Congratulations, Larsi

Congratulations, Larsi

[Jonas Luster]

Gnus has passed GNKSA today.
Congratulations, Larsi.

Product Name           : Gnus
Product Version        : p0.44
Tested on platform     : FreeBSD, Linux, Solaris
Available for platforms: Everything XEmacs runs on
Evaluation date        : 1998-11-15
Evaluated by           : Jonas Luster <jonas@freebse.org>

Conclusion
==========

Gnus p0.44 satisfies the basic GNKSA requirements, and therefore
from now on may proudly carry the Good Net-Keeping Seal of Approval.

Summary
=======

         Pass   Fail   Total   Pass/Fail%
MUSTs     39      0      39    100%/0%
SHOULDs   23      4      27     85%/15%

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% 100%M
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%            85%S
                                                   [GNKSA Score-O-Meter]

Details
=======

Gnus p0.44 violates `soft' GNKSA requirements (SHOULDs)
in the following way:

    10e  Does not let the user indicate which part to followup to
    16b  Does not refuse posting an empty article
    16d  Does not refuse to post quoted text only
    16f  Does not try to prevent posting multiple copies entirely

Gnus p0.44 offers the following nice net-keeping
features unmentioned by the GNKSA:

You know, this is Gnus.  Fairly everything is possible - and if it's 
impossible, Lars will make it possible the next release :).

Checklist
=========                                                       (M)UST /
                                                                (S)HOULD
1) Displays all essential header information
   Software clearly displays:
   [Y] a) Article's author (From)                                      M
   [Y] b) Article's Subject                                            M
   [Y] c) List of groups posted to (Newsgroups)                        M
   [Y] d) Where (and how) to direct followups (Followup-To)            M
   [Y] e) Where to reply to if not the From-address (Reply-To)         M
[Y] PASS: Satisfies all MUSTs                                          M

2) Provides clear, separate commands for new  posting, followup, and
   e-mail reply
   [Y] a) for posting a new article                                    M
   [Y] b) for posting a followup article                               M
   [Y] c) for replying by e-mail                                       M
   [Y] d) Uses standard terminology                                    S
   [Y] e) Avoids ambiguous terminology                                 S
[Y] PASS: Satisfies all MUSTs                                          M

3) Provides cross-posting functionality
   [Y] a) Allows specifying multiple groups                            M
   [Y] b) Warns about, or prevents, posting to large numbers of groups S
   [Y] c) Strongly encourages setting Followup-To: on large crossposts S
          (`Y' if large crosspostings are disallowed)
[Y] PASS: Satisfies all MUSTs                                          M

4) Allows users to change essential headers
   [Y] a) Allows editing Subject at all times during composition       M
   [Y] b) Allows specifying new Subject of at least 70 characters      M
   [Y] c) Allows setting "Followup-To: poster"                         M
[Y] PASS: Satisfies all MUSTs                                          M

5) Ensures followups and e-mail replies contain a correct Subject
   [Y] a) Prepends "Re: " if (and only if) not already present         M
   [Y] b) Preserves entire original Subject (modulo minor repairs)     M
[Y] PASS: Satisfies all MUSTs                                          M

6) Directs followups to the correct newsgroups
   [Y] a) Initiates e-mail reply rather than a followup posting on
          "Followup-To: poster", clearly informing the user            M
   [Y] b) Posts to groups in Followup-To if present                    M
   [Y] c) Posts to groups in Newsgroups otherwise                      M
[Y] PASS: Satisfies all MUSTs                                          M

7) Make sure followups contain valid References
   [Y] a) Creates References header with Message-ID of original article
          as the last element                                          M
   [Y] b) Includes last three References from original                 M
   [Y] c) Ensures References will fit in 998 characters                M
   [Y] d) Keep as many References from original as fit                 S
   [Y] e) Does not propagate broken Message-IDs in original References S
[Y] PASS: Satisfies all MUSTs                                          M

8) Direct e-mail replies to the correct address
   [Y] a) Uses Reply-To if present                                     M
   [Y] b) Uses From address otherwise                                  M
[Y] PASS: Satisfies all MUSTs                                          M

9) Allow the user to change her mind about whether to post or mail (or
   do both) and behave if doing both
   [Y] a) Allows users to change their mind and mail rather than
          post after having initiated a followup message               S
   [Y] b) Allows users to change their mind and post rather than
          mail after having initiated a reply message                  S
   [Y] c) Does not offer both posting and mailing as default behaviour M
   [Y] d) Inserts a notification that the message was posted as well
          as mailed in the e-mail copy when both posting and mailing
          a followup article                                           S
[Y] PASS: Satisfies all MUSTs                                          M

