From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.emacs.gnus.general/67657 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel,gmane.emacs.gnus.general Subject: Re: gnus should accept UTF8 even if UTF-8 is standard Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 14:40:03 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87wsg2tvcn.fsf@xemacs.org> <20081021062510.GB22593@tomas> <87prlutizh.fsf@xemacs.org> <87k5c2tan9.fsf@xemacs.org> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1224592849 13112 80.91.229.12 (21 Oct 2008 12:40:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 12:40:49 +0000 (UTC) Cc: rms@gnu.org, ding@gnus.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, tomas@tuxteam.de, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, miles@gnu.org To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Oct 21 14:41:41 2008 connect(): Connection refused Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1KsGYH-0001U1-I0 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 21 Oct 2008 14:41:33 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45428 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KsGXC-0000Py-AN for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 21 Oct 2008 08:40:26 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KsGX8-0000Pt-8Y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 21 Oct 2008 08:40:22 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KsGX7-0000Pd-Cc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 21 Oct 2008 08:40:22 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=40328 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KsGX7-0000Pa-8G for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 21 Oct 2008 08:40:21 -0400 Original-Received: from mtaout6.012.net.il ([84.95.2.16]:44850) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1KsGX1-0000Gw-Tx; Tue, 21 Oct 2008 08:40:16 -0400 Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.98.197]) by i-mtaout6.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0K9300GLI9X3H1J0@i-mtaout6.012.net.il>; Tue, 21 Oct 2008 14:41:38 +0200 (IST) In-reply-to: <87k5c2tan9.fsf@xemacs.org> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (1203?) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:104746 gmane.emacs.gnus.general:67657 Archived-At: > From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" > Cc: rms@gnu.org, > ding@gnus.org, > emacs-devel@gnu.org, > tomas@tuxteam.de, > monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, > miles@gnu.org > Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 21:06:50 +0900 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > > > That implies that the return value would be a string, not the coding > > > > system itself. I suggest we return the coding system (or nil), not > > > > just the name. > > > > > > The coding system *is* just a name > > > > Not in GNU Emacs; see the doc string of `define-coding-system' (in > > Emacs 23) or `make-coding-system' (in Emacs 22). > > If that's true, it's a shame; AFAICS there is no real utility to > exposing the coding system object to Lisp Emacs does not expose coding systems to Lisp. A coding system is a just a symbol with special attributes, as far as Lisp is concerned. This must be a misunderstanding of some kind, because I'm sure we are talking about something we both understand. Let me take a step back and explain what I meant in my original message: > > Perhaps something like `canonicalize-coding-system-name' would be good. > > That implies that the return value would be a string, not the coding > system itself. I suggest we return the coding system (or nil), not > just the name. What I meant is that, instead of returning a _string_, which is the name of a coding system, it is better to return a _symbol_ of that coding system. This will avoid the need to `intern' that string, which is a gratuitous nuisance, because the function we are discussing will most probably need to `intern' the string itself, for doing its job. I'm sure we both understand the difference between a thing and its name, so vividly explained by Luis Carrol ;-) > "utf8" is not a MIME charset (and no form of UTF-8 is an Emacs > charset), but "utf-8" is an IANA-registered MIME charset. Yes. > AIUI, the point of the function is to guess what people who don't > know what they're doing are trying to express (and to provide some > interactive convenience to people who do know what they're doing). Agreed, but in most cases the argument will be a valid MIME charset. The case of "UTF8" is an exception. And even in this exceptional case, I understand that "UTF8" came from some charset= header. That is why I suggested coding-system-for-charset. I don't mind coding-system-for-mime-charset, either, if that was your point. (In Emacs 23+, the original Mule meaning of "charset" will fade out.)