issue is not covered by any standards, there is the
much more important question of politeness.  

Of course, in general it is silly to send multiple copies of the same
message by different paths to the same receiver.  Unfortunately, when
only using the common headers, there is no machanical way an agent can
determine whether the receivers of foo@bar.org is a subset of the
receivers of baz@foobar.net.  Or more specifically, without more
information there is no way Gnus can know that nagya@inf.elte.hu is a
member of the mailing list ding@gnus.org.  To be safe, the default
action have to be to send to both addresses.

There are several solutions to this problem.  Here are some of the
ones the sender can use:

1. He can setup Gnus to sort away duplicates.  This is the one I use,
and I haven't been bothered by duplicates since that.

2. He can use "mail-copies-to: nobody", in order to tell the receiver
that he already read one of the to or cc addresses, so it can ignore
the from address.

3. He can use "mail-followup-to: list@address", to indicate which of
the adresses in question that is most appropriate for wide replies.

4. He can try flaming on the list, and hope the receivers will make it
their problem.  I strongly discourage selecting this option.

The reciecer can also do something, even if he has fewer options.

1. IF the list is closed, i.e. only subscribers send to it, and IF he
read it from a Gnus folder, and IF there are no crossmailed messages
(i.e. messages mailed to multiple lists), he can set the 'to-address'
group parameter.  I do this for some lists, e.g. ding, but not others
like auctex (which is open for non-subscribers) or xemacs-beta (which
has lots of crossmailings).

2. The can manually for each message try to guess who is on which
lists.  I do not recommend this, it is way more unreliable and takes a
lot more work for the receiver, than it would take for the sender to
solve the problem from his side.

Re: mail-{followup,copies}-to on this list

[NAGY Andras]

Okay, you convinced me.  I've chosen the mail-copies-to header.

Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes:

> 4. He can try flaming on the list, and hope the receivers will make it
> their problem.  I strongly discourage selecting this option.

Sorry for this.


Andras

Re: mail-{followup,copies}-to on this list

[Per Abrahamsen]

NAGY Andras <nagya@inf.elte.hu> writes:

> Okay, you convinced me.  I've chosen the mail-copies-to header.
> 
> Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes:
> 
> > 4. He can try flaming on the list, and hope the receivers will make it
> > their problem.  I strongly discourage selecting this option.
> 
> Sorry for this.

I wasn't refering to you, you asked a question which is very relevant
for the list (since Gnus is a mail agent), without flaming anyone.

I apologize if that wasn't clear.

Re: mail-{followup,copies}-to on this list

[Jake Colman]

>>>>> "PA" == Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes:

    PA> 1. He can setup Gnus to sort away duplicates.  This is the one I use,
    PA> and I haven't been bothered by duplicates since that.

How can I do this?

Thanks!

-- 
Jake Colman                     

Principia Partners LLC                  Phone: (201) 946-0300
Harborside Financial Center               Fax: (201) 946-0320
902 Plaza II                           Beeper: (800) 928-4640
Jersey City, NJ 07311                  E-mail: colman@ppllc.com
                                       E-mail: jcolman@jnc.com
                                          web: http://www.ppllc.com

Re: mail-{followup,copies}-to on this list

[Per Abrahamsen]

Jake Colman <colman@ppllc.com> writes:

> >>>>> "PA" == Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes:
> 
>     PA> 1. He can setup Gnus to sort away duplicates.  This is the one I use,
>     PA> and I haven't been bothered by duplicates since that.
> 
> How can I do this?

(setq nnmail-split-methods 'nnmail-split-fancy)

(setq nnmail-split-fancy
      '(| ("gnus-warning" "duplicat.* of message" "duplicate")
          ;; ... more rules ...
       ))

Re: mail-{followup,copies}-to on this list

[David S. Goldberg]

> Some of you send followups to mails on this list to the poster, and a
> cc to the list address, unless the sender has put a mail-copies-to:
> never (or similar) header in the original message.  However, the
> mail-copies-to draftq
> (http://www.newsreaders.com/misc/mail-copies-to.html) says

>   If the header is not present the agent SHOULD NOT set the message to
>   be both posted and mailed.

> Please correct me if I interpret this wrong, or stop sending me
> personal followups.

You're not wrong, but I think you are asking too much of Gnus.  In the
case of newsgroups, Gnus does the right thing by default.  That is,
even in the absence of MCT, it only sends followups to the newsgroup,
not the original poster.  If Gnus knows it's dealing with a mailing
list, it also does the right thing.  You'll note there's no duplicate
message from me directly to you on this reply.  That's because I have
told Gnus (by setting to-list) that when I'm reading the group into
which I file all ding@gnus.org traffic, it should treat wide reply in
the same manner as followup in an nntp newsgroup.  But it can't
possibly know that messages to ding@gnus.org should be treated
specially if I don't tell it to do so.

-- 
Dave Goldberg
dsg@world.std.com