10) Provide adequate quotation and attribution facilities
    [Y] a) Allows including quoted original                            M
    [Y] b) Clearly distinguishes quoted material                       M
    [Y] c) Prefixes quoted material with `>'/`> '                      S
    [Y] d) Omits correctly delimited signatures from quoted material   S
    [N] e) Provides a means of indicating which part(s) to followup to S
    [Y] f) Attribution line containing original author precedes quotes M
[Y] PASS: Satisfies all MUSTs                                          M

11) Provide a user-specified "Subject: " header
    [Y] a) Requires non-empty, user-specified Subject for new articles M
    [Y] b) Refuses posting articles without, or with an empty, Subject M
    [Y] c) Does not provide default Subject if user did not set one    M
    [Y] d) Allows changing the Subject at any time while editing       M
[Y] PASS: Satisfies all MUSTs                                          M

12) Provide a valid "From: " header
    [Y] a) Sets "From: " header to syntactically valid e-mail address  M
    [Y] b) Refuses posting articles without a syntactically valid
           "From: " header                                             M
    [Y] c) Uses correct e-mail addresses (valid and belonging to the
           user) only, as far as it can possibly know                  S
[Y] PASS: Satisfies all MUSTs                                          M

13) Allow users to both cancel and supersede their own articles (and
    _no_ others!)
    [Y] a) Allows cancelling articles                                  S
    [Y] b) Allows superseding articles                                 S
    [Y] c) As far as possible, does not allow cancelling or superseding
           other peoples' articles                                     M
    [Y] d) Uses standard terminology                                   S
[Y] PASS: Satisfies all MUSTs                                          M

14) Try to respect the 80-character line-length convention
    [Y] a) Articles are posted as edited, with linebreaking intact     S
    [Y] b) Warns about lines over 80 characters                        S
    [Y] c) Does not refuse to post articles containing long lines      S
    [Y] d) Allows rewrapping quoted text                               S
    [Y] e) Enforces formatting requirements on article after external
           editing (`Y' if there is no support for external editors)   S
[Y] PASS: Satisfies all MUSTs                                          M

15) Separate signatures correctly, and don't use excessive ones
    [Y] a) Uses (and enforces) standard signature delimiter            S
    [Y] b) Warns against or refuses to use excessive signatures        S
[Y] PASS: Satisfies all MUSTs                                          M

16) Try to prevent obvious user errors
    [Y] a) Warns when attempting to post empty articles                M
    [N] b) Refuses posting empty articles                              S
    [Y] c) Warns when post articles containing quoted material only    M
    [N] d) Refuses posting quoted-text-only articles                   S
    [Y] e) Warns against posting multiple copies (`Y' if impossible)   M
    [N] f) Prevents multiple posting entirely                          S
[Y] PASS: Satisfies all MUSTs                                          M

17) Post human-readable articles unless ordered otherwise
    [Y] Does not (and can not) encode or encrypt articles unless
        on explicit user demand                                        M
[Y] PASS: Satisfies all MUSTs                                          M

18) Provide self-protection
    [Y] Allows filtering out annoying articles (killing)               S
[Y] PASS: Satisfies all MUSTs                                          M

19) Be kind to servers, leave room for others
    [Y] a) Does not unnecessarily open multiple connections            M
    [Y] b) Does not generate excessive server load otherwise           M
[Y] PASS: Satisfies all MUSTs                                          M



-- 
Den Leuten, die [...] auf die Unverbindlichkeit der Netiquette pochen, 
geht es ähnlich wie den leuten, die darauf pochen, daß das 20. Jahrhundert 
und mit ihm das 2. Jahrtausend erst am 31.12.2000 enden: Sie mögen objektiv 
recht haben, aber sie verpassen deswegen eine tolle Party. [M. Ottenbruch]

GNKSA (was: Re: Congratulations, Larsi)

[Per Abrahamsen]

Jonas Luster <jonas@newsbone.org> writes:

> Gnus p0.44 violates `soft' GNKSA requirements (SHOULDs)
> in the following way:

>     10e  Does not let the user indicate which part to followup to

This could be done in transient-mark-mode (only yank the selected text
if the mark is active, otherwise yank everything).  It might even be
useful.

>     16f  Does not try to prevent posting multiple copies entirely

What would doing this mean?  

>     16b  Does not refuse posting an empty article
>     16d  Does not refuse to post quoted text only

There are code for these.  Doesn't it work?

Re: Congratulations, Larsi

[Karl Kleinpaste]

Jonas Luster <jonas@newsbone.org> writes:
> Gnus p0.44 violates `soft' GNKSA requirements (SHOULDs)
> in the following way:
>     10e  Does not let the user indicate which part to followup to

I believe `C-c C-v' qualifies.  I used it on this message.

>     16b  Does not refuse posting an empty article
>     16d  Does not refuse to post quoted text only
>     16f  Does not try to prevent posting multiple copies entirely

These are bogus "SHOULDs" anyhow -- I wouldn't want Gnus to do these
things.  (I often post "empty" notes to our internal newsgroups
jprc.support.* whose entire [still very useful] content is in the
Subject -- status messages about things that have been fixed, changed,
or are otherwise in flux.)

Re: GNKSA (was: Re: Congratulations, Larsi)

[Karl Kleinpaste]

Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes:
>>     16f  Does not try to prevent posting multiple copies entirely

> What would doing this mean?

I think this is actually present: Gnus observes that one's message has
already been sent, and asks whether you really want to re-send.

>>     16b  Does not refuse posting an empty article
>>     16d  Does not refuse to post quoted text only

> There are code for these.  Doesn't it work?

Apparently, the complaint is that the code is advisory, and does not
conduct absolute enforcement.  See the report detail in #16.

Re: GNKSA (was: Re: Congratulations, Larsi)

[Jonas Luster]

Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes:

> >     16b  Does not refuse posting an empty article
> >     16d  Does not refuse to post quoted text only
> 
> There are code for these.  Doesn't it work?

GNKSA requires the Feature to be on by default, iow to run with a
zero-byte .gnus and no additional information (except username, etc.)
in .xemacs.
You could even make Gnus totally GNKSA in-compliant by fiddling with
the .gnus.el.

Additionally: Warning does not mean refusing :)

jonas (likes warnings better than refuses)


-- 
Den Leuten, die [...] auf die Unverbindlichkeit der Netiquette pochen, 
geht es ähnlich wie den leuten, die darauf pochen, daß das 20. Jahrhundert 
und mit ihm das 2. Jahrtausend erst am 31.12.2000 enden: Sie mögen objektiv 
recht haben, aber sie verpassen deswegen eine tolle Party. [M. Ottenbruch]

Re: Congratulations, Larsi

[Jonas Luster]

Karl Kleinpaste <karl@justresearch.com> writes:

> Jonas Luster <jonas@newsbone.org> writes:
> > Gnus p0.44 violates `soft' GNKSA requirements (SHOULDs)
> > in the following way:
> >     10e  Does not let the user indicate which part to followup to
> 
> I believe `C-c C-v' qualifies.  I used it on this message.

So I'll change this one.

> >     16b  Does not refuse posting an empty article
> >     16d  Does not refuse to post quoted text only
> >     16f  Does not try to prevent posting multiple copies entirely
> 
> These are bogus "SHOULDs" anyhow -- I wouldn't want Gnus to do these
> things.  (I often post "empty" notes to our internal newsgroups
> jprc.support.* whose entire [still very useful] content is in the
> Subject -- status messages about things that have been fixed, changed,
> or are otherwise in flux.)

Wheter they are or not is not in my hands :). I just did the
evaluation because I beleived that Larsi and Gnus deserved the GNKSA
(and they got it :). I, personally, use this features quite often too, 
but it's Jeroen's view how a Newsreader should be like and Gnus
basically is a Newsreader, Jeroen likes.
GNKSA is not much more than the reflection of some Idealists ideals
and does not generally claim to be general consensus.

jonas


-- 
Den Leuten, die [...] auf die Unverbindlichkeit der Netiquette pochen, 
geht es ähnlich wie den leuten, die darauf pochen, daß das 20. Jahrhundert 
und mit ihm das 2. Jahrtausend erst am 31.12.2000 enden: Sie mögen objektiv 
recht haben, aber sie verpassen deswegen eine tolle Party. [M. Ottenbruch]

Re: Congratulations, Larsi

[Alexandre Oliva]

On Nov 17, 1998, Karl Kleinpaste <karl@justresearch.com> wrote:

> Jonas Luster <jonas@newsbone.org> writes:
>> Gnus p0.44 violates `soft' GNKSA requirements (SHOULDs)
>> in the following way:
>> 10e  Does not let the user indicate which part to followup to

> I believe `C-c C-v' qualifies.  I used it on this message.

I don't think so.  Suppose you've received a digest with several
messages as attachments, and you want to followup to one of the
attached messages, not to the full message.

Anyway, I think gnus can already do that, if you C-d the digest and
followup to some of the individual messages.

>> 16b  Does not refuse posting an empty article
>> 16d  Does not refuse to post quoted text only
>> 16f  Does not try to prevent posting multiple copies entirely

> These are bogus "SHOULDs" anyhow -- I wouldn't want Gnus to do these
> things.  (I often post "empty" notes to our internal newsgroups
> jprc.support.* whose entire [still very useful] content is in the
> Subject -- status messages about things that have been fixed, changed,
> or are otherwise in flux.)

Although gnus currently provides an option for the user to do that, it 
might be nice if it would only do so if a certain variable (custom?)
was set.  If such variable is not enabled, gnus would just refuse to
post such messages, possibly indicating a section of the manual in
order to allow such behavior.  Group parameters could also be used to
selectively enable/disable this.

-- 
Alexandre Oliva  http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~oliva  aoliva@{acm.org}
oliva@{dcc.unicamp.br,gnu.org,egcs.cygnus.com,samba.org.au}
Universidade Estadual de Campinas, SP, Brasil

Re: Congratulations, Larsi

[Kai.Grossjohann]

Jonas Luster <jonas@newsbone.org> writes:

  > Gnus p0.44 violates `soft' GNKSA requirements (SHOULDs)
  > in the following way:
  > 
  >     10e  Does not let the user indicate which part to followup to

Using C-d (M-x gnus-summary-enter-digest-group RET) means one can
follow up to any message in that digest, or to any part in a
multipart/mixed message.

...in case C-c C-v is not what was meant.

  >     16b  Does not refuse posting an empty article
  >     16d  Does not refuse to post quoted text only
  >     16f  Does not try to prevent posting multiple copies entirely

kai
-- 
Life is hard and then you die.

Re: Congratulations, Larsi

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Alexandre Oliva <oliva@dcc.unicamp.br> writes:


> Although gnus currently provides an option for the user to do that, it 
> might be nice if it would only do so if a certain variable (custom?)
> was set.  If such variable is not enabled, gnus would just refuse to
> post such messages, possibly indicating a section of the manual in
> order to allow such behavior.

I don't see any reason to disallow posting, say, empty messages.  The
user is given a warning that it's probably not a good idea to do so,
but there are legitimate reasons to post empty messages.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: Congratulations, Larsi

[Alexandre Oliva]

On Nov 17, 1998, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> wrote:

> Alexandre Oliva <oliva@dcc.unicamp.br> writes:

>> Although gnus currently provides an option for the user to do that, it 
>> might be nice if it would only do so if a certain variable (custom?)
>> was set.  If such variable is not enabled, gnus would just refuse to
>> post such messages, possibly indicating a section of the manual in
>> order to allow such behavior.

> I don't see any reason to disallow posting, say, empty messages.  The
> user is given a warning that it's probably not a good idea to do so,
> but there are legitimate reasons to post empty messages.

You know, sometimes we just get used to warning messages, and our
fingers learn how to skip them faster than our brains can tell them
not to...

If we could have a finer control on which groups can accept empty
postings (say, (allow-empty-postings nil|t|'ask)), we'd hopefully be
able to have no warnings in the groups we usually post empty messages
to, confirmed empty postings on others, and absolutely no empty
messages on those that wouldn't tolerate that.

-- 
Alexandre Oliva  http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~oliva  aoliva@{acm.org}
oliva@{dcc.unicamp.br,gnu.org,egcs.cygnus.com,samba.org.au}
Universidade Estadual de Campinas, SP, Brasil

Re: Congratulations, Larsi

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Alexandre Oliva <oliva@dcc.unicamp.br> writes:


> You know, sometimes we just get used to warning messages, and our
> fingers learn how to skip them faster than our brains can tell them
> not to...

That's why Gnus keeps warnings down to a minimum, and only bothers the
user if she tries to do something really odd.  

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: GNKSA (was: Re: Congratulations, Larsi)

[Per Abrahamsen]

Jonas Luster <jonas@newsbone.org> writes:

> Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes:
> 
> > >     16b  Does not refuse posting an empty article
> > >     16d  Does not refuse to post quoted text only
> > 
> > There are code for these.  Doesn't it work?
> 
> GNKSA requires the Feature to be on by default, iow to run with a
> zero-byte .gnus and no additional information (except username, etc.)
> in .xemacs.

I think they should be on by default, as they are useful for novice
users.  Experienced people like Karl Kleinpaste can easily turn them
off.

> You could even make Gnus totally GNKSA in-compliant by fiddling with
> the .gnus.el.

It's Lisp, you can rewrite the entire newsreader in that file.

> Additionally: Warning does not mean refusing :)
> 
> jonas (likes warnings better than refuses)

Me too.  This part is a bug in the GNKSA.