Syncing Gnus and Emacs repositories

Syncing Gnus and Emacs repositories

[Reiner Steib]

Hi,

Miles is syncing changes from Gnus repository (stable branch = v5-10)
to the Emacs trunk.

IMHO, now it would more sense to merge these changes to EMACS_22_BASE
(the 22.x release branch in Emacs' repository) instead.  Changes in
v5-10 are only bug- and doc-fixes, so we should have all these changes
in Emacs 22.2 as well.

Miles, could you arrange this (unless there are objections)?

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo---  |  PGP key available  |  http://rsteib.home.pages.de/

Re: Syncing Gnus and Emacs repositories

[Stefan Monnier]

> Miles is syncing changes from Gnus repository (stable branch = v5-10)
> to the Emacs trunk.

> IMHO, now it would more sense to merge these changes to EMACS_22_BASE
> (the 22.x release branch in Emacs' repository) instead.  Changes in
> v5-10 are only bug- and doc-fixes, so we should have all these changes
> in Emacs 22.2 as well.

> Miles, could you arrange this (unless there are objections)?

Agreed.  And I'd also argue that the Emacs trunk version of Gnus should be
upgraded to the Gnus trunk now (and then kept in sync).


        Stefan

Re: Syncing Gnus and Emacs repositories

[Reiner Steib]

On Wed, Jun 13 2007, Stefan Monnier wrote:

>> IMHO, now it would more sense to merge these changes to EMACS_22_BASE
>> (the 22.x release branch in Emacs' repository) instead.  Changes in
>> v5-10 are only bug- and doc-fixes, so we should have all these changes
>> in Emacs 22.2 as well.
>
>> Miles, could you arrange this (unless there are objections)?
>
> Agreed.   And I'd also argue that the Emacs trunk version of Gnus should be
> upgraded to the Gnus trunk now (and then kept in sync).

Funny, that's what I suggested to Lars this morning.  ;-) But I wanted
to wait for his response before suggesting it here.

If we do this, we (Gnus developers) need to make sure to bring No Gnus
("No Gnus" = the current development version = Gnus trunk) into a
stable state in time for the feature freeze of Emacs 23.  Nobody knows
when Emacs 23 will be ready, but I think this is feasible.

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo---  |  PGP key available  |  http://rsteib.home.pages.de/

Re: Syncing Gnus and Emacs repositories

[Stefan Monnier]

> If we do this, we (Gnus developers) need to make sure to bring No Gnus
> ("No Gnus" = the current development version = Gnus trunk) into a
> stable state in time for the feature freeze of Emacs 23.

I'd be surprised if it's not the case.  A feature freeze for Emacs-23 will
probably not happen for a while.  Several people will have to eat their
shorts if Emacs-23 comes out before 2010.


        Stefan

Re: Syncing Gnus and Emacs repositories

[Reiner Steib]

On Wed, Jun 13 2007, Reiner Steib wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 13 2007, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>
>>> IMHO, now it would more sense to merge these changes to EMACS_22_BASE
>>> (the 22.x release branch in Emacs' repository) instead.  Changes in
>>> v5-10 are only bug- and doc-fixes, so we should have all these changes
>>> in Emacs 22.2 as well.
>>
>>> Miles, could you arrange this (unless there are objections)?

Thanks for setting this up, Miles.

>> Agreed.   And I'd also argue that the Emacs trunk version of Gnus should be
>> upgraded to the Gnus trunk now (and then kept in sync).
>
> Funny, that's what I suggested to Lars this morning.  ;-) But I wanted
> to wait for his response before suggesting it here.

Lars has agreed and nobody has objected.

Miles, could you please set up syncing Gnus trunk and Emacs trunk as
well (after your vacation)?

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo---  |  PGP key available  |  http://rsteib.home.pages.de/

Re: Syncing Gnus and Emacs repositories

[Miles Bader]

Reiner Steib <reinersteib+gmane@imap.cc> writes:
>>> Agreed.   And I'd also argue that the Emacs trunk version of Gnus should be
>>> upgraded to the Gnus trunk now (and then kept in sync).
>>
>> Funny, that's what I suggested to Lars this morning.  ;-) But I wanted
>> to wait for his response before suggesting it here.
>
> Lars has agreed and nobody has objected.
>
> Miles, could you please set up syncing Gnus trunk and Emacs trunk as
> well (after your vacation)?

I'm back from my holiday, and I'd like to just confirm once more that
it's OK to change the version of Gnus in the Emacs trunk to be the
current Gnus trunk.  [Didn't see any comments in response to this
thread.]

Thanks,

-Miles

-- 
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(^.^)
(")")
*This is the cute kitty virus, please copy this into your sig so it can spread.

Re: Syncing Gnus and Emacs repositories

[Richard Stallman]

    I'm back from my holiday, and I'd like to just confirm once more that
    it's OK to change the version of Gnus in the Emacs trunk to be the
    current Gnus trunk.

On general principles, it is fine.
Whether there is some specific reason not to,
I would not know.

Re: Syncing Gnus and Emacs repositories

[Miles Bader]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
>     I'm back from my holiday, and I'd like to just confirm once more that
>     it's OK to change the version of Gnus in the Emacs trunk to be the
>     current Gnus trunk.
>
> On general principles, it is fine.
> Whether there is some specific reason not to,
> I would not know.

I tried a test-merge and one problem I ran into is that the Gnus trunk
contains a "newer" version of pgg*.el, which has been abandoned by its
author and as I recall was rejected for merging into Emacs.

I'd suggest that the proper thing to do (supported by a previous
discussion on the Gnus developer list) is first revert the version of
pgg in the Gnus trunk to that in the Gnus 5.10 branch, and perhaps wait
a while for any bugs to be fixed before merging the Gnus trunk into
Emacs.

Is there anybody who can do that (revert pgg in the Gnus trunk to the
version in the 5.10 branch, and remove any unneeded files like
password.el)?  I can try to do it myself, but perhaps there are subtle
points of the interface between Gnus and pgg that I'd screw up...

Thanks,

-Miles

-- 
Americans are broad-minded people.  They'll accept the fact that a person can
be an alcoholic, a dope fiend, a wife beater, and even a newspaperman, but if a
man doesn't drive, there is something wrong with him.  -- Art Buchwald

Re: Syncing Gnus and Emacs repositories

[Daiki Ueno]

>>>>> In <buo3azwpmzb.fsf@dhapc248.dev.necel.com> 
>>>>>	Miles Bader <miles.bader@necel.com> wrote:
> I tried a test-merge and one problem I ran into is that the Gnus trunk
> contains a "newer" version of pgg*.el, which has been abandoned by its
> author and as I recall was rejected for merging into Emacs.

Indeed I (the author) did abandoned pgg*.el, and the Gnus trunk does not
use them by default.

> Is there anybody who can do that (revert pgg in the Gnus trunk to the
> version in the 5.10 branch, and remove any unneeded files like
> password.el)?  I can try to do it myself, but perhaps there are subtle
> points of the interface between Gnus and pgg that I'd screw up...

Could you describe the "subtle points"?  I'll try to fix that tomorrow.

Regards,
-- 
Daiki Ueno

Re: Syncing Gnus and Emacs repositories

[Leo]

On 10/07/2007, Daiki Ueno wrote:
>> I tried a test-merge and one problem I ran into is that the Gnus
>> trunk contains a "newer" version of pgg*.el, which has been abandoned
>> by its author and as I recall was rejected for merging into Emacs.
>
> Indeed I (the author) did abandoned pgg*.el, and the Gnus trunk does
> not use them by default.

If it is possible, let's just move to easypg, of which Daiki is also the
author.

-- 
Leo <sdl.web AT gmail.com>                         (GPG Key: 9283AA3F)

Re: Syncing Gnus and Emacs repositories

[Miles Bader]

Leo <sdl.web@gmail.com> writes:
>> Indeed I (the author) did abandoned pgg*.el, and the Gnus trunk does
>> not use them by default.
>
> If it is possible, let's just move to easypg, of which Daiki is also the
> author.

That can happen later.  For now let's just do the simple and
straight-forward thing.

-Miles

-- 
"1971 pickup truck; will trade for guns"

Re: Syncing Gnus and Emacs repositories

[Stefan Monnier]

>>> Indeed I (the author) did abandoned pgg*.el, and the Gnus trunk does
>>> not use them by default.
>> 
>> If it is possible, let's just move to easypg, of which Daiki is also the
>> author.

> That can happen later.  For now let's just do the simple and
> straight-forward thing.

Indeed, we're talking about switching the Emacs trunk's version og Gnus to
the Gnus trunk, not about changing the Gnus trunk.


        Stefan

Re: Syncing Gnus and Emacs repositories

[Miles Bader]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
>> That can happen later.  For now let's just do the simple and
>> straight-forward thing.
>
> Indeed, we're talking about switching the Emacs trunk's version og Gnus to
> the Gnus trunk, not about changing the Gnus trunk.

Yes, but I really want the code in both to be as similar as possible.  I
could just toss out the new pgg*.el stuff when merging, but then Gnus
may stop working with pgg in Emacs.  Given that pgg in the Gnus trunk is
pretty much a lame duck anyway, it seems a lot saner to just get things
into a good and mergeable state in the Gnus trunk and then merge it into
Emacs with minimal changes.

-Miles

-- 
Is it true that nothing can be known?  If so how do we know this?  -Woody Allen

Re: Syncing Gnus and Emacs repositories

[Richard Stallman]

    Yes, but I really want the code in both to be as similar as possible.  I
    could just toss out the new pgg*.el stuff when merging, but then Gnus
    may stop working with pgg in Emacs.

Why would it not work with the pgg in Emacs?
The former Gnus code did.  Restoring both pgg*
and the callers of it as they were before
(when this code was put into Emacs before)
is the easiest thing to do.

Re: Syncing Gnus and Emacs repositories

[Daiki Ueno]

>>>>> In <87ps303tzf.fsf@catnip.gol.com> 
>>>>>	Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> wrote:
> Leo <sdl.web@gmail.com> writes:
> >> Indeed I (the author) did abandoned pgg*.el, and the Gnus trunk does
> >> not use them by default.
> >
> > If it is possible, let's just move to easypg, of which Daiki is also the
> > author.

> That can happen later.  For now let's just do the simple and
> straight-forward thing.

Perhaps.  However, it might be better to include EasyPG before synching
Gnus, because it has been the default PGP backend of the Gnus trunk for
one year and has been tested.  If we revert the pgg*.el, we will need to
wait a while for testing.

I also recalled a private conversation with Richard,

>>>>> In <E1H0Juj-0005YY-RU@fencepost.gnu.org> 
>>>>>	Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:
>     By the way, I'll propose addition of EasyPG http://www.easypg.org to
>     Emacs, after the release.  It is an all-in-one GnuPG interface and
>     hopefully a better replacement of mailcrypt, crypt++, encrypt.el, PGG,
>     gpg.el, gpg-ring.el, smime.el, etc.

> That might be a good idea, assuming all the developers want to sign
> papers.  Would you like to talk with them and see?

I'm willing to do that.

Regards,
-- 
Daiki Ueno

Re: Syncing Gnus and Emacs repositories

[Miles Bader]

Daiki Ueno <ueno@unixuser.org> writes:
>> That can happen later.  For now let's just do the simple and
>> straight-forward thing.
>
> Perhaps.  However, it might be better to include EasyPG before synching
> Gnus, because it has been the default PGP backend of the Gnus trunk for
> one year and has been tested.  If we revert the pgg*.el, we will need to
> wait a while for testing.

???

Since easypg isn't included in the gnus trunk or emacs trunk (how can it
be "the default" if it isn't included?), surely it would require testing
too.

-miles

-- 
x
y
Z!

Re: Syncing Gnus and Emacs repositories

[Daiki Ueno]

>>>>> In <87ejjf50pk.fsf@catnip.gol.com> 
>>>>>	Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> wrote:
> Daiki Ueno <ueno@unixuser.org> writes:
> >> That can happen later.  For now let's just do the simple and
> >> straight-forward thing.
> >
> > Perhaps.  However, it might be better to include EasyPG before synching
> > Gnus, because it has been the default PGP backend of the Gnus trunk for
> > one year and has been tested.  If we revert the pgg*.el, we will need to
> > wait a while for testing.

> Since easypg isn't included in the gnus trunk or emacs trunk (how can it
> be "the default" if it isn't included?), surely it would require testing
> too.

What I mean by "the default" is that if EasyPG is installed Gnus will
give it precedence over PGG.  Since EasyPG is not a library exclusively
used by Gnus, it has been developped outside the Gnus repository.

The point is, if there are any points of the interface between Gnus and
PGG (as you said), we have to change the caller (i.e. Gnus) and it might
cause a new bug.  On the other hand, EasyPG does not need such a change.
If EasyPG is merged before the Gnus synch, users can continue to use
Gnus' PGP commands via EasyPG while fixing Gnus and PGG issues.

Regards,
-- 
Daiki Ueno

Re: Syncing Gnus and Emacs repositories

[Richard Stallman]

Please do talk with the easypg developers about merging it into Emacs.
However, Emacs and Gnus can't use it until that is done.

Re: Syncing Gnus and Emacs repositories

[Richard Stallman]

    > Indeed I (the author) did abandoned pgg*.el, and the Gnus trunk does
    > not use them by default.

Why doesn't it?  Since pgg*.el are now a standard part of Emacs, it
makes sense for Gnus to use them.

What does it use instead?

    If it is possible, let's just move to easypg, of which Daiki is also the
    author.

That is a much bigger change, which we'd have to think about.

Re: Syncing Gnus and Emacs repositories

[Daiki Ueno]

>>>>> In <E1I8SW9-0002tE-9R@fencepost.gnu.org> 
>>>>>	Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:
>     > Indeed I (the author) did abandoned pgg*.el, and the Gnus trunk does
>     > not use them by default.

> Why doesn't it?  Since pgg*.el are now a standard part of Emacs, it
> makes sense for Gnus to use them.

Because that is the only advantage of PGG.  I'm aware of many
limitations of PGG.

- PGG can't handle a message signed with multiple keys.
- PGG can't prompt a user which key is being used.
- PGG can't create a binary PGP messages.
- PGG doesn't provide a way to select keys per cryptographic operation.
- PGG ignores GnuPG's trust metrics.
- PGG can't integrate well with mail-mode.
- etc.

Frankly, (at least) I don't want to extend PGG to support these issues,
because that requires almost rewrite of the slightly outdated code
(actually, PGG is my first elisp program written about 10 years ago ;-)

> What does it use instead?

EasyPG.  If it is available, Gnus automatically detects it.

>     If it is possible, let's just move to easypg, of which Daiki is also the
>     author.

> That is a much bigger change, which we'd have to think about.

I think that is not so big change.  Because it requires just 7 files
(epg*.el, epa*.el) to be included.

Regards,
-- 
Daiki Ueno

Re: Syncing Gnus and Emacs repositories

[Sascha Wilde]

Daiki Ueno <ueno@unixuser.org> wrote:
[...]
> Frankly, (at least) I don't want to extend PGG to support these issues,
> because that requires almost rewrite of the slightly outdated code
> (actually, PGG is my first elisp program written about 10 years ago ;-)
>
>> What does it use instead?
>
> EasyPG.  If it is available, Gnus automatically detects it.

In general I agree that replacing PGG is TRTTD.  I haven't had time to
look at EasyPG yet, but some questions come to my mind: 

- are the features I added to PGG (symmetric encryption, use of
  gpg-agent) already in EasyPG?

- how does EasyPG communicate with gpg?

  The (strongly) recommended way to utilizes gpg in applications is
  using the gpgme api (or maybe the assuan protocol directly, but I'm
  not sure about this, I added Werner Koch to the CC, so he might
  comment on this).

  It would be great if EasyPG would do just that.

- Is there any S/MIME support in EasyPG?
  As gpg supports S/MIME since version 2.x this would be a great
  enhancement.

cheers
sascha
-- 
Sascha Wilde 
- no sig today... sorry!

Re: Syncing Gnus and Emacs repositories

[Daiki Ueno]

>>>>> In <m2abu3i8kb.fsf@kenny.sha-bang.de> 
>>>>>	Sascha Wilde <wilde@sha-bang.de> wrote:
> Daiki Ueno <ueno@unixuser.org> wrote:
> [...]
> > Frankly, (at least) I don't want to extend PGG to support these issues,
> > because that requires almost rewrite of the slightly outdated code
> > (actually, PGG is my first elisp program written about 10 years ago ;-)
> >
> >> What does it use instead?
> >
> > EasyPG.  If it is available, Gnus automatically detects it.

> In general I agree that replacing PGG is TRTTD.  I haven't had time to
> look at EasyPG yet, but some questions come to my mind: 

> - are the features I added to PGG (symmetric encryption, use of
>   gpg-agent) already in EasyPG?

Yes, but the implementation is different.

> - how does EasyPG communicate with gpg?

>   The (strongly) recommended way to utilizes gpg in applications is
>   using the gpgme api (or maybe the assuan protocol directly, but I'm
>   not sure about this, I added Werner Koch to the CC, so he might
>   comment on this).

You didn't look into the source code of GPGME, did you?  GPGME just
invokes "gpg" or "gpgsm" commands and communicates with them in the same
way as EasyPG does.

> - Is there any S/MIME support in EasyPG?
>   As gpg supports S/MIME since version 2.x this would be a great
>   enhancement.

Already there.  Gnus interface is also available.

Regards,
-- 
Daiki Ueno

Re: Syncing Gnus and Emacs repositories

[Richard Stallman]

    I think that is not so big change.  Because it requires just 7 files
    (epg*.el, epa*.el) to be included.

That is a big change.

If we install epg*, can we replace pgg* with a simple
interface to epg*?

Re: Syncing Gnus and Emacs repositories

[Miles Bader]

Reiner Steib <reinersteib+gmane@imap.cc> writes:
> IMHO, now it would more sense to merge these changes to EMACS_22_BASE
> (the 22.x release branch in Emacs' repository) instead.  Changes in
> v5-10 are only bug- and doc-fixes, so we should have all these changes
> in Emacs 22.2 as well.
>
> Miles, could you arrange this (unless there are objections)?

Sure.

-Miles

-- 
